Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.

[Dirty Penguin]

But as for the actual matter in hand. People (for that is what homosexuals ARE) want to get married, show their commitement to each other publically. Enjoy rights and privalages that western society entrusts only to the married (the simple fact is much of society's benefits are geared toward beign married).

You are unable to seperate dogma from law or sense. But I should give up really...

That's what I've been saying and I totally agree.

 

[strange]

Getting a little lost with the quotes being commented on so this quote, I believe is freespirit's,:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Again Mr Cheese if you do all of the above you are one with God, there is no other way in which you can be any closer."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
is the opposite of what I said:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"God needs no help by us to apply these virtues. The virtues are within us all."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your quote, "if you do," I liken to works. Christians don't find salvation according to their doing good things. My comment pertains to God's creation in that we are good, because we were made in the image of God. That image is God's goodness. That goodness is inherent in all humans.

 

[strange]

Your response is vaguely relevant to what we are discussing, could you use please layman's language so i can follow your ideas.

I have to surmise that you haven't a clue as to what the terms I use mean which makes my point vaguely relevant to you concerning the topic being discussed.

So I have to ask you specific questions. My response was to your listing of the virtues from 1 Cor. This list is referred to as the catalogue of vices and virtues. Your were posting the verse to demonstrate that if others followed the virtues they would be closer to God. I understand your point. If I didn't I would not understand the catalogue's emphasis to life. But others, and myself included, see a literalistic, simplistic attempt to make believers; believers being converting others to your way of understanding the Bible.

I referred to my thread on "Morality" because I am attempting to draw out of other's their ideas of morality which has much to do with this thread. Homosexuality is a misrepresented concept that had nothing to do with sin. But because there are those that have associated what discussion there is in the Bible about homosexuality (noting that homosexual was never used in the Bible until 1943 or 1946,) all modern translations lead readers to see homosexuality as sin. That is as simple as I can say it. But of course, it is far more complicated and I doubt that you are willing to acknowledge that other Christians interpret the Bible differently.

Issues of morality, whether you want to admit it or not is what the catalogue of virtues and vices is all about. The derivation of such an idea, morality, begins with the definition of reasoning, virtues, ethics and laws. You see, the Bible is like the first attempt at the science psychology. Pastors, Rabbi's, Priests and Pastors (and all other clergyman) all act like a Psychologist. Theology pulls all this thought process together nicely. Theology stands outside of the circle of religion and directs religion by analysing whether religion uses the right tools to interpret the Bible and make doctrine.

I mentioned "goal" in the development of morals. The catalogue is that set of goals. The catalogue is not a set of automomous diatribes established to represent the Ten Commandments. It is a set of goals used to determine what is moral and establish a morality true to a formula that mimics God's goodness.

I was born into a Catholic family. Raised a strict Catholic. Best thing that ever happened to me because, when my glass house began to fall apart I began a journey to find God instead of blindly accepting doctrine I had no reason to question. I got out of my rut.

Theologian, Paul Tillich, in his writings has demonstrated for me the importance of understanding every word that I read. I don't depend on societal opinions of what is an acceptable definition of a word. Sometimes you have to understand the context of the word used in the period of time that it was written. You must understand the usage of a word, its definition. As with morality, all the terms I used above lay the groundwork, the goals of what morality is whether you use Bible verses or human reasoning to decide on what is morality. But it is never, so cut and dry, so as to simply read the Bible literalistically.

Read my post on "Morality" and if it too is too ambigous then pick up a dictionary and begin to break my post down. I be glad to clarify what specific questions you have as you try to understand. Note, I do not presume to convert your belief system. Just try to understand.

 

[strange]

He's saying morals and dogmas are ultimatly human...

MrCheese, thanks for your assistance in clarifying my point.

 

[free spirit]

TO STRANGE AND Mr CHEESE WITH LOVE

I have also to surmise that you haven't a clue as to what morality is all about and what our God requires of us. You are lost in your own knowledge step back and look at the complete picture. Which is very simple really for even an illiterate can understand, so why make it complicated, the only ones that like make it complicated are those who want to justify their evil deeds. They do not know that forgiveness is theirs for the asking if they resolutely set themselves to sin no more. As you are engrossed in human theology, I am engrossed in the Spirit of God. The fallowing articles will demonstrate to you the morality required by God.

EFFECTIVE WORSHIP




We all at some time, either alone, or within an assembly have taken part in worship, but in response to a Samaritan woman, Jesus revealed the requirements for an effective worship. We read in John 4 – 20 – 26: “Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus said to her. “Woman believe me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the father. You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and truth; for such people the father seeks to be his worshippers. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that the Messiah is coming, (he who is called Christ when that one comes he will declare all things to us.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
The above scripture on the surface appears to be straightforward, but how do we do that, seeing that we are of flesh, and our perceived truth is not necessarily the truth?

Wisdom dictates that we should not venture in the realm that is beyond our grasp. First we should analyse our own spiritual makeup, for we should have an intimate knowledge of ourselves, for if we were created in the image of God, we should know which part of us is in the image of God, before we can understand what lies beyond.

In the book of Genesis 1 – 26 and 27, God laid the foundations of the character and purpose of humanity, for we read: “Then God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. And God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

So according to the above scripture we have the image of God in ourselves, but unfortunately man’s imaginative and artistic skill fashioned God to resemble himself, male and female, and some of us even elevated animals as the form to worship. Others worship some object like the sun, the moon, the earth, or nature itself. Needless to say that they all are in error, because it is not the object, or creature, or our superficial appearance or gender that bear the image of God, but it is the essence (spirit) of God in us that bear the image of God.

It isn’t difficult to identify the spirit in us that bear the image of God; because he has not been hidden in some dark place, but he is in the most forefront of our lives, if anything it is his ever-exposure that makes him invisible as it were.

For with his essence we are able to think, formulate plans and be creative, to have the power of the word means to be living souls. Just consider without this Godly essence we would be like animals, living in the limitation of instinct, and not living from the essence of unlimited freedom and intelligent reason.


So the God given ability to formulate reason with words is what makes us in the image of God, for he created all things by the power of his word, and like him we also plan and create things out of the reasoning power of our words. The ability to speak intelligent and creative words is truly what makes us living souls; therefore it is the breath of life itself. (Genesis 2 – 7.)

We all know that man was not content with the special status that God had allotted to him, because man was enticed by Satan to covet the likeness of the wisdom of God, by knowing good and evil. Genesis 3 – 5 – 6, records the advent: “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be open, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (gratification of the body) and that it was a delight to the eyes, (gratification of the senses) and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, (gratification of the ego) she took from its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.” And Genesis 3 – 22, confirms what took place. “Then the Lord God said, behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.”

Moving a step further towards the understanding of ourselves we must realise that the source of coordinate actions of the body and precise utterances, reside in the spirit, there is no other plausible location. Have you ever searched your inner self to find the source of your words? For if you could find it you would be staring in the face of god, with a small “g” because it would be your own face you would be looking at. Our spirit has the ability to be immensely active, continually creating thought without disturbing the body, in our dreams for example, or in our private thought, he is the tenant of the body, and his presence and activity keeps our body alive, “for the body without the spirit is dead.” Our spirit and soul is so intertwined that to separate them is only possible to God.

Go to post 466 to continue

 

[free spirit]

from post 465

We cannot see the soul but we can see and hear the affect of the soul, it can be either good or bad, because it knows both. Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.

A loving relationship either in the flesh or in the spirit is always based on communication; for how can anyone claim to have a relationship without talking to each other, or how can anyone fellowship with those that entertain adversary thought and or, behaviour, that cause offence to one’s own character. So the exhortation recorded in the scriptures “You shall be holy, for I am holy” is an invitation to fellowship with him.

Therefore the soul has to become holy to meet and fellowship with a holy God. Ephesians 4 – 23, is very explicit with what we have to do, for we read: “And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind.” In other words, the soul must cleanse itself from the word of inequity, which is the integral and living evil side of our soul, which uninvited floods our mind; with the covetousness of immorality, boastfulness, jealousy, greed, fear, anger, envy and ambition.

However with the guidance of the Holy Spirit abiding in us, we are now able to suppress and put to death our unclean and undisciplined thoughts. And replace them with the discipline of love: With its manifestation of joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Wisdom also demands that we understand the complex identity of our soul, which is formed by the spirit of our conscience, and the spirit of our mind, sharing control over our will and body, but the most important part of the soul is our conscience. For it is an independent judge of all that we do or say, it is also a passive but persuasive controller of our unfolding lives. (Man or woman without a conscience unquestionably would tend to be an evil person, and unfortunately there are many in the world whom have no conscience.)

On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality, reacting to the world’s unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our conscience’s retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin. The apostle Paul said in Romans 7 – 15, “For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” According to that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will. But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of his grace he has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin. As 1st Peter 4 – 2, also says, “So as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.”

To have our will freed from the shackles of sin is very important to God, for he sacrificed his son to redeem the freedom of our will. But only at our request he sends the spirit of his son into our heart to sanctify our conscience, and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins. Also giving our conscience the right to change the course of our life, and to enter the consciousness of God’s truth. Hebrews 10 – 1 to 18 is explicit for it says among other things: “For having once been cleansed we would have no longer consciousness of sins.”

Our body is also fundamental to worship God, 1st Corinthians 6 – 18 to 20, is very explicit in describing the importance of our body for it says. “Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.”

At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells. But now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the body’s unholy appetites, as Romans 12 – 1 – 2 says, “I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable (useful) to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.” The importance of keeping our body holy is obvious, for God will not openly use a defiled vessel.

Without a doubt, if we have exercised the new freedom and power of our sanctified conscience, and grasped the importance of our body as the vessel of God, and made his mind our own, we have inadvertently already experienced the joy ofworshipping in spirit and truth. (Or consciousness of holiness)

As I said before, the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will, brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit. Our gratitude and thanksgiving belongs to him, who is our priest, and advocate, who also patiently lead us back to our God and father. Having therefore by his grace reached sanctification, of our spirit, (conscience) of our soul, (mind) and of our body, (vessel) we can now have the living hope of fellowship and enter beyond the veil of holiness in the presence of our God and father.

The attitude of worship will express, respect, obedience, and service, all wrapped in an uncovetous loving relationship with our Heavenly Father so that we may know his will, regarding the work of service that we must zealously render on his behalf to our fellow men. Because, if we have been sanctified completely, in other words “if we are dead to sin and sin is death to us” the love that God holds for the human race has become our own, and we have become partners with his son Jesus Christ to spread among men the gospel of salvation.

Because “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.

In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life

It is fitting for the wisdom of God to sum it all up with this one phrase.
“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Glory to God

 

[Mr Cheese]

summary:

fundamentalists of any kind are practically blind, deaf and dumb

 

[Mr Cheese]

from post 465

We cannot see the soul but we can see and hear the affect of the soul, it can be either good or bad, because it knows both. Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.

A loving relationship either in the flesh or in the spirit is always based on communication; for how can anyone claim to have a relationship without talking to each other, or how can anyone fellowship with those that entertain adversary thought and or, behaviour, that cause offence to one’s own character. So the exhortation recorded in the scriptures “You shall be holy, for I am holy” is an invitation to fellowship with him.

Therefore the soul has to become holy to meet and fellowship with a holy God. Ephesians 4 – 23, is very explicit with what we have to do, for we read: “And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind.” In other words, the soul must cleanse itself from the word of inequity, which is the integral and living evil side of our soul, which uninvited floods our mind; with the covetousness of immorality, boastfulness, jealousy, greed, fear, anger, envy and ambition.

However with the guidance of the Holy Spirit abiding in us, we are now able to suppress and put to death our unclean and undisciplined thoughts. And replace them with the discipline of love: With its manifestation of joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Wisdom also demands that we understand the complex identity of our soul, which is formed by the spirit of our conscience, and the spirit of our mind, sharing control over our will and body, but the most important part of the soul is our conscience. For it is an independent judge of all that we do or say, it is also a passive but persuasive controller of our unfolding lives. (Man or woman without a conscience unquestionably would tend to be an evil person, and unfortunately there are many in the world whom have no conscience.)

On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality, reacting to the world’s unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our conscience’s retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin. The apostle Paul said in Romans 7 – 15, “For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” According to that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will. But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of his grace he has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin. As 1st Peter 4 – 2, also says, “So as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.”

To have our will freed from the shackles of sin is very important to God, for he sacrificed his son to redeem the freedom of our will. But only at our request he sends the spirit of his son into our heart to sanctify our conscience, and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins. Also giving our conscience the right to change the course of our life, and to enter the consciousness of God’s truth. Hebrews 10 – 1 to 18 is explicit for it says among other things: “For having once been cleansed we would have no longer consciousness of sins.”

Our body is also fundamental to worship God, 1st Corinthians 6 – 18 to 20, is very explicit in describing the importance of our body for it says. “Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.”

At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells. But now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the body’s unholy appetites, as Romans 12 – 1 – 2 says, “I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable (useful) to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.” The importance of keeping our body holy is obvious, for God will not openly use a defiled vessel.

Without a doubt, if we have exercised the new freedom and power of our sanctified conscience, and grasped the importance of our body as the vessel of God, and made his mind our own, we have inadvertently already experienced the joy ofworshipping in spirit and truth. (Or consciousness of holiness)

As I said before, the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will, brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit. Our gratitude and thanksgiving belongs to him, who is our priest, and advocate, who also patiently lead us back to our God and father. Having therefore by his grace reached sanctification, of our spirit, (conscience) of our soul, (mind) and of our body, (vessel) we can now have the living hope of fellowship and enter beyond the veil of holiness in the presence of our God and father.

The attitude of worship will express, respect, obedience, and service, all wrapped in an uncovetous loving relationship with our Heavenly Father so that we may know his will, regarding the work of service that we must zealously render on his behalf to our fellow men. Because, if we have been sanctified completely, in other words “if we are dead to sin and sin is death to us” the love that God holds for the human race has become our own, and we have become partners with his son Jesus Christ to spread among men the gospel of salvation.

Because “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.

In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life

It is fitting for the wisdom of God to sum it all up with this one phrase.
“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Glory to God

yes you are assuming there is only one authority

your translation of the bible

you are assuming it and God are the same thing

Many people would disagree, fortunatly for homosapiens as a whole race!

 

[strange]

TO STRANGE AND Mr CHEESE WITH LOVE

"I have also to surmise that you haven't a clue as to what morality is all about and what our God requires of us. You are lost in your own knowledge step back and look at the complete picture. Which is very simple really for even an illiterate can understand, so why make it complicated, the only ones that like make it complicated are those who want to justify their evil deeds. They do not know that forgiveness is theirs for the asking if they resolutely set themselves to sin no more. As you are engrossed in human theology, I am engrossed in the Spirit of God. The fallowing articles will demonstrate to you the morality required by God."

Bravo, sorry for the sarcasm. Listen to the words that you have taken from others and compare them to what I have written. Those words you quote (but do not site) are the same ideas I state or quote. I might add, from those far more capable than the author of your quote. Thomas Aquinas is right up there with Augustine. The two are tautamount to the very basic of understanding scripture and theology.

You speak of a simplicity that the illiterate can understand. It is this very reason that Muslims in the far east listen to the Taliban and believe every word they speak of that relates to Jihad.

Because you will not or cannot break down that which you preach you are left with a simplistic attempt at understanding the Word of God. It could be a grave error on your part.

What makes you think that you have the absolute truth, because you can read the Bible and take every word read as God's spoken word?

How is it that you can speak of the Spirit and our creation as in the image of God and still condemn my take on morality that is our lot to understand because of our likeness of God?

What is it that I said that differs with your quoted author concerning the likeness of God, virtues, spirit and morality?

Did I not talk about all these things integrating them, defining morality?

My wife once facilitated a Bible study and she used an illustration to demonstrate the lesson on God's identity. She had everybody write down what they saw in God, what they thought about God, what the image of God is and had all those notes collected. They were placed in a box. Call it the God box. And she continued on talking about the lesson. After which, she took the box, full of ideas of God that the group had placed in it, opened it up and turned it upside down. This box was suppose to represent God. Guess what fell out of the box? Nothing!

The Spirit, our spirit, the image of God, our likeness of God, the virtues you listed all are about man's life, man's morality.

 

[free spirit]

TO STRANGE AND Mr CHEESE WITH LOVE

"I have also to surmise that you haven't a clue as to what morality is all about and what our God requires of us. You are lost in your own knowledge step back and look at the complete picture. Which is very simple really for even an illiterate can understand, so why make it complicated, the only ones that like make it complicated are those who want to justify their evil deeds. They do not know that forgiveness is theirs for the asking if they resolutely set themselves to sin no more. As you are engrossed in human theology, I am engrossed in the Spirit of God. The fallowing articles will demonstrate to you the morality required by God."

Bravo, sorry for the sarcasm. Listen to the words that you have taken from others and compare them to what I have written. Those words you quote (but do not site) are the same ideas I state or quote. I might add, from those far more capable than the author of your quote. Thomas Aquinas is right up there with Augustine. The two are tautamount to the very basic of understanding scripture and theology.

The only words that i take from others I take from the bible, the rest are my thought.
what is the number of the post that has the same ideas please!
I am the author of the quote, which is not a quote.
Thomas Aquinas and Augustine have no place in the bible, therefore they are as important as I am.

You speak of a simplicity that the illiterate can understand. It is this very reason that Muslims in the far east listen to the Taliban and believe every word they speak of that relates to Jihad.

you confusing the illiterate with the gullible

Because you will not or cannot break down that which you preach you are left with a simplistic attempt at understanding the Word of God. It could be a grave error on your part.

Jesus spoke on sentence: I write an over three page articles about it, and you say I will not or cannot break it down some more, I do not attempt at understanding, but actually by his grace I do understand the word of God.

What makes you think that you have the absolute truth, because you can read the Bible and take every word read as God's spoken word?

No I know that I have the absolute truth because By his grace I have the ability to correct the errors that are in the bible. As in the following article.

(I) In Matthew 6 – 13, part of it reads: “And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” The verse implies that God leads us into temptation, and the need to ask him not to do that, but to deliver us from evil.
But why should we ask him that? When we all know or should know that the evil of temptation is not in God’s character. For we read in Romans 2 – 4, “Or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance.”

And we read in James 1 – 13, “Let no one say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by God; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed (led) by his own lust.” And 2nd Peter 2 – 9, has no ambiguity of the true work of the Lord for we read: “The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under darkness for the Day of Judgment.”
So, I am only putting the record straight, in harmony with God’s true character, in accordance with his true scripture by partly restoring Matthew 6 – 13, to read: “And lead us into repentance, and deliver us from evil.”

The above verse now reflects the true work and character of our God, after all, we are talking about our Heavenly Father, therefore, we should know what he does and doesn’t do. I am sure; that an evil man, an enemy of Christ has cleverly inserted those lies in there so they would falsely assume the power of the sacred word. And prevent us to truly know and trust our God and father. Now ask yourself how Thomas Aquinas and Augustine missed that.

How is it that you can speak of the Spirit and our creation as in the image of God and still condemn my take on morality that is our lot to understand because of our likeness of God?

Because I believe that your description of morality is no morality at all, but it is licentiousness.

What is it that I said that differs with your quoted author concerning the likeness of God, virtues, spirit and morality?
Did I not talk about all these things integrating them, defining morality?

Please give me your post number and I will apologize if I have misunderstood you.

My wife once facilitated a Bible study and she used an illustration to demonstrate the lesson on God's identity. She had everybody write down what they saw in God, what they thought about God, what the image of God is and had all those notes collected. They were placed in a box. Call it the God box. And she continued on talking about the lesson. After which, she took the box, full of ideas of God that the group had placed in it, opened it up and turned it upside down. This box was suppose to represent God. Guess what fell out of the box? Nothing!

Your wife exercise tells me one thing, those people did not know God at all.

The Spirit, our spirit, the image of God, our likeness of God, the virtues you listed all are about man's life, man's morality.

loving God, and loving ourselves, or loving our neighbor is all the same; for God is all and in all. but it has to be devoid of sin because God hate sin, and especially abominations.

 

[Mr Cheese]

The worse blind and deaf is the man that does not want to see or hear, and such are you.

And you are saying that a loving commited couple who wish to marry are an abomination

because one may not have a vagina or one may not have a penis

Love is love, God is Love...

the simple fact is, as I have repeated for years

God is not a bigot, his followers are
....

But I should stop, it really is pointless

I cannot remove the hate from you
Only you can do that

 

[free spirit]

And you are saying that a loving commited couple who wish to marry are an abomination

because one may not have a vagina or one may not have a penis

Love is love, God is Love...

the simple fact is, as I have repeated for years

God is not a bigot, his followers are
....

But I should stop, it really is pointless

I cannot remove the hate from you
Only you can do that

My friend I hate to inform you that love is not sex, and sex is no love, I also love my friends males and fimales but I do not have sex with them, nor even with my close friends. NO NO NO

 

[Riverwolf]

My friend I hate to inform you that love is not sex, and sex is no love, I also love my friends males and fimales but I do not have sex with them, nor even with my close friends. NO NO NO

And is it so hard to grasp the fact that many homosexual couples understand that and DON'T have a relationship that is centered around sex?

 

[free spirit]

And is it so hard to grasp the fact that many homosexual couples understand that and DON'T have a relationship that is centered around sex?

Yes it is hard for me to grasp that, then I must confess that I am ignorant of what the relationship is based on. The word homosexual does not apply if there is no sex. Sorry I am lost.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes it is hard for me to grasp that, then I must confess that I am ignorant of what the relationship is based on. The word homosexual does not apply if there is no sex. Sorry I am lost.

Sex is a healthy aspect of any relationship, and like you, I feel that any relationship that is centered around it is doomed to failure. (Some may disagree with me.)

Many same-gender relationships are based around love; the kind you describe.

 

[Beaudreaux]

please cite some scholars that state: The bible indicates homosexuality is wrong, scholars not fundamentalist christians. I will eat my words if you can, I am able to be wrong!

The fact that homosexuality is not mentioned once by Christ doesnt help the "God hates ****" brigade...

Some scholars would even go as far as saying David was Bi-sexual as he "loved Johnathon above all women".... and well, David was well liked enough to a) be annointed (christified) and b) supposedly his bloodline given to Jesus...

Not my point at all. In the post to which I was responding, you said:

this is true.... homosexual probitions are largely due to to transaltion

This is why I asked if you had insight into why these scholars might have mistranlated the Bible.

 

[Beaudreaux]

"There is no evidence for such usage elsewhere in ancient Greek literature. To argue that the two words, malakos and arsenokoitai refer to passive and active partners in homosexual intercourse, belies the historical and lexicographical evidence and perpetuates a homophobic prejudice."

Does more need to be said?

Well, yeah, I think so. Again, modern translations of the Bible are produced by teams of scholars who have devoted their lives to the study of ancient languages and texts. Why do you suppose they got this so wrong when you can clearly see the mistake?

 

[Mr Cheese]

My friend I hate to inform you that love is not sex, and sex is no love, I also love my friends males and fimales but I do not have sex with them, nor even with my close friends. NO NO NO

A married couple generally have sex...

geez the word simpleton doesnt even begin to cover it

 

[Mr Cheese]

This is why I asked if you had insight into why these scholars might have mistranlated the Bible.

Historically, largely for three reasons

1) Bias, take the classic, the KJV, fully docteured to fit what was wanted. The KJV afterall was written to appease two factions in England. Of course it failed, the puritans moved to America.... and well we know the rest

2)Ignorance, simple error and bad translation

3) similar to 2, but eroors that occured as they were using copies of copies, instead of originals... errors beget errors etc. until things snow ball.

Those are the main reasons to the best of my knowledge

 

[Mr Cheese]

Well, yeah, I think so. Again, modern translations of the Bible are produced by teams of scholars who have devoted their lives to the study of ancient languages and texts. Why do you suppose they got this so wrong when you can clearly see the mistake?

Please see my post above

modern translations are less problematic...but still there is the problem of copies of copies

from a different thread http://fou.uniting.com.au/texts.html this is good stuff, and illustrates "problems" with homophobia and the bible