Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.

[free spirit]

So, I'm confused now. It was not a sin then but it is now. What has changed to make it sinful? I'm confused, what is the sin now that wasn't then? What is the morality issue then and now?

Jesus has changed many things, the old testament established a religion, the new testament establishes grace and truth.
if you know what grace and truth mean then you would understand me and the New testament scriptures, here are some of the scriptures that confirms these changes.
Hebrews 11:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
38 (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 12: Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin, which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him who has endured such hostility by sinners against himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart.
4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin,

Matthew 19; 8, we read "He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart; Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
Matthew 5:
31 And it was said, whoever sends his wife away; let him give her a certificate of divorce,
32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of unchastity, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
33 Again, you have heard that the ancients were told. You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfil your vows to the Lord.
34 But I say to you, make no oath at all either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of his feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great king.
36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
37 But let your statement be, “Yes, yes,” or “No, no,” and anything beyond these is of evil.
38 You have heard that it was said. An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.
But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek; turn to him the other also.
40 And if anyone wants to sue you, and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
41 And whoever shall force you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
43 You have heard that it was said. You shall love your neighbour, and hate your enemy.
44 but I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.
45 in order that your may be sons of your father who is in heaven, for he causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect.
The Old testament believers were not able to be perfect because they did not have the grace and truth of Christ. but we are expected to be perfect because grace and truth have been given to us as a gift.
Hebrews 10: 26 to 29, " for if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth,there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. anyone who has set aside the law of moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witness. how much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the son of god, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and he has insulted the spirit of grace.
Strange I like to point out the phrase "has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified" it is more important that it would appear on the surface.

 

[Riverwolf]

Jesus has changed many things, the old testament established a religion, the new testament establishes grace and truth.
if you know what grace and truth mean then you would understand me and the New testament scriptures...

It's not that we misunderstand. (Or rather, I don't.)

It's that we disagree.

 

[Riverwolf]

34 But I say to you, make no oath at all either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of his feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great king.
36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
37 But let your statement be, “Yes, yes,” or “No, no,” and anything beyond these is of evil.

Just as a side note, this is one of my favorite passages.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, Jesus, not Paul, is the head figure of Christianity. And if Jesus would have found it important enough to tell people not to be gay, he would have. And allthough he did cover alot, homosexuality was not one of them. Paul was also very much unlike Jesus. Jesus didn't mind a woman's companionship, while Paul seemed to have quite the sexist streak going. And if you believe people do not choose to be gay, it obviously means they were born as being gay, which means it is indeed natural, which must mean God or Jesus does not have an issue with it.

Myself, I don't care. I do have a problem with a God though who would say "Love thy neighbor as thy self" but then is picky about who you love in a relationship.

 

[free spirit]

to shadow wolf

well, Jesus, not Paul, is the head figure of Christianity. And if Jesus would have found it important enough to tell people not to be gay, he would have. And although he did cover alot, homosexuality was not one of them.

john 21: 25, "and there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, i suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books which were written."
in these days adultery was not tolerated, so we have to assume that also homosexuals would not be tolerated. But "go and sin no more"
was Jesus graceful response, and it is still valid today.

Paul was also very much unlike Jesus. Jesus didn't mind a woman's companionship, while Paul seemed to have quite the sexist streak going.

Paul was appointed to explain the workings of the gospel, and in his devotion to do that, neglected the comforts that a wife would bring into his life.
Matthew 19: 12, "for there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

and if you believe people do not choose to be gay, it obviously means they were born as being gay, which means it is indeed natural, which must mean god or Jesus does not have an issue with it.

yes if anyone can be born eunuch, one can be born guy, so he can be born with pyromania, or with kleptomania, or can be born with a tendency to kill. All good or bad can manifest in anyone life. But what we actually do is our responsibility. For we read in genesis 4: 6 - 7, "then the lord said to Cain, "why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it,"

myself, i don't care. I do have a problem with a god though who would say "love thy neighbor as thy self" but then is picky about who you love in a relationship.

Genesis 1:28, And God blessed them; and God said to them, " Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." God's intentions are clear He blesses Adam and Eve, and that blessing is still good today. Homosexuality even if you were born with it, still remains a choice for you to act it out; in other words you had the power to master it, and not to became its slave.

 

[free spirit]

true love is feeling the same love for everything. it does not say anywhere that you must love your wife and children more then the rest of the world.

i would like to also add that the woman's anatomy is not the only artistic thing on the planet. god is quite an artist when it comes to his creations. i would suggest that there is nothing wrong with liking the look of a same gender person.

and for advice, your desire to be with a same gender in a intimate way hints that there was past exposure to bad expirienced relationships with the opposite gender. try to find out what it is about opposite gender that has hurt you t the point to dislike it. or it could very well be that you like something so much about the opposite gender that you wish to be more like it.

i wish you the best of luck in finding your true self.

Hi! Amigo, You seem to be all over the place, Is God anywhere in your life, or haven't you given no consideration about his will for you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

in other words you had the power to master it, and not to became its slave.

Sadly, this "mastering" of it, has lead to alot of people living lives of depression, and far too many suicides.
Save for a very few individuals, denying sexual pleasure is really no different than depraving oneself of food or water. Sex is indeed a need, and to deny it has been shown to cause a great deal of mental trauma and harm. Telling a gay man to "master" it and enjoy sex with a woman would be like telling a starving lion to enjoy a vegetarian buffet.

 

[free spirit]

Sadly, this "mastering" of it, has lead to alot of people living lives of depression, and far too many suicides.
Save for a very few individuals, denying sexual pleasure is really no different than depraving oneself of food or water. Sex is indeed a need, and to deny it has been shown to cause a great deal of mental trauma and harm. Telling a gay man to "master" it and enjoy sex with a woman would be like telling a starving lion to enjoy a vegetarian buffet.

Yes you have explain the power of the flesh has on our mind; also religious people experience the same loosing struggle in keeping the law, for we read in Romans 7: 14 to 25, For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. for that which i am doing, i do not understand; for i am not practicing what i would like to do, but i am doing the very thing i hate. but if i do the very thing i do not wish to do, i agree with the law, confessing that it is good. so now no longer am i the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. for i know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me,, but the doing of the good is not. for the good that i wish, i do not do; but i practice the very evil that i do not wish. but if i am doing the very thing i do not wish, i am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. i find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good. for i joyfully concur with the law of god in the inner man, but i see a different law in the members of my body, waging was against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. wretched man that i am! who will set me free from the body of this death? thanks be to god through Jesus Christ our lord! so then, on the one hand i myself with my mind am serving the law of god, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. chapter 8: 1 - 2, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. for the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. verse 12, so then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." in other words by ourselves even the believer is doomed to failure, but with the spirit of Christ in us, you are empowered to master the deed of the flesh, and not only that, but he also forgives all past transgressions. According to the above scriptures there is a way out for all those who have not abandoned themselves to sin and seeks to change their life for the better.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes you have explain the power of the flesh has on our mind; also religious people experience the same loosing struggle in keeping the law, for we read in Romans 7: 14 to 25, ...

Why should Romans 7:14-25 be deemed at all worthy of consideration?

 

[free spirit]

Why should Romans 7:14-25 be deemed at all worthy of consideration?

these scriptures are clear of our spiritual helplessnesses, for while we are in the flesh we loose every time, if we want to win against the desires of our flesh we need the spirit of Christ, because he has defeated sin in the flesh.

 

[free spirit]

It's not that we misunderstand. (Or rather, I don't.)

It's that we disagree.

Yes you are free to disagree, nevertheless in time you will be asked why?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

these scriptures are clear of our spiritual helplessnesses, for while we are in the flesh we loose every time, if we want to win against the desires of our flesh we need the spirit of Christ, because he has defeated sin in the flesh.

Big blue rubbish is rubbish none the less ...

 

[free spirit]

Big blue rubbish is rubbish none the less ...

Is that all you have to say? I did change the color.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Is that all you have to say? I did change the color.

You also managed a sentence without mindlessly parroting some New Testament verse with no inherent authority or credibility. Much, much better ...

 

[Mr Cheese]

“There are Neanderthals, there are Republicans, there is Terri Schiavo, and then there are Biblical Literalists”


But none of these facts excuses the Neumanns or should give us pause about their being prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The simple fact is that literalism, especially biblical literalism, kills.
For God's Sake: Biblical Literalism Kills -- Literally - On Faith at washingtonpost.com

Interesting article that illustrates the consequences of free spirit's ideas....
Of course there are other commands in the bible, arguably free is advocating stoning people to death and plucking people's eye balls out....

the article continues below (follow the link to the full article)
.........................

This case is not about who is, or is not a Fundamentalist. It is about people hiding behind a claim of reading the Bible literally, which nobody does anyway. A great example can be found among those who claim to follow every word of the Bible and use that claim to explain their rejection of homosexuality and witchcraft, but have no problem violating equally biblical bans on pork or cooking on the Sabbath.


Of course, they will point to a new scripture which extends the prohibition on the first two, and frees them from the second set of proscriptions. But that is an interpretive move and that means that they are no longer literalists who are freed from the consequences of their actions simply by invoking the Free Exercise clause.


The case of Kara Neumann and the parents who allowed her to die, is about the dangers of any group of people, of any faith, refusing to admit that they too are part of an interpretive tradition, making decisions about the meaning of the text which they revere. When they fail to acknowledge their role in interpreting the text, they are creating an excuse to check their consciences at the door, and end up deeply hypocritical at best and murderous at worst.


Be it Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Pagan or anything else, any insistence on the literal reading of any ancient holy book, in contemporary times, quickly devolves into ugly and dangerous behavior. In fact, the reason that both early Christians and the first rabbinic Jews were able to create new communities was because the literal reading of the Hebrew Bible had ceased to be a functional approach to that text.
........

On a final note, the IRONIC thing, if the following extract is correct, is well, that Free spirit's assertions are just plain nonsensical, but I think that has already become clear to most:

Much of the conflict between science and religion is the result of literal interpretations of the sacred text of the Christian and Jewish faiths known as the Bible. A literalist view of the Bible is actually an outgrowth of the philosophy and time period from which modern science arose (called the "Enlightenment"—the 18th century) that identified truth with factuality and that truth must be verifiable as fact. Therefore, it is a relatively recent view that does not go back to the original community of Christians that wrote the materials collected together in what Christians call the "New Testament" (and, therefore, not even further back to the communities of the Hebrew Bible, the "Old Testament").

http://www.astronomynotes.com/science-religion/truth-metaphor.htm

......

Biblical Literalism is the most common form of schizophrenia as of yet discovered in humans. It is usually diagnosed from the sufferer's belief that the Bible, in its entirety, is an accurate account of actual events which have taken place since the world was created by God, in 6 days, 6000 years ago.
As many as 80% of Christians suffer from Biblical Literalism, and it is furthermore thought that Biblical Literalism is a pre-cursory symptom of kiddy fiddling.
If you think you or someone you know may be a Biblical Literalist, there is help. Most hospitals offer powerful euthanasia for any Biblical Literalist seeking help. If you can't afford medical bills or you don't dig hospital treatments, a bit of music from Gary's Gang will also do the trick.

Biblical Literalism - Uncyclopedia, the content-free encyclopedia

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes you are free to disagree, nevertheless in time you will be asked why?

I don't need to wait in order to be asked.

If I am going to disagree with ANYTHING, the FIRST THING TO DO is to ask WHY. I don't need to wait for God to ask why when I need to ask myself, first.

 

[Riverwolf]

“
Biblical Literalism is the most common form of schizophrenia as of yet discovered in humans. It is usually diagnosed from the sufferer's belief that the Bible, in its entirety, is an accurate account of actual events which have taken place since the world was created by God, in 6 days, 6000 years ago.
As many as 80% of Christians suffer from Biblical Literalism, and it is furthermore thought that Biblical Literalism is a pre-cursory symptom of kiddy fiddling.
If you think you or someone you know may be a Biblical Literalist, there is help. Most hospitals offer powerful euthanasia for any Biblical Literalist seeking help. If you can't afford medical bills or you don't dig hospital treatments, a bit of music from Gary's Gang will also do the trick.

Biblical Literalism - Uncyclopedia, the content-free encyclopedia

I have to ask, what's the purpose of this rather hurtful section?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

According to the above scriptures there is a way out for all those who have not abandoned themselves to sin and seeks to change their life for the better.

Why does a gay person need to change, when being gay (or straight) is largly determined by genetics and how the brain develops in the womb?

 

[Mr Cheese]

I have to ask, what's the purpose of this rather hurtful section?

It is satire

click the link, you will find it is TOTALLY NON SERIOUS

thank you:yes::flirt:

 

[free spirit]

You also managed a sentence without mindlessly parroting some New Testament verse with no inherent authority or credibility. Much, much better ...

Well I have to ask, why are you interested in this threat? You know that this is a religious forum, so you can expect the quoting of scriptures.
I am not interested in what the Muslim religion has to say about God, so I do not go on their threat.