Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.

[free spirit]

To Mr. cheese

Quote:
Originally Posted by free spirit
Yes Tarzan also grew up with the ape, and he acted like them, it was normal to him.



So?

He is attempting to compare homosexuality to bestiality...or dehumanizing homosexuals into animals and non homosapiens. This is a standard technique for a bigot to rationalize their hatred.

No I am not; But if you frequent a group of people you became the same as them.
Adolf Hitler of course famously did the exact same thing.... one merely ahs to look at the huge propoganda machine created by joseph goebbels.


One should also note, Tarzan is a FICTIONAL character. Homosexuals, as living breathing homosapiensa are not fictional characters in books and tv/movies.


"The Jews are undoubtedly a race.
But they are not human."

--Adolf Hitler

 

[Mr Cheese]

I am only the messenger boy, yes he has already sort you out, I am the last warning.

nothing more needs to be said, you have disappeared up your own ego...

I dub thee a pointless personage to talk to....

akin to getting blood from a stone

........
A clay bowl as my only wealth, a robe that does not tempt the robbers,
Dwelling exempt from fear, and careless of my body.


Alone a man is born, and quite alone he also meets his death; This private anguish no one shares; and friends can only bar true welfare.



--The Practice of Introversion

 

[Dirty Penguin]

So?[/color][/size]



I've seen no evidence of that.



I doubt something as petty as "morality" would be of any concern to God.



Of course not, because there AREN'T ANY.



You are not indecent; just ill-informed.

And yet again, you use Paul to try and explain yourself. You should know by now that many of us do not take his writings seriously or hold him as authoritative.

Thank you...Thank you so much for responding before me. Because I knew it was a matter of time before he whipped out his bible......

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Others may not take Paul seriously but I can't take a literalist's interpretation of Paul seriously. What you are doing is throwing your absolute literalist's view at others as if you are better than them because you are Christian.

If I make available an interpretation, you condemn me and state that I am hopeless because I misrepresent the Word of God. I thought the Catholics were bad by declaring that they are the true, one and only catholic church. I don't speak in absolutes and any interpretation of the Bible I have today may change tomorrow. In my estimation, the Bible is a living Bible for no one understands what God's Word says. We can only interpret God's Word to mean something that establishes a relational humanity.

He is judging from his religious point of view.....and this is what I said is the problem. He would be happy to inflict his views, dogma...on those who do not share it....

 

[free spirit]

He is judging from his religious point of view.....and this is what I said is the problem. He would be happy to inflict his views, dogma...on those who do not share it....

No, I am not, and I am not inflicting my dogma on anyone. But I am putting my point of view as plainly and as gently as I can.
In contrast offensive words have been used against me because I do not share your views.

 

[free spirit]

As to global warming, this is a natural cyclical event. While our actions may be accelerating the warming, we cannot "stop" the event itself.

Yes last time was caused by a volcanic eruption,

Not sure what "foundations" of society you feel are being chipped away.
Was our "society" built upon the foundation of intolerance? Ignorance? Bigotry?

no our society or any successful society is build on honesty integrity and morals beyond reproach. after that there came along those that want to corrupt what is good.

As for your statement of "the Muslims will be in power", this is simply more fear mongering. And an insult to to Islam in general.
BTW, how do you get to the "the Muslims will be in power" with the base of giving homosexuals the right to marry?

And when the corruption become total any society collapses, homosexuality is only one part of the corruption. and when the collapse is total then and only then a new society will emerge again with good foundation values. the Muslims have very ugly punishments to those who they consider immoral, the Muslim religion is on the increase despite them killing innocent people.

Yes I have, and I have studied some of it. Natural disasters, political corruption, war, constant invasion, succession disputes, religious division, and class division have all played roles in many collapses.
That is not history, that is unproven reveled revelation.

Even if morality or lack of it cannot be seen, it is right through the event.

You have yet to tell me how giving Gays and Lesbians the equal right to marry will affect my marriage, our family order, or my relationship with my wife and children?

No it will not effect your relationship, but it will effect your children or your grand children.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Yes last time was caused by a volcanic eruption,

Source?

no our society or any successful society is build on honesty integrity and morals beyond reproach. after that there came along those that want to corrupt what is good.

Our society was built upon morals beyond reproach?
Source?

And when the corruption become total any society collapses, homosexuality is only one part of the corruption. and when the collapse is total then and only then a new society will emerge again with good foundation values.

Once again, what is the source of your information on the collapse of certain societies?

the Muslims have very ugly punishments to those who they consider immoral, the Muslim religion is on the increase despite them killing innocent people.

As does the Christian religion, when literalists take OT punishment as being Gods law.

Even if morality or lack of it cannot be seen, it is right through the event.No it will not effect your relationship, but it will effect your children or your grand children.

So you still have no backing or confirmed information considering your claim?

 

[starlite]

I God is the Judge, not you... If God does indeed hate homosexuals, and gay marriage, you know.... he'll sort it out.

What did Jesus command? That we love one another.

1Corinthians6:9,10
9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.

Evidently to be washed clean these individuals were no longer conducting themselves as unrighteous persons. As for Jesus' command to love one another (John 13:35)...this kind of love would be shown among the brotherhood of Christ's followers. It differs from the love shown to those outside the brotherhood.

1Corinthians 15:33 warns of bad associations so what kind of love should be show when loving our neighbor? A·ga′pe, which carries the meaning of love guided, or governed, by principle. It may or may not include affection and fondness. Although distinguished by respect for principle, a·ga′pe is not unfeeling; otherwise it would not differ from cold justice. But it is not ruled by feeling or sentiment; it never ignores principle. Christians rightly show a·ga′pe toward others for whom they may feel no affection or fondness, doing so for the welfare of those persons. Yet, though not feeling affection, they do feel compassion and sincere concern for such fellow humans, to the limits and in the way that righteous principles allow and direct.

 

[Quagmire]

Yes Tarzan also grew up with the ape, and he acted like them, it was normal to him.

Tarzan is a fictional character. You know that, right?

We all are guilty for not upholding morality at times, but guy and lesbian community have became professionals at it;

Wait, they actually get paid to be gay?

no offense intended.

No worries, I don't think anybody'll ever accuse you of being unintentionally offensive (unintentionally funny, maybe).

How can anyone say homosexuality is normal is beond me. I must be the one the is indecent, God help me.

And his eyes began to open...

 

[free spirit]

I am only the messenger boy, yes he has already sort you out, I am the last warning.

nothing more needs to be said, you have disappeared up your own ego...

No ego here, for I personally have nothing to uphold as I am what I am only through his grace.

I dub thee a pointless personage to talk to....

akin to getting blood from a stone

Yes I understand you dub me pointless because I do not compromise righteousness, Ho yes you are getting blood (life) from me because what I am telling you Leeds to real life in eternity.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Christians rightly show a·ga′pe toward others for whom they may feel no affection or fondness, doing so for the welfare of those persons. Yet, though not feeling affection, they do feel compassion and sincere concern for such fellow humans, to the limits and in the way that righteous principles allow and direct.

So not allowing certain members of society legal rights, over health care, tax benefits and other issues...is an act of agape love?

Puhlease



I drink tea
And forget the world's noise

--Zen Proverb

 

[Mr Cheese]

Yes I understand you dub me pointless because I do not compromise righteousness, Ho yes you are getting blood (life) from me because what I am telling you Leeds to real life in eternity.

no I dub you pointless because your views are narrow... narrow to the point when it is like someone who chops their leg off, refuses medical attention and eats soup.

But I understand the narrow of mind...
most homosapiens are cattle really....

Schuon says it well, in that such hellfire and damnation that is spouted by many are..
well...
"silly"

but there...

When Christ -in renewing the Law of Sinai, which he came to “fulfill” and not to “destroy”
– teaches the love of God, he distinguishes between “heart”, “soul”, “strength”( Torah: “might&#8221,
and “mind”; this “love” thus excludes no faculty that unites with God,
and it cannot be merely one term of an opposition, as when love and knowledge confront each other.
If by the word “love” the Torah and Gospel express above all the idea of “union” or “desire for “union”,
they make it clear by the adjectives that follow,
that this tendency includes diverse modes in keeping with the diversity of man’s nature;
hence it is necessary to say, not that love alone draws towards God, but rather that only what draws towards God is love.




–Frithjof Schuon (Gnosis divine Wisdom)

 

[free spirit]

When Christ -in renewing the Law of Sinai, which he came to “fulfill” and not to “destroy”
– teaches the love of God, he distinguishes between “heart”, “soul”, “strength”( Torah: “might”),

In Galatians 5: 22 to 25, we read,"But the fruits of the spirit is love joy, peace, patience, kindness goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."
So Mr Cheese, if you do the above things you fulfill the law, as Christ did. And if you want to belong to him, all you have to do is crucify your flesh by denying its passions and desires.

and “mind”; this “love” thus excludes no faculty that unites with God,
and it cannot be merely one term of an opposition, as when love and knowledge confront each other.
If by the word “love” the Torah and Gospel express above all the idea of “union” or “desire for “union”,
they make it clear by the adjectives that follow,
that this tendency includes diverse modes in keeping with the diversity of man’s nature;
hence it is necessary to say, not that love alone draws towards God, but rather that only what draws towards God is love.

You should know that love is the character of God. And that love is expressed by us in the following manner. 1st. Corinthians 13: 4 to 8; we read, "Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act umbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. love never fails."
Again Mr Cheese if you do all of the above you are one with God, there is no other way in which you can be any closer.

 

[strange]

In Galatians 5: 22 to 25, we read,"But the fruits of the spirit is love joy, peace, patience, kindness goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."
So Mr Cheese, if you do the above things you fulfill the law, as Christ did. And if you want to belong to him, all you have to do is crucify your flesh by denying its passions and desires.

You should know that love is the character of God. And that love is expressed by us in the following manner. 1st. Corinthians 13: 4 to 8; we read, "Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act umbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. love never fails."
Again Mr Cheese if you do all of the above you are one with God, there is no other way in which you can be any closer.

All these things, the catalogue of virtues, are instilled virtues. God needs no help by us to apply these virtues. The virtues are within us all.

What needs to be understood here is that this catalogue is this goal that I mentioned in my last post on "Morality." Especially when one reads the catalogue of vices. I once wrote, "The catalogue of vices and virtues is the correct categorization in the determination as to whether the above are immoral sexual acts." The above, sexual acts begins with saying, "Simply, homosexuals may or may not be immoral [sinful]." The same is true about business, helping professionals, one's work. And this list can go on.

If we were to take the short list of catalogue of vices and equate that list with only the acts they define; then we have wrongly interpreted God's Word to mean only those acts. But the catalogue does not only address those specific acts, instead the catalogue addresses the behaviour that relates to all sin. The catalogue encompasses all behaviours. Like avoiding family or wife by being a workaholic. Or having an affair. Both demonstrate avoidance, deceit, lies, etc.

Since virtues, whether mental or moral are intimately tied to human reason and prudence one can begin to see that which we, as humans, are created in the likeness of God's goodness. It is our lot to help one another. It is our lot for prudent morals. Morals with goals to govern ethics and laws.

 

[free spirit]

All these things, the catalogue of virtues, are instilled virtues. God needs no help by us to apply these virtues. The virtues are within us all.

What needs to be understood here is that this catalogue is this goal that I mentioned in my last post on "Morality." Especially when one reads the catalogue of vices. I once wrote, "The catalogue of vices and virtues is the correct categorization in the determination as to whether the above are immoral sexual acts." The above, sexual acts begins with saying, "Simply, homosexuals may or may not be immoral [sinful]." The same is true about business, helping professionals, one's work. And this list can go on.

If we were to take the short list of catalogue of vices and equate that list with only the acts they define; then we have wrongly interpreted God's Word to mean only those acts. But the catalogue does not only address those specific acts, instead the catalogue addresses the behaviour that relates to all sin. The catalogue encompasses all behaviours. Like avoiding family or wife by being a workaholic. Or having an affair. Both demonstrate avoidance, deceit, lies, etc.

Since virtues, whether mental or moral are intimately tied to human reason and prudence one can begin to see that which we, as humans, are created in the likeness of God's goodness. It is our lot to help one another. It is our lot for prudent morals. Morals with goals to govern ethics and laws.

Your response is vaguely relevant to what we are discussing, could you use please layman's language so i can follow your ideas.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Your response is vaguely relevant to what we are discussing, could you use please layman's language so i can follow your ideas.

He's saying morals and dogmas are ultimatly human...

of course there is the arguemnt, where does God end and man begin....

but people such as yourself generally deal with duality

God is X, something that isnt X isnt God...

this enables you to point fingers at others, cast judgement, preach hatred
and at work kill, torture and commite henious acts towards people...

because they are unbeleivers, or evil, or not of God... that is the conclusion of your thinking, how it is taken to the extreme. Of course instead you are largely just blindly following badly translated words written 2-5 thousand years ago... badly translated and often re-written with bias...

it is a fact most abrahamic religion's sexual penalties, prhibitions come from the middle ages....

for example did you know Jews originally lived together, "in sin"... before marriage.

But as for the actual matter in hand. People (for that is what homosexuals ARE) want to get married, show their commitement to each other publically. Enjoy rights and privalages that western society entrusts only to the married (the simple fact is much of society's benefits are geared toward beign married).

You are unable to seperate dogma from law or sense. But I should give up really...

 

[Mr Cheese]

In Galatians 5: 22 to 25, we read,"But the fruits of the spirit is love joy, peace, patience, kindness goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."
So Mr Cheese, if you do the above things you fulfill the law, as Christ did. And if you want to belong to him, all you have to do is crucify your flesh by denying its passions and desires.

You should know that love is the character of God. And that love is expressed by us in the following manner. 1st. Corinthians 13: 4 to 8; we read, "Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act umbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. love never fails."
Again Mr Cheese if you do all of the above you are one with God, there is no other way in which you can be any closer.

But love acts as a messenger to say homosexuals cant get married as they are evil, huh?

 

[Riverwolf]

for example did you know Jews originally lived together, "in sin"... before marriage.

You mean romantically?

Where did you learn that?

 

[Mr Cheese]

You mean romantically?

Where did you learn that?

my girlfriend...

she's a coptic christian (egyptian)...

english is like her 10th lagnuage or something....(she can read coptic, greek, hebrew etc)

she was nearly a carmelite nun...

so lets just say, she's studied the bible a bit, and then some!

..........
Beyond the literalism there is always more...

A religion's book is never the entire religion, people like the australian personage will never understand that.

It is like driving a car and being hit by a bus. Then screaming, wait, that is not allowed to happen, it is not in the manual!:sad:

 

[Dirty Penguin]

No, I am not, and I am not inflicting my dogma on anyone. But I am putting my point of view as plainly and as gently as I can.
In contrast offensive words have been used against me because I do not share your views.

I'm not sure I, personally, used any negative language toward you. If I have please point them out.

As far as your opinion....well you are entitled to that....it's just when your opinion is to be made public policy that's the problem. If all that it is, is just "your opinion"....then there is nothing wrong with allowing same sex marriages and equal rights for gays and lesbians. The legalization "WILL NOT" affect you in no way.......I'm mean no one from the heterosexual community has been able to show any adverse affects of any kind...allowing same sex marriage and equal rights for them.