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Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
Second part 2 of 2:


Paul could not have meant malakos in the literal sense of 'soft', other than to apply a critical stereotype such as "softies", perhaps with Stoic and Hellenistic Jewish influences in the background. What makes the persons "soft" is unclear and unspecified. Some interpreters have argued that it could refer to a man who undertakes a passive sexual role, thus resembling a woman in practice. (32). That interpretation relies heavily on reading Leviticus 18:22 into the text. The Greek nuance could be given as 'effeminate’, which may be close to the meaning, as the KJV and ASV render the word. However, we have another interpretative problem here, for the KJV, 17th C. Elizabethan meaning of 'effeminate' may not carry the same meaning that we apply today. What is clear is that the term is derogatory and appeals to prejudice. Paul most likely used the word in the same way within a broadly based social connotation of ridicule of the effeminate person. (33) Such ridicule appealed to sexist prejudices of the time, in which being soft, lazy, cowardly or enjoying a life of luxury and ease were characterisations of things feminine. This is the proper way to render Matthew 11:8, also, where malakoi and malaka designate effeminate, "soft" persons, as found in king's houses ("queens"?) . However, if effeminacy was the intended Pauline usage, Attic Greek had available two other words that Paul could have used. These are androgunos, from which we derive the modern word 'androgyny', and thelubrios. Neither word was used by Paul so his meaning may have had broader connotations, suggesting a class of persons such as that carried by the term "'queers" or "queens" today.
In Plutarch's Erotikos the similar word, malthakos, is used in relation to passive sexuality in men. (34) Similar usage by the imperial physician, Caelius Aurelianus, shows that the word related to heterosexual men. (35) Thus malakos does not mean 'homosexual' or 'male prostitute.' It could be taken as a reference to effeminacy or perhaps to the passive partner in a pederastic relationship. However, this latter interpretation may be reading more into the word than Paul intended, for 'malakos' is not one of the usual words used to describe pederastic partners. These are the words 'erastes', (the lover), 'eromenos', (the beloved), and 'paidika' (the beloved 'boy' or youth). (36) Thus 'malakos' appears to be used by Paul as a technical term and its meaning is unclear. (37) The most likely rendering is ‘effeminate’ or ‘softies’, with distinctly derogatory, misogynous connotations.
Malakoi is followed by the rare word, arsenokoitai, which is more difficult to translate than malakoi. Morphologically it is a compound word: arseno - 'man' + koitai - 'lying the bed', thus the transliteral meaning is, 'man lying the bed'. The etymology of the word is problematic, however, being ambiguous as to whether the word means 'a man who lies the bed (with anyone)', in which the first part of the word, arsen- is the subject, or whether it means 'one who lies with men', with arsen- taken as the object. John Boswell takes the former, subjective usage of arsen, and translates arsenokoitai to mean 'male sexual agents', that is, active male prostitutes. (38) In this case it is not a specific reference to homosexuality, as such persons may service either sex. Boswell bases this on comparisons with other compound words beginning with arsen, in which the meaning 'man' is applied as subject, pointing out that the form arreno- is used where an objective sense exists. This pattern is not always followed in Greek, however, so homoerotic association with the word is not removed, necessarily.
Arsenokoites could have been derived from the Septuagint as a new word (neologism) coined by Paul based on Leviticus 20:13, which reads: kai hos an koimethe meta arsenos koiten gynaikos ... (and whoever lies with a man as with a woman... ) in which the words arsen and koite that come next to each other are joined to create a new word. In which case the objective sense of the arseno- compound may be used an the word rendered as 'one who lies with men'. In translating the word from the Greek LXX to the Latin Vulgate, Jerome followed this meaning and rendered it masculorum concubitores. Such usage does not of itself clear the ambiguity of the original Greek, however.
Looking behind the LXX, it has been argued that arsenokoites appears to be a compound of the translation of mishkav zakur ('lying of a male'), two Hebrew words that are used in Rabbinic literature to refer to same-sex, pederastic practice. (39) This is conjecture, since the Rabbinic term, mishkav zakur appears in written sources dating from well after Paul. Pederastic associations of the words certainly appear in Rabbinic and Early Christian writings that post-date Paul, also. (40) That does not mean that the words held that meaning for Paul. At best, the intentional meaning of the Greek words is unclear and three recent commentaries differ markedly in their interpretation of the words. (41) Lexicographically, it does not necessarily imply or deny that same-sex acts are involved. The word is therefore imprecise. However, it neither means 'sodomite,' as rendered in the NRSV, nor is the word properly to be translated as, 'a man who has intercourse with males', as rendered in some modern discussions of the usage in the Pauline texts. (42) To its shame, the revised version of Bauer's Greek-English Lexicon renders arsenokoites as, 'a male who practices homosexuality, pederast, sodomite'. Such renderings read more into the word than the Greek allows and perpetuate homophobic, heterosexist prejudices.
Arsenokoites is variously translated in English Bibles, following the objective sense discussed above. Thus, we read ‘thei that don leccherie with men’ (Wyclif); 'abusers of themselves with mankind' (Tyndale, Coverdale, Cranmer, Geneva Bible, KJV and ASV); and ‘the liers vvith mankinde’, (Douai-Rheims). Modern translations extend this view, rendering arsenokoites as 'male homosexual offenders, perverts' (NIV) and 'sodomites' (NRSV and JB). The "Good News Bible" (TEV) 1966, the Living Bible, 1971, and New English Bible, 1970, conflate malakoi and arsenokoites with the renderings as ‘homosexual perversion’ (TEV), 'homosexuals' (LB) and 'guilty... of homosexual perversion' (NEB). There is no evidence for such usage elsewhere in ancient Greek literature. To argue that the two words, malakos and arsenokoitai refer to passive and active partners in homosexual intercourse, belies the historical and lexicographical evidence and perpetuates a homophobic prejudice. (43) Either a grave error in mistranslation has occurred or a deliberate act of mistranslation has injected a bias into the texts. What once was a specific concern with justification through faith (Paul's concern in writing to Corinth), with certain rhetorical references that play on community prejudices of the time (Paul's series of reprobate lists- 1 Cor. 5:10; 5:11 and 6:9-10), has been accommodated to become a blanket condemnation of homosexuality. Graeco-Roman pederastic practices and/or prostitution may lay behind the text, but there is no reference to homosexuality generally or in a universal way that can be applied today.

....what? I'm sorry, could you repeat that?
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
So, let me understand this. Scholars who have devoted ther lives to the study of ancient languages and years toward translation of Biblical texts have gotten this wrong. Am I correct here?

What I find amazing is man's herculean efforts to reconcile ancient texts and their pronouncements on morality with modern society. But perhaps I am wrong. Is there an insight about these translations that indicts them?

please cite some scholars that state: The bible indicates homosexuality is wrong, scholars not fundamentalist christians. I will eat my words if you can, I am able to be wrong!

The fact that homosexuality is not mentioned once by Christ doesnt help the "God hates ****" brigade...

Some scholars would even go as far as saying David was Bi-sexual as he "loved Johnathon above all women".... and well, David was well liked enough to a) be annointed (christified) and b) supposedly his bloodline given to Jesus...
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
....what? I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

"There is no evidence for such usage elsewhere in ancient Greek literature. To argue that the two words, malakos and arsenokoitai refer to passive and active partners in homosexual intercourse, belies the historical and lexicographical evidence and perpetuates a homophobic prejudice."

Does more need to be said?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
If this makes me a liberal, then so be it. As for liberalism being absolute that is a far fetched notion. Literalism is so single-minded that I doubt that it could turn anyone you consider liberal to literalism. My contention is that what is written in the Bible must be scrutinized by assigned biblical guidelines, hermeneutics which will clarify what any Biblical passage really means. If that is a liberal interpretation, then so be it. I believe that makes liberal interpretations more accurate than a literalist's interpretation. It may or may not be the absolute truth but it is at least guided and an attempt at finding the truth. It remains open that any interpretation could change with more knowledge and greater insight into the culture of the time of the writings.

"Reality has a well-known liberal bias" ~ Stephen Colbert. :D
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Finding truth can be very elusive when you do not know what to look for, unless you want to prove that your ideas are correct, for you can make the bible say anything, you can even justify Cain or the Devil, But if you know the mind of Christ you know what is aloud and what is not, if homosexuality is not a sin and is not immoral, then abortion is not a sin and it is not immoral, yes now we talking about euthanasia, who said that is a sin and it is immoral, when we only want to put them out of their misery and pain, and the handicapped they take a lot of looking after, won't be better to put them also out of their pain, every one will be better off, and we will save a lots of money; and so on and so forth, can you see morality has to be upheld or we loose our humanity entirely.

None of those things are inherently immoral, because they don't harm anyone. Abortion is murder, but squashing a mosquito is worse. Euthanasia may be seen as suicide, but we do it to animals all the time.

Sometimes you have to choose which is the lesser evil when good is impossible.

you are a pastor you said, i cannot imagine what you preach about, for if you think the way you do, you are not qualified to correct the stray sheep.
He seems quite qualified to me. He has studied the words AND their contexts quite extensively. I put more faith in someone's research than in another person's untrained gut.

The truth cannot be altered and is eternal, the following note will explain to you why.
Because “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.

In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life
..."Word" is not that accurate a translation of logos. A better translation would probably be "Source." So Christ is the eternal SOURCE. "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3)

Truth, Way, and Life, can all mean the same thing, and is conveyed through what he teaches. He teaches(and therefore is) Truth, the following of which is the Way to Life. And no one can come to the Father God except by following what Christ taught.

Learning the language and context of the text is a far more efficient way of learning what the Bible is talking about than just relying on your gut.
 
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Natassia

New Member
The concept of being born homosexual is not in the Bible. Only homosexual acts are.

I am not going to say that a homosexual is evil simply because he is a homosexual. There are plenty of homosexuals who are far more "Christian" than many of the heterosexual church-goers out there.

However, what if a pedophile came up to you and said, "Ever since I hit puberty and experienced sexual arousal, I've always been attracted to very young children. I was born this way; I was never abused. How can you force me to deny my own natural tendencies?"

What would you say?

(And the excuse that having sex with children is wrong won't fly if you believe in moral and cultural relativism: there are plenty of cultures of the ancient and even modern world who believe it is okay to marry a young girl to an old man.)
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
The concept of being born homosexual is not in the Bible. Only homosexual acts are.

I am not going to say that a homosexual is evil simply because he is a homosexual. There are plenty of homosexuals who are far more "Christian" than many of the heterosexual church-goers out there.

However, what if a pedophile came up to you and said, "Ever since I hit puberty and experienced sexual arousal, I've always been attracted to very young children. I was born this way; I was never abused. How can you force me to deny my own natural tendencies?"

What would you say?

(And the excuse that having sex with children is wrong won't fly if you believe in moral and cultural relativism: there are plenty of cultures of the ancient and even modern world who believe it is okay to marry a young girl to an old man.)

Please cite where in the bible it mentions homosexual acts...

thank you :eek:
 

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
I am not going to say that a homosexual is evil simply because he is a homosexual. There are plenty of homosexuals who are far more "Christian" than many of the heterosexual church-goers out there.

However, what if a pedophile came up to you and said, "Ever since I hit puberty and experienced sexual arousal, I've always been attracted to very young children. I was born this way; I was never abused. How can you force me to deny my own natural tendencies?"

What would you say?
I would say that the two situations aren't even remotely related for the rather obvious reason of consent. The latter involves engaging in behavior that by definition lacks legal consent.

Tying the two together looks like a smear tactic.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie


However, what if a pedophile came up to you and said, "Ever since I hit puberty and experienced sexual arousal, I've always been attracted to very young children. I was born this way; I was never abused. How can you force me to deny my own natural tendencies?"

What would you say?

(And the excuse that having sex with children is wrong won't fly if you believe in moral and cultural relativism: there are plenty of cultures of the ancient and even modern world who believe it is okay to marry a young girl to an old man.)

The very fact that you can equate sex between two consenting adults and sex between an adult and a child who cannot legally give consent shows an undeniable ignorance of morality.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Well as if you did not know, marriage between a man and a woman is the norm, sex between a man and a woman is the norm, when you say that it is the norm that is when you will find opposition to your thinking, that is all.

Then you know very little about history....because it IS the norm. It may not have been considered "moral" or social norm....but it is a norm. Homosexuality has been around for a very, very long time. This isn't some sort of fad that stemmed from the 60s and 70s. Your bible wouldn't even be "addressing it"...if it wasn't considered a social norm by people back then.

You see it as abnormal because I'm guessing you never grew up in a gay/lesbian household but if you did...you'd find it to be normal.....unless, of course, you were one of those who "found" religion....


Yes that is why I said look around you, morality is on a knife edge.

And it has.....pretty much nothing to do with the gay and lesbian community.

they are not a threat to the community by them self, but if we lower the moral standard until there is no moral standard that will become a problem, morality is a spiritual law, if we do away with that law we will be much the less as persons.

Are you suggesting gays and lesbians have no "morals"....?...Be careful before you answer that one. I submit they do. Talk about moral standards...just check out the heterosexual community..with their lying to their spouse, cheating on them, beating them, stealing from them....it's no wonder the divorce rate amongst "heterosexuals" are high. I heard it mentioned that half or over half of marriages end in divorce within the first year. Some are hard pressed to make it six months......So don't put so much faith in the morality of the heterosexual community.....cause they seem to be the culprits of the majority of this "immoral" behavior going around...


We do not have to use religion: take an homosexual couple that has an affair on the side would you call that person immoral because he o she had another partner?

That's not even the point...and truth be told....It would make no difference to me seeing as though our courts here in the US don't get tangled up in who's cheating on who. And frankly......it's NONE of my business if one is cheating on the other.

There are some in this world involved in open relationships as well as "swingers".....It's not for me but obviously, those who live that lifestyle see no immorality in it....and if they don't have a problem with it....why should I???

 
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Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
The concept of being born homosexual is not in the Bible. Only homosexual acts are.

I am not going to say that a homosexual is evil simply because he is a homosexual. There are plenty of homosexuals who are far more "Christian" than many of the heterosexual church-goers out there.

However, what if a pedophile came up to you and said, "Ever since I hit puberty and experienced sexual arousal, I've always been attracted to very young children. I was born this way; I was never abused. How can you force me to deny my own natural tendencies?"

What would you say?

(And the excuse that having sex with children is wrong won't fly if you believe in moral and cultural relativism: there are plenty of cultures of the ancient and even modern world who believe it is okay to marry a young girl to an old man.)

This is a weak comparison. Most cases I've seen of pedophiles have to do with them preying on the youth.....

It's a difference when you have pedophiles going after the youth and something totally different when you have two mature consenting adults who want to be treated as a couple. From what I can tell....gays and lesbians aren't out to get your kids.....and "turn them gay"....:sarcastic
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I cant even believe some are so ignorant still to compare a child being abused sexually to homosexualtiy.

Why is that leap taken?

If I committ adulerty (bad comparison but go with me on it)..which is clearly forbidden...and I divorce my husband AFTER I commit adultery which God HATES ..am I compared to a child molester?

JESUS!

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
There is clearly something wrong with a person who cant distinguish child rape to homosexual love..

Sorry if thats judmental..But I stand by that statement and I will tell you somethign Im SICK and DISGUSTED at the comparison.

It makes me angry..

Love

Dallas
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Exactly....

Pedophilia is NOT homo or hetro sexual....

If one looks at the facts also...

most "pedophiles" identify themselves as hetero not homo sexual.

...

Most pedophilia to my understanding is straight men abusing minor females.

And Im talking about taking the whole group and get a %.

Not the actual amount of occurnece in #'s..% of the group that has these tendencies.

The bottom line there is nothing "inherrent" that makes a homosexaul more likey to abuse a child sexually or otherwise.

Love

Dallas
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
Then you know very little about history....because it IS the norm. It may not have been considered "moral" or social norm....but it is a norm. Homosexuality has been around for a very, very long time. This isn't some sort of fad that stemmed from the 60s and 70s. Your bible wouldn't even be "addressing it"...if it wasn't considered a social norm by people back then.

You see it as abnormal because I'm guessing you never grew up in a gay/lesbian household but if you did...you'd find it to be normal.....unless, of course, you were one of those who "found" religion....
Yes Tarzan also grew up with the ape, and he acted like them, it was normal to him.


And it has.....pretty much nothing to do with the gay and lesbian community.
We all are guilty for not upholding morality at times, but guy and lesbian community have became professionals at it; no offense intended.

Are you suggesting gays and lesbians have no "morals"....?...Be careful before you answer that one. I submit they do. Talk about moral standards...just check out the heterosexual community..with their lying to their spouse, cheating on them, beating them, stealing from them....it's no wonder the divorce rate amongst "heterosexuals" are high. I heard it mentioned that half or over half of marriages end in divorce within the first year. Some are hard pressed to make it six months......So don't put so much faith in the morality of the heterosexual community.....cause they seem to be the culprits of the majority of this "immoral" behavior going around...
every one has morals, even a contract murderer has the moral to honor his contract to kill someone. the issue here is this; is the morality that you have in agreement with God's morality?



That's not even the point...and truth be told....It would make no difference to me seeing as though our courts here in the US don't get tangled up in who's cheating on who. And frankly......it's NONE of my business if one is cheating on the other.
You do not see the implications that it will have on families order and relationships.
There are some in this world involved in open relationships as well as "swingers".....It's not for me but obviously, those who live that lifestyle see no immorality in it....and if they don't have a problem with it....why should I???
Your mind has to be in a scramble egg state for you to think the why you do, I can only quote from a good book what has happened to you, for we read in Romans 1: 21 to 32
21 BUT even though ALL MEN knew God, SOME did not honour him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their CONSCIENCE might be dishonoured WITHIN them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the women and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own PERSONALITY the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things, which are not proper.
29 being filled with all unrighteousness,
30 slanderers, arrogant, boastful,
31 without understanding untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful.
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
How can anyone say homosexuality is normal is beond me. I must be the one the is indecent, God help me.
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
The concept of being born homosexual is not in the Bible. Only homosexual acts are.

I am not going to say that a homosexual is evil simply because he is a homosexual. There are plenty of homosexuals who are far more "Christian" than many of the heterosexual church-goers out there.

However, what if a pedophile came up to you and said, "Ever since I hit puberty and experienced sexual arousal, I've always been attracted to very young children. I was born this way; I was never abused. How can you force me to deny my own natural tendencies?"

What would you say?

(And the excuse that having sex with children is wrong won't fly if you believe in moral and cultural relativism: there are plenty of cultures of the ancient and even modern world who believe it is okay to marry a young girl to an old man.)

Wow, you really have no idea what moral relativism is, do you?

Here, let me help you:

In philosophy moral relativism is the position that moral or ethical propositions do not reflect objective and/or universal moral truths, but instead make claims relative to social, cultural, historical or personal circumstances.


Moral relativism does not state that anything that has ever been considered permissible for anyone is permissible for everyone, it simply makes the observation that within any given culture, the subtle social agreement known as "morality" is influenced entirely by the social norms of that particular culture and not by some universal law of "right" and "wrong".

Within our culture, we consider it wrong to marry young girls to old men. Therefore it is "wrong". Was it "wrong" when our ancestors did it? You'd have to ask them. My Russian great grandma got married at 15, to a merchant she had only ever seen through a crack in the wall, and she seemed OK with it. It was, after all, her choice. She could have said no, but she said he had a nice smile.

Within our culture, we do not consider it wrong for consenting adults to enter into relationships regardless of their gender. Was it "wrong" when our ancestors thought it was 'abnormal'? You'd have to ask them, but keep in mind that they were not in possession of the facts - i.e. that lots of humans are born that way, and that nearly every species in nature engages in same sex bonding and mating behavior.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Yes Tarzan also grew up with the ape, and he acted like them, it was normal to him.


So?


We all are guilty for not upholding morality at times, but guy and lesbian community have became professionals at it; no offense intended.

I've seen no evidence of that.

every one has morals, even a contract murderer has the moral to honor his contract to kill someone. the issue here is this; is the morality that you have in agreement with God's morality?

I doubt something as petty as "morality" would be of any concern to God.

You do not see the implications that it will have on families order and relationships.

Of course not, because there AREN'T ANY.

Your mind has to be in a scramble egg state for you to think the why you do, I can only quote from a good book what has happened to you, for we read in
Romans 1: 21 to 32
21 BUT even though ALL MEN knew God, SOME did not honour him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their CONSCIENCE might be dishonoured WITHIN them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the women and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own PERSONALITY the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things, which are not proper.
29 being filled with all unrighteousness,
30 slanderers, arrogant, boastful,
31 without understanding untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful.
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
How can anyone say homosexuality is normal is beond me. I must be the one the is indecent, God help me.

You are not indecent; just ill-informed.

And yet again, you use Paul to try and explain yourself. You should know by now that many of us do not take his writings seriously or hold him as authoritative.
 
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