The difference between a prophesy and a prediction is a presumption.
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Statue of Daniel 2 (Abrahamic only)
- Thread starter BlandOatmeal
- Start date
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, I see that your post was very verbose -- and not actually dealing with what Daniel said in any productive way. You were addressing a question, though, and did a good job of it. I hope we can all put that stuff aside now. I conspired with Franklin to start this thread, so we could get into the details of Daniel's words. All you Moses lovers are welcome to join in. (said in friendly tone)
Shalom shalom
PS. Franklin, I have to eat lunch now. Catch you all later...
Thank you, and I'll try to find some time as we celebrate Hanukkah tomorrow night and then we have over 30 people over at our place for Thanksgiving. I'll have to come back here on Friday to try and regain my sanity.
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Hi, Metis. It'll just be my wife, my son and I tomorrow, and a little potluck and an "open house" this weekend. Living thousands of miles from family has its advantages.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, I can see where that has its advantages.
BTW, I got a Happy Hanukkah card today from a friend that lives in Seattle as I notice you live somewhere in the NW. Also, one of our young ladies from my synagogue now lives in Portland. As for me, I've never been to either, but I'd like to go to each and especially Vancouver-- I'm a Canuck at heart.
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Sleeppy, you completely misread me. I am not Jewish, and have no titles. I'm here, to discuss what is said in the Book of Daniel; that's all.
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Hello, Franklin.
SRC: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/World_500_BCE.png
You can see that there were major civilizations in India and China at the time, and a very large cultural area surrounding the Persian Empire. I don't think King Nebuchadnezzar cared much about what was going on in China and India: His world was built around the Fertile Crescent, which stretches in an arc from SW Iran into Egypt. In his day, Nebbie's kingdom of Babylon was the richest kingdom of the area. It arose, when the Babylonians revolted against their Assyrian overlords and then went on, in alliance with the Medes, to conquer their former masters. Egypt also gained independence from Assyria around this time, and Lydia (in western Turkey) had risen to become a rich kingdom -- rich, but not on the scale of Babylon. The Persians were subjects of the Medes, then replaced them as rulers of the Medo-Persian Empire. This empire conquered the king of Lydia, who joined the Persian king in conquering Babylon. The Persians then went on to conquer Egypt and much of Greece.
So you see, Nebbie really was the greatest king on earth at the time. He was overthrown by the Persians, who some 200 years later were overthrown by Alexander the Great. He died at the age of 29, and his kingdom was split between his generals. Each of them then had their own little empire, but they shared a mixed Greek-Barbarian culture called "Hellenism". Those kingdoms died, one at a time, and were swallowed up by the rising Romans in the west. To the east, the Parthians, barbaric people from Central Asia, overthrew the Persians. What was left of the Greeks to their east, in what is now Afghanistan and Tadjikistan, became Buddhists; and as such, they became part of Chinese and Indian history rather than Perso-Roman.
The Parthians were eventually overthrown by resurgent Persians; but the Persian Empire never rose to the standard of wealth and power of the Romans. The Roman world came under attack from barbarians to its north, who conquered Italy and the western provinces. The main part of the empire, though, centered on Constantinople (formerly Byzantium) continued until 1452.
The Romans and Persians were often at war; and at one point, after each had exhausted itself bloodying the other, the Arabs came in and took over Persia, Babylon, Assyria, Israel, Egypt, Afghanistan and more. The Arab ascendancy was contemporary with the Tang Dynasty of China, the Franks of Europe and several competing kingdoms in India. Both the Christians and the Jews at this time were largely split between the Byzantine, Frankish and Arab worlds.
In the centuries that followed, the Franks eventually became dominant, engendering the ruling houses of the European nations. The tipping of the balance was when the Frankish Crusaders conquered Jerusalem. In 1204, they briefly conquered Constantinople after losing most of their gains in the east. The center of Jewish life by that time had followed the Muslims to Spain, which was finally reconquered by the Christians in 1492 -- just before Columbus discovered America, and only a few years before the final collapse of the old Roman Empire.
In the meantime, the Pope and the Frankish king had gone into a partnership in 800 AD, in which the king was crowned the "Holy Roman Emperor" by the Pontiff. By and by, it declined in favor of independent successor states like France, Germany, Austria, etc.; and in 1802, it was dissolved. A few years later, after the defeat of Napoleon, Europe became ruled by "congresses" convened by the "great powers" Britain, Prussia, Austria and Russia. With the unifications of Germany and Italy, Prussia was transformed into the German Empire and the King of Sardinia became ruler of Italy. China, meanwhile, was overthrown by the Mongols and began a gradual decline vis a vis the West. India was conquered by the Muslims -- first the Turks, then the Mughals -- and finally became part of the British Empire. The former Arab world was smashed by the Mongols, and never regained its greatness. The most important power to arise from the ashes was the Ottoman Empire, which became the center of Sephardic Jewry.
The Great Powers of Europe expanded their rule, along with successor colonies in Australia, Africa and America to take over most of the world. During the Boxer Rebellion in 1902, the "Alliance of Eight" were the victors, consisting of the US, Britain, France, Russia, Austria, Prussia, Italy and Japan. After World War I, the "congress" system was largely replaced by the League of Nations, which later formed the basis for the UN.
That's the sweep of the history of the major world powers, in an unbroken line from the time of Nebuchadnezzar. I think that's all I have room for.
I never noticed that connection before. Being an outsider in a strange land seems to be an old and recurring theme in the Bible.
Here, let me give you a map of the empires, etc. in Daniel's time:
SRC: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/World_500_BCE.png
You can see that there were major civilizations in India and China at the time, and a very large cultural area surrounding the Persian Empire. I don't think King Nebuchadnezzar cared much about what was going on in China and India: His world was built around the Fertile Crescent, which stretches in an arc from SW Iran into Egypt. In his day, Nebbie's kingdom of Babylon was the richest kingdom of the area. It arose, when the Babylonians revolted against their Assyrian overlords and then went on, in alliance with the Medes, to conquer their former masters. Egypt also gained independence from Assyria around this time, and Lydia (in western Turkey) had risen to become a rich kingdom -- rich, but not on the scale of Babylon. The Persians were subjects of the Medes, then replaced them as rulers of the Medo-Persian Empire. This empire conquered the king of Lydia, who joined the Persian king in conquering Babylon. The Persians then went on to conquer Egypt and much of Greece.
So you see, Nebbie really was the greatest king on earth at the time. He was overthrown by the Persians, who some 200 years later were overthrown by Alexander the Great. He died at the age of 29, and his kingdom was split between his generals. Each of them then had their own little empire, but they shared a mixed Greek-Barbarian culture called "Hellenism". Those kingdoms died, one at a time, and were swallowed up by the rising Romans in the west. To the east, the Parthians, barbaric people from Central Asia, overthrew the Persians. What was left of the Greeks to their east, in what is now Afghanistan and Tadjikistan, became Buddhists; and as such, they became part of Chinese and Indian history rather than Perso-Roman.
The Parthians were eventually overthrown by resurgent Persians; but the Persian Empire never rose to the standard of wealth and power of the Romans. The Roman world came under attack from barbarians to its north, who conquered Italy and the western provinces. The main part of the empire, though, centered on Constantinople (formerly Byzantium) continued until 1452.
The Romans and Persians were often at war; and at one point, after each had exhausted itself bloodying the other, the Arabs came in and took over Persia, Babylon, Assyria, Israel, Egypt, Afghanistan and more. The Arab ascendancy was contemporary with the Tang Dynasty of China, the Franks of Europe and several competing kingdoms in India. Both the Christians and the Jews at this time were largely split between the Byzantine, Frankish and Arab worlds.
In the centuries that followed, the Franks eventually became dominant, engendering the ruling houses of the European nations. The tipping of the balance was when the Frankish Crusaders conquered Jerusalem. In 1204, they briefly conquered Constantinople after losing most of their gains in the east. The center of Jewish life by that time had followed the Muslims to Spain, which was finally reconquered by the Christians in 1492 -- just before Columbus discovered America, and only a few years before the final collapse of the old Roman Empire.
In the meantime, the Pope and the Frankish king had gone into a partnership in 800 AD, in which the king was crowned the "Holy Roman Emperor" by the Pontiff. By and by, it declined in favor of independent successor states like France, Germany, Austria, etc.; and in 1802, it was dissolved. A few years later, after the defeat of Napoleon, Europe became ruled by "congresses" convened by the "great powers" Britain, Prussia, Austria and Russia. With the unifications of Germany and Italy, Prussia was transformed into the German Empire and the King of Sardinia became ruler of Italy. China, meanwhile, was overthrown by the Mongols and began a gradual decline vis a vis the West. India was conquered by the Muslims -- first the Turks, then the Mughals -- and finally became part of the British Empire. The former Arab world was smashed by the Mongols, and never regained its greatness. The most important power to arise from the ashes was the Ottoman Empire, which became the center of Sephardic Jewry.
The Great Powers of Europe expanded their rule, along with successor colonies in Australia, Africa and America to take over most of the world. During the Boxer Rebellion in 1902, the "Alliance of Eight" were the victors, consisting of the US, Britain, France, Russia, Austria, Prussia, Italy and Japan. After World War I, the "congress" system was largely replaced by the League of Nations, which later formed the basis for the UN.
That's the sweep of the history of the major world powers, in an unbroken line from the time of Nebuchadnezzar. I think that's all I have room for.
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BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Don't get lost: There are two Vancouvers here -- one in Canada, and the other in Washington, across the River from Portland.
I won't tell you how nice it is where I live in Western Oregon. A few years ago, we made "Unwelcome cards" to discourage people from moving here. It's very scenic, but it rains a lot in the west, gets freezing cold/hot and dry in the east, and has a very high unemployment rate. We're sort of the Appalachians of the West.
Have you ever seen the "Frisco Kid"? That's us.
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BlandOatmeal
Active Member
While most of you are offline, I think I should start a new thread. The propehcy/ prediction of Daniel... let's get this straight first:
"Prophecy is a process in which one or more messages that have been communicated to a prophet[1] are then communicated to others. Such messages typically involve divine inspiration, interpretation, or revelation of conditioned events to come (cf. divine knowledge) as well as testimonies or repeated revelations that the world is divine.[citation needed] The process of prophecy especially involves reciprocal communication of the prophet with the (divine) source of the messages. Throughout history, clairvoyance has commonly been used and associated with prophecy"
-- Prophecy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
proph·e·cy (prf-s)
n. pl. proph·e·cies (-sz)
1.
a. An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will.
b. A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.
c. Such an inspired message or prediction transmitted orally or in writing.
2. The vocation or condition of a prophet.
3. A prediction.
[Middle English prophecie, from Old French, from Latin prophta, from Greek prophteia, from prophts, prophet; see prophet
-- prophecy - definition of prophecy by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Note the extremely small print, indicating that I don't care much about this stuff. "Prophet" is an ENGLISH word, not Hebrew; and Daniel fits the ENGLISH definition of a "prophet". If we were talking a different language, that would be a different matter.
All that said, let me continue my thought: The prophecies of Daniel speak about the succession of empires from Nebuchadnezzar's time, up to the Roman Empire. In order to deal with times AFTER the fall of that empire on Tuesday, 29 May 1453, one needs to consult the New Testament to find EXPLICIT descriptions -- Daniel just gives a broad overview of the development of the Roman world up to our day, whereas Revelation is very specific. This may be offensive to the Jews here, and I do not want to cause offense over this matter. I will therefore start a new thread for discussing the "empire" portions in the Book of Revelation.
"Prophecy is a process in which one or more messages that have been communicated to a prophet[1] are then communicated to others. Such messages typically involve divine inspiration, interpretation, or revelation of conditioned events to come (cf. divine knowledge) as well as testimonies or repeated revelations that the world is divine.[citation needed] The process of prophecy especially involves reciprocal communication of the prophet with the (divine) source of the messages. Throughout history, clairvoyance has commonly been used and associated with prophecy"
-- Prophecy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
proph·e·cy (prf-s)
n. pl. proph·e·cies (-sz)
1.
a. An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will.
b. A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.
c. Such an inspired message or prediction transmitted orally or in writing.
2. The vocation or condition of a prophet.
3. A prediction.
[Middle English prophecie, from Old French, from Latin prophta, from Greek prophteia, from prophts, prophet; see prophet
-- prophecy - definition of prophecy by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Note the extremely small print, indicating that I don't care much about this stuff. "Prophet" is an ENGLISH word, not Hebrew; and Daniel fits the ENGLISH definition of a "prophet". If we were talking a different language, that would be a different matter.
All that said, let me continue my thought: The prophecies of Daniel speak about the succession of empires from Nebuchadnezzar's time, up to the Roman Empire. In order to deal with times AFTER the fall of that empire on Tuesday, 29 May 1453, one needs to consult the New Testament to find EXPLICIT descriptions -- Daniel just gives a broad overview of the development of the Roman world up to our day, whereas Revelation is very specific. This may be offensive to the Jews here, and I do not want to cause offense over this matter. I will therefore start a new thread for discussing the "empire" portions in the Book of Revelation.
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
thats one way to write off a section of scripture which helps people identify the Messiah.... tell them its not scripture
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Daniels prophecies are quite amazing really.
Not only does he accurately foretell the time of the Messiahs arrival, but he also tells of the rise and fall of Alexander the Great.
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
Hello, Franklin.
I never noticed that connection before. Being an outsider in a strange land seems to be an old and recurring theme in the Bible.
Here, let me give you a map of the empires, etc. in Daniel's time:
SRC: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/World_500_BCE.png
You can see that there were major civilizations in India and China at the time, and a very large cultural area surrounding the Persian Empire. I don't think King Nebuchadnezzar cared much about what was going on in China and India: His world was built around the Fertile Crescent, which stretches in an arc from SW Iran into Egypt. In his day, Nebbie's kingdom of Babylon was the richest kingdom of the area. It arose, when the Babylonians revolted against their Assyrian overlords and then went on, in alliance with the Medes, to conquer their former masters. Egypt also gained independence from Assyria around this time, and Lydia (in western Turkey) had risen to become a rich kingdom -- rich, but not on the scale of Babylon. The Persians were subjects of the Medes, then replaced them as rulers of the Medo-Persian Empire. This empire conquered the king of Lydia, who joined the Persian king in conquering Babylon. The Persians then went on to conquer Egypt and much of Greece.
So you see, Nebbie really was the greatest king on earth at the time. He was overthrown by the Persians, who some 200 years later were overthrown by Alexander the Great. He died at the age of 29, and his kingdom was split between his generals. Each of them then had their own little empire, but they shared a mixed Greek-Barbarian culture called "Hellenism". Those kingdoms died, one at a time, and were swallowed up by the rising Romans in the west. To the east, the Parthians, barbaric people from Central Asia, overthrew the Persians. What was left of the Greeks to their east, in what is now Afghanistan and Tadjikistan, became Buddhists; and as such, they became part of Chinese and Indian history rather than Perso-Roman.
The Parthians were eventually overthrown by resurgent Persians; but the Persian Empire never rose to the standard of wealth and power of the Romans. The Roman world came under attack from barbarians to its north, who conquered Italy and the western provinces. The main part of the empire, though, centered on Constantinople (formerly Byzantium) continued until 1452.
The Romans and Persians were often at war; and at one point, after each had exhausted itself bloodying the other, the Arabs came in and took over Persia, Babylon, Assyria, Israel, Egypt, Afghanistan and more. The Arab ascendancy was contemporary with the Tang Dynasty of China, the Franks of Europe and several competing kingdoms in India. Both the Christians and the Jews at this time were largely split between the Byzantine, Frankish and Arab worlds.
In the centuries that followed, the Franks eventually became dominant, engendering the ruling houses of the European nations. The tipping of the balance was when the Frankish Crusaders conquered Jerusalem. In 1204, they briefly conquered Constantinople after losing most of their gains in the east. The center of Jewish life by that time had followed the Muslims to Spain, which was finally reconquered by the Christians in 1492 -- just before Columbus discovered America, and only a few years before the final collapse of the old Roman Empire.
In the meantime, the Pope and the Frankish king had gone into a partnership in 800 AD, in which the king was crowned the "Holy Roman Emperor" by the Pontiff. By and by, it declined in favor of independent successor states like France, Germany, Austria, etc.; and in 1802, it was dissolved. A few years later, after the defeat of Napoleon, Europe became ruled by "congresses" convened by the "great powers" Britain, Prussia, Austria and Russia. With the unifications of Germany and Italy, Prussia was transformed into the German Empire and the King of Sardinia became ruler of Italy. China, meanwhile, was overthrown by the Mongols and began a gradual decline vis a vis the West. India was conquered by the Muslims -- first the Turks, then the Mughals -- and finally became part of the British Empire. The former Arab world was smashed by the Mongols, and never regained its greatness. The most important power to arise from the ashes was the Ottoman Empire, which became the center of Sephardic Jewry.
The Great Powers of Europe expanded their rule, along with successor colonies in Australia, Africa and America to take over most of the world. During the Boxer Rebellion in 1902, the "Alliance of Eight" were the victors, consisting of the US, Britain, France, Russia, Austria, Prussia, Italy and Japan. After World War I, the "congress" system was largely replaced by the League of Nations, which later formed the basis for the UN.
That's the sweep of the history of the major world powers, in an unbroken line from the time of Nebuchadnezzar. I think that's all I have room for.
which goes to my first criticism of it being ethnocentric.
While I don't think that Nebuchadnezzar was too focus on expanding into India or China (I don't see why it would not have become a possibility once the west was conquered).
The interpretations certainly have an ethnocentric slant to it.
Mind you though at the time the Babylonian Empire was the greatest that there was, the Roman Empire is typically regarded in the west as the greatest empire to have ever existed. Though the Persian and Greek Empire certainly are runner ups.
But thanks for the history lesson, I'll look into it some more. Interesting stuff.
I see. Thanks.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
thats one way to write off a section of scripture which helps people identify the Messiah.... tell them its not scripture
Not at all. Scripture is scripture, therefore whether a narrative is dealing with a prophet or not is unimportant in that context. Being a "prophet" does not mean one forecasts the future, although about 2/3 of them did.
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
You might have missed Metis' point, Pegg. The Jews acknowlege the Book of Daniel as canonical ("scripture" can refer to ANY writing; I think you meant "canonical"). They simply group it with the writings rather than the prophets -- because Jews don't equate "prognosticators" with "prophets" the way Christians do. It's just a semantic difference.thats one way to write off a section of scripture which helps people identify the Messiah.... tell them its not scripture
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Hopefully, we will not get into "70 Weeks" prophecy of Daniel 9 here. Franklin wanted to talk about the statue, which is why I started this thread. There is a relationship between that statue and the beasts of Daniel 7, but I don't see any connection with Daniel 9. The latter has probably been thoroughly argued over on RF on both sides, and I just see it as a distraction here.
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
I agree that the prophecies of Daniel are ethnocentric; but I don't see how that's a criticism. They simply are what they are.
Rome was certainly the most powerful in its time and neighborhood, though the powerful Han Dynasty of China might have beaten Rome in a match -- if one could ever have been arranged. Rome's greatest legacy is not what it exhibited in its day, though, but the great intellectual and economic vigor of its daughter states such as Britain and the US. It's because of them, that the Roman alphabet is the standard of the Internet.
BlandOatmeal
Active Member
Glad you like it.
I live in Eugene, which started having minyons in the 1920s. We only had one shul for the next 70 years, a Conservative one. in the 1990s, it became Reconstructionist, and a small Conservative shul split from it, which is now "unaffiliated" for some reason. An Orthodox shul also popped up recently, and I think the Renewal Jews still meet in homes. As far as I know, all these groups have trouble making minyons. We're not waiting for Gene Wilder to arrive with his little Torah
; we have a few nice ones. Even a Messianic shul I was part of had a good used one from Turkey. The Orthodox scroll was vandalized a few years ago, when skinhead hooligans broke in. They went right for the scroll and the siddurs, but were never charged with a hate crime. The Reconstructionist shul was attacked a few years ago, with rocks inscribed with swastikas, so the Christians of the community formed a vigil the following week around the building to keep away the bad guys. If you want real small town Judaism, this is the place! Some of my friends grew up Reformed, but they're Messianic now. Two of the rabbis in town led congregations in the 70s in the "Counterculture Belt" of Northern California. We knew a lot of people in common, because that's the area where I met Jesus.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Thanks for the info on you and where you live, and it's ironic that you and I switched, and maybe we passed each other somewhere in the process. I used to teach Christian theology to adults for 14 years, and became a Jew by choice starting around 20 years ago (a looooong story), and my wife is Christian but has stopped going as of two months ago (not because of me). I also taught comparative religions for two years.
As far as the shuls here are concerned, they're pretty much hanging on, but the economic downturn here has been tough, and there definitely has been a drop in contributions. Our shul is doing quite well in terms of numbers and is actually slightly growing, but we've lost some members who had to leave because of jobs, and less money coming in has forced us to scale back some of our programs.
Shalom, and enjoy your Thanksgiving.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Daniel was most certainly one of them.
The rise and fall of future world powers such as Greece and Rome and the time of the arrival of the Messiah would certainly constitute him as such.