Good post.
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Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.
- Thread starter Enlighten
- Start date
Good post.
This is a good point. The facts as we know them change. Nothing is written in stone. I liken it to a living constitution. And I consider as a Christian that the Word of God is a living Word. Nothing is absolute except that I believe in God.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
Sorry I am in arror again, but I did believe that this is a religious forum.:foot::foot::foot:
Indeed, it is. But you used Paul in reference not to something about religion, but how you judge a person's condition to be.
Knowing that many of us do not take Paul seriously, surely you should have known that quoting him in that regard was a waste of time?
free spirit
Well-Known Member
The devil also believe, and his believe is that evil is absolutely normal. nothing wrong with it, actually those who do that should be given a medal of honor. All the rest are misinformed and ignorant of the facts.
Book, chapter, and verse, please.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Please explain how giving Gays and Lesbians the equal right to marry will affect my marriage, our family order, or my relationship with my wife and children?
Others may not take Paul seriously but I can't take a literalist's interpretation of Paul seriously. What you are doing is throwing your absolute literalist's view at others as if you are better than them because you are Christian.
If I make available an interpretation, you condemn me and state that I am hopeless because I misrepresent the Word of God. I thought the Catholics were bad by declaring that they are the true, one and only catholic church. I don't speak in absolutes and any interpretation of the Bible I have today may change tomorrow. In my estimation, the Bible is a living Bible for no one understands what God's Word says. We can only interpret God's Word to mean something that establishes a relational humanity.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
That is your problem, the living word is Jesus Christ, and not the bible, the bible is the written word. You see Christ send his Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost and his spirit is still with us, to guide us into all truth. I got news for you, By the grace of God I do understand the New Testament the following is an example of my understanding.
(VII) Throughout the ages many pagan religions adopted various forms of sacrifice to appease God. Some even went to the extreme repugnance of offering human sacrifice, like virgins or infants whose body was unblemished.
The Jews however offered animal sacrifices not to appease God as it were, but to make atonement for their sins; in other words, by their faith in a promise given to them by God, they covered their sins for a time with a substitute life “blood” of an unblemished animal, until those who believed in the promise of the coming messiah would-be redeemed by the unblemished sacrifice of the Christ.
Christianity therefore was born through the sacrifice of the unblemished life of the messiah, his unblemished life and eventual sinless death was necessary, for in so doing he fulfilled the law of God, hence enabling him to do three wonderful things for the world, which are: 1st Reverse what Adam did,and Give justification of life to all of humanity, 2nd Forgive the sins of past, present and future faithful generations, and 3rd Give the gift of his grace to those who would believe and receive the Holy Spirit.
However, some of those who receive the gift of his grace have been invited to grow and mature in that gift, for we read in Luke 9 – 23, “And he was saying to them all, if anyone wishes to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.” But somehow that invitation to deny one-self is tested by the strength of his or her personal faith, for we must keep present that it is not compulsory to literally follow in his footsteps, for it is written: “If anyone wishes to come after me” and that statement is just, because we are all individuals whose personality and strength differ in many ways. In other words, it is compulsory to “love your neighbour like yourself,” which is the basic requirement if we truly like to be Christians. And then if anyone wishes there is the devotional sacrifice to go after him.
This devotional sacrifice of worship to God is an exceptional way of self-denial with which we get closer to our Lord for we read in 1st Corinthians 7 – 32 to 38, “But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord;
33 but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and his interests are divided.
34 And the woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
35 And this I say for your own benefit; not to put a restraint upon you, but to promote what is seemly, and to secure undivided devotion to the Lord.
36 But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly towards his celibacy, if he should be of full age, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let him marry.
37 But he who stand firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own body, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own body chaste, he will do well.
38 So then both he who gives his own body in marriage does well, and he who does not give himself in marriage will do better.”
As you can see the last three verses 36 – 37 – 38, with the inserted Italics are the obvious restorations needed, which enable us to understand the true and intended meaning of the previous verses 32 – 33 – 34 – 35, because if any person male or female is willingly prepared and able to freely undertake the sacrifice of celibacy as their sacrifice of worship, that sacrifice is acceptable to God, for we read in Matthew 19 – 10 to 12, “The disciples said to him, if the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.” But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this let him accept it.”
And Romans 12 – 1, also urges us to keep our body holy by saying, “I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.”
We should be able to accept the above restorations after we have investigated the facts for ourselves and become fully convinced that today’s bibles description of the above three verses were undeniably distorted. So, let us read from the “New American Standard Bible” the three verses in question of 1st Corinthians 7 – 36 – 37 – 38, (“But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she should be of full age, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry,
37 - but he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin daughter, he will do well.
38 - so then both he who gives his own virgin daughter in marriage does well, and he who does not give her in marriage will do better.”
(Certainly other Bibles translations of the above three verses are a little different, in some Bibles even the inserted italics are different; but it is obvious to me that in them also the ambiguities still remains in place). Furthermore, any reasonable person is able to see that those three verses are confusing to say the least. Also these verses are openly in opposition to the freedom given to us by Christ, for we all know that fathers have control of their daughter’s life only for a short time, anyhow what would be the purpose of her forced celibacy? It would be reasonable to think from reading the above scriptures that the father is offering the daughter’s celibacy as a sacrifice, for his own perceived benefit.
Needless to say that for that obvious reason alone, the sacrifice is unacceptable to God.
this post continue with post 331
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
from post 430
What's more I have found that, the Pagan Roman religion did have virgin females (vestali), which were pledged to celibacy until thirty years of age, and were under penalty of death if they strayed. They were offered (maybe by their fathers) and dedicated for service to the state, for keeping burning the perennial fire of the temple and were entrusted to safeguard important government documents and records, like the last will and testament of the head of state, and to maintain and or assist him in the temple’s ceremonial function, for the head of the Roman state was also head of religion.
It stands to reason that these verses of 1st Corinthians 7 – 36 – 37 – 38, to make any sense in the life of the faithful, should be read in context with the preceding four verses as they are presented above. In which the subject-matter is exposed and become relevant to the lives of the believers, so that those faithful who are able, can freely and confidently choose celibacy as a spiritual sacrifice of worship to our God.
Nevertheless, if any one after committing to the “devotional sacrifice” realise that, the sacrifice of celibacy is too difficult for him to honestly fulfil, in such case he can stop trying and get married with God’s blessing.
Glory to God
What's more I have found that, the Pagan Roman religion did have virgin females (vestali), which were pledged to celibacy until thirty years of age, and were under penalty of death if they strayed. They were offered (maybe by their fathers) and dedicated for service to the state, for keeping burning the perennial fire of the temple and were entrusted to safeguard important government documents and records, like the last will and testament of the head of state, and to maintain and or assist him in the temple’s ceremonial function, for the head of the Roman state was also head of religion.
It stands to reason that these verses of 1st Corinthians 7 – 36 – 37 – 38, to make any sense in the life of the faithful, should be read in context with the preceding four verses as they are presented above. In which the subject-matter is exposed and become relevant to the lives of the believers, so that those faithful who are able, can freely and confidently choose celibacy as a spiritual sacrifice of worship to our God.
Nevertheless, if any one after committing to the “devotional sacrifice” realise that, the sacrifice of celibacy is too difficult for him to honestly fulfil, in such case he can stop trying and get married with God’s blessing.
Glory to God
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
Look, it is like the worming of the planet, we cannot yet feel the full impact of it but if we weight, it would be to late for us to do anything about it, and we or our children will suffer the consequences of our inaction. Even so, If we chip away at the foundations of our society, it may take two generations but by then our out look on life, and our society will have changed for the worse, and possibly the Muslims will be in power, if that happen the homosexuals would have no closet to hide. If you think I am a hard man, think again. If we break God's moral law, there will be a price to pay, civilizations have come and disappear, have you ever ask yourself why.
Look at history, God flooded the earth because of evil, God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, because of evil, God Send Israel to captivity because of evil. God has established the law and the Devil is the enforcer, you break the law and you are in the devil's hands, and there is no lawyer to defend you.
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Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
I often worry about the worming of the planet
Things that don't change go the way of the dinosaurs, especially societial norms and structures. Clearly though you have a very limited perspective, which is fine. The problem is when one forces their opinion on another, and in so doing causes harm to another. This is against jesus. God is the Judge, not you... If God does indeed hate homosexuals, and gay marriage, you know.... he'll sort it out.
I see you as either a characature or a very limited literalist christian, which is fine. From my perspective that is a perspective of stupidity. You see, that is my opinion. My opinion is not harming you, by assuming and concluding you are an ignoramus does not mean you are losing societal rights. By not allowing gay marriage you are allowing society to treat certain portions as second class citizens, ALL because of OPINION.
Now if only there WAS a way to treat ignoramuses such as yourself and others, that they were too indeed 2nd class citizens, perhaps put in Ghettos like other minorities then perhaps you'd have some perspective. At present you are happy to marginilaize a minority mainly through sheer ignorance and all due to opinion.
To conclude:
understanding you are stupid does not harm you, it is merely an opinion
Assuming gay marriage is wrong due to the bible, is harmful due to opinion, in that a whole minority in society are not allowed many basic societal rights...
I guess Jesus would have singled out minorities and ensured that they were treated thusly.....
Please do not be offended by my assertions that you are stupid, like your position on homosexuality this is just an opinion, yours is based on a translation of scripture, mine si based on your simplistic interpretatiosn of said scripture and your poor writing
A little bird told me to leave this subject alone. I guess I should. Personally I have reconciled any problems I have with homosexuality, a long time ago. People are people. What did Jesus command?
That we love one another.
Thank you
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Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by free spirit
Yes Tarzan also grew up with the ape, and he acted like them, it was normal to him.
So?
He is attempting to compare homosexuality to bestiality...or dehumanizing homosexuals into animals and non homosapiens. This is a standard technique for a bigot to rationalize their hatred.
Adolf Hitler of course famously did the exact same thing.... one merely ahs to look at the huge propoganda machine created by joseph goebbels.
One should also note, Tarzan is a FICTIONAL character. Homosexuals, as living breathing homosapiensa are not fictional characters in books and tv/movies.
"The Jews are undoubtedly a race.
But they are not human."
--Adolf Hitler
Originally Posted by free spirit
Yes Tarzan also grew up with the ape, and he acted like them, it was normal to him.
So?
He is attempting to compare homosexuality to bestiality...or dehumanizing homosexuals into animals and non homosapiens. This is a standard technique for a bigot to rationalize their hatred.
Adolf Hitler of course famously did the exact same thing.... one merely ahs to look at the huge propoganda machine created by joseph goebbels.
One should also note, Tarzan is a FICTIONAL character. Homosexuals, as living breathing homosapiensa are not fictional characters in books and tv/movies.
"The Jews are undoubtedly a race.
But they are not human."
--Adolf Hitler
I don't disagree with what you say about the living Word. When I talk about the Bible being a living document, I am saying that it addresses modern day issues too. Given that social issues were different in Patriarchal times, the Bible is still valid today. What I disagree with is your literalistic approach to the Bible and your insistance that their is no other way to read the Bible. Although you may not have said it in so many words you infer it. I simply disagree. But I am Christian still. And there are at least as many that believe as I do as there are that believe as you do. If so many Christians differ, then where is the absoluteness in one Christians belief over another?
I often refer to the living Bible as the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And given our agreement on Jesus being the living Word, we are both Christians.
This post is really a good post. Thanks for the effort.
There is a lot of concern in your post but I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of morality, or its use concerning homosexuality and the interpretation of Biblical verses concerning human sexuality, homosexuality.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
To Mr. Cheese
Good to hear, for we have only one spaceship.
I am only the messenger boy, yes he has already sort you out, I am the last warning.
Yes I am stupid and ignoramus, but God cannot find any intelligent and wise man to do his will; so you will have to trust a stupid man, it is an humbling experience, so many refuse to lesson because of it.
Do not blame me or others, by your unnatural and indecent acts you have marginalize yourself, you know that but you are blaming others.
To conclude:
If there is no God we are all stupid, even this forum is stupid.
But I know that there is a loving and holy God wishing that his children be holy as he is holy, so as your brother I do my best to tell you about our father's will, I am sorry if it offends you.
Ho! I am not offended. No, my opinion on homosexuality is not based on scripture translation, but on the presence of the spirit of Christ in my heart, I am sorry that my poor writing causes you to mistrust the message, but if I wright in my first language it will be worse.
Believed or not my message is a message of love, for I can personally do without the crap that is been thrown at me because of the message, but I have a mission to accomplish, and there is a lot of enemies of righteousness out there, will I be successful? no for this world is what it is. Sinful.
Thank you
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
As to global warming, this is a natural cyclical event. While our actions may be accelerating the warming, we cannot "stop" the event itself.
Not sure what "foundations" of society you feel are being chipped away.
Was our "society" built upon the foundation of intolerance? Ignorance? Bigotry?
As for your statement of "the Muslims will be in power", this is simply more fear mongering. And an insult to to Islam in general.
BTW, how do you get to the "the Muslims will be in power" with the base of giving homosexuals the right to marry?
Yes I have, and I have studied some of it. Natural disasters, political corruption, war, constant invasion, succession disputes, religious division, and class division have all played roles in many collapses.
That is not history, that is unproven reveled revelation.
You have yet to tell me how giving Gays and Lesbians the equal right to marry will affect my marriage, our family order, or my relationship with my wife and children?
free spirit
Well-Known Member
We agree that Jesus is the living word, and as you know that living word after receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit ACTS 2; 33, He has poured that spirit in the heart of faithfuls people, in order that they may know God. My understanding of the scriptures came from that spirit, the written word only confirms what is in my heart.
The following article is another example of my understanding.
(I) In Matthew 6 13, part of it reads: And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. The verse implies that God leads us into temptation, and the need to ask him not to do that, but to deliver us from evil.
But why should we ask him that? When we all know or should know that the evil of temptation is not in Gods character. For we read in Romans 2 4, Or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance.
And we read in James 1 13, Let no one say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by God; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed (led) by his own lust. And 2nd Peter 2 9, has no ambiguity of the true work of the Lord for we read: The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under darkness for the Day of Judgment.
So, I am only putting the record straight, in harmony with Gods true character, in accordance with his true scripture by partly restoring Matthew 6 13, to read: And lead us into repentance, and deliver us from evil.
The above verse now reflects the true work and character of our God, after all, we are talking about our Heavenly Father, therefore, we should know what he does and doesnt do. I am sure; that an evil man, an enemy of Christ has cleverly inserted those lies in there so they would falsely assume the power of the sacred word. And prevent us to truly know and trust our God and father.