That is a great link. It illustrates much of what I've researched over the years.
Here is another link that may be of interest to you and others: Peter, Paul and Mary. Gnostics may find it interesting and add insight to understanding it.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Struggling to come to terms with something I have read in the bible.
- Thread starter Enlighten
- Start date
That is a great link. It illustrates much of what I've researched over the years.
Here is another link that may be of interest to you and others: Peter, Paul and Mary. Gnostics may find it interesting and add insight to understanding it.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
TO STRANGE
Why don't you speak to me? have you read my post 471.
I have visited the link, "Peter, Paul and Mary." and I have read :"upon this rock I will build my Church" and if you believe that crap no wonder you post the way you do. (a talking dog, a flying magician, a contest between God and Satan) you believe in fairy tales. wake up you are so deceived that I do not know where to begin.
Why don't you speak to me? have you read my post 471.
I have visited the link, "Peter, Paul and Mary." and I have read :"upon this rock I will build my Church" and if you believe that crap no wonder you post the way you do. (a talking dog, a flying magician, a contest between God and Satan) you believe in fairy tales. wake up you are so deceived that I do not know where to begin.
Last edited:
What I said, was that I could see some of Apostle Paul's statement clearly now haven read Peter, Paul and Marymagdalene.
I did respond. I can't find that response either. Don't know what happened.
Last edited:
which part of us is in the image of God, before we can understand what lies beyond.
So according to the above scripture we have the image of God in ourselves, but unfortunately mans imaginative and artistic skill fashioned God to resemble himself, male and female, and some of us even elevated animals as the form to worship. Others worship some object like the sun, the moon, the earth, or nature itself. Needless to say that they all are in error, because it is not the object, or creature, or our superficial appearance or gender that bear the image of God, but it is the essence (spirit)
What is a Spirit?
Are they one and the same ?
The soul is the actual life-power.
The spirit, it is life; it is the life of the soul; it includes the body and mind but not as realities of the soul.
With those statements as answers, they are not the same.
of God in us that bear the image of God.
It isnt difficult to identify the spirit
identify the spirit
self-centred
I start this discussion out with a quote from Paul Tillich's Systematic Theology, Vol. III, pp. 38.
"The self-integration of life in the dimension of the spirit: morality, or the constitution of the personal self.--In man complete centeredness is essentially given, but it is not actually given until man actualizes it in freedom and through destiny. The act in which man actualizes his essential centeredness is the moral act. Moraity is the constitutive function of spirit. A moral act, therefore, is not an act in which some divine or human law is obeyed but an act in which life intergrates itself in the dimension of spirit, and this means as personality within a community. Morality is the function of life in which the centered self constitutes itself as a person; it is the totality of those acts in which a potentially personal life process becomes an actual person. Such acts happen continuously in a personal life; the constitution of the person as a person never comes to an end during his whole life process."
So the God given ability to formulate reason
[reason
For man to behave well, reasoning must be strengthened by mental and moral virtues. Moral virtues are the same as human virtues because they are with reason; it is a balance of a course of action. The rightness of reason is prudence; so prudence directs moral virtues. But prudence is a mental virtue and since it is about regulating behaviour by reason, it is the same as moral virtues.]
with words is what makes us in the image of God, for he created all things by the power of his word, and like him we also plan and create things out of the reasoning power of our words. The ability to speak intelligent and creative words is truly what makes us living souls; therefore it is the breath of life itself. (Genesis 2 7.)
with the covetousness of immorality, boastfulness, jealousy, greed, fear, anger, envy and ambition.
God = Wisdom
All these things, the catalogue of virtues, are instilled virtues. God needs no help by us to apply these virtues. The virtues are within us all.
What needs to be understood here is that this catalogue is this goal that I mentioned in my last post on "Morality." Especially when one reads the catalogue of vices. I once wrote, "The catalogue of vices and virtues is the correct categorization in the determination as to whether the above are immoral sexual acts." The above, sexual acts begins with saying, "Simply, homosexuals may or may not be immoral [sinful]." The same is true about business, helping professionals, one's work. And this list can go on.
If we were to take the short list of catalogue of vices and equate that list with only the acts they define; then we have wrongly interpreted God's Word to mean only those acts. But the catalogue does not only address those specific acts, instead the catalogue addresses the behaviour that relates to all sin. The catalogue encompasses all behaviours. Like avoiding family or wife by being a workaholic. Or having an affair. Both demonstrate avoidance, deceit, lies, etc.
Since virtues, whether mental or moral are intimately tied to human reason and prudence one can begin to see that which we, as humans, are created in the likeness of God's goodness. It is our lot to help one another. It is our lot for prudent morals. Morals with goals to govern ethics and laws.
Second Part to answer:
free spirit
In Galatians 5: 22 to 25, we read,"But the fruits of the spirit is love joy, peace, patience, kindness goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."
So Mr Cheese, if you do the above things you fulfill the law, as Christ did. And if you want to belong to him, all you have to do is crucify your flesh by denying its passions and desires.
fruits of the spirit is love[,]joy, peace, patience, kindness and goodness
spirit = love, joy, peace, patience, kindness and goodness, etc.,
These attributes describe what one's spirit is about. First, one's spirit is the image of God. Secondly, one's spirit is how we conduct ourselves. Thirdly, one's spirit is our morality.
For Tillich, the function of Christ is two fold: The forgiveness of sin in baptism and the avoidance of sin through asceticism.
Medical doctors are practitioners. We avoid sin by how we practice, how we live our lives. We live by virtues (catalog of virtue,) the image of God, ability to reason and prudence. This is our morality. Homosexuality does not describe immorality. But lies and deceit do describe immorality.
One's spirit, one's morality is about our relationship.
Immorality vs. spirit
flesh vs. morality
flesh = sarx
You should know that love is the character of God. And that love is expressed by us in the following manner. 1st. Corinthians 13: 4 to 8; we read, "Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act umbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. love never fails."
Again Mr Cheese if you do all of the above you are one with God, there is no other way in which you can be any closer.
The only words that i take from others I take from the bible, the rest are my thought.
what is the number of the post that has the same ideas please!
I've listed these posts, marked words in your posts by highlighting those words. Cut and pasted those words with my post.
the rest are my thought.
I am the author of the quote, which is not a quote.
Thomas Aquinas and Augustine have no place in the bible, therefore they are as important as I am.
Well, there you go, see that your thoughts, as those thoughts of men far more knowledgeable on the subject of theology,philosophy and the Bible are by your own words, at least as important. So who is right concerning absolute truths? Do I believe what is of great importance to you or to Aquinas or Augustine? What religion is the true religion? What Christian denomination; Protestant or Catholic, Lutheran or Baptist, Pentecostal or Episcopalian?
No I know that I have the absolute truth because By his grace I have the ability to correct the errors that are in the bible.
I know that there are others with greater knowledge than yours that correct the Bible. And by your own admission, the Bible is in error. Therefore, not the Word of God. And in the need of a better translation, reinterpretation and new exegesis.
Because I believe that your ([my]) description of morality is no morality at all, but it is licentiousness.
My description of morality, is that of Aquinas and Tillich. Many of the words highlighted in your posts are used to describe morality as I have sited in Aquinas and Tillich. How is it that you can deny the definitions of such use of words and terms?
Your wife exercise tells me one thing, those people did not know God at all.
Hence my point. No one understands God. God gave you a spirit, reason and the ability to read, translate, interpret the Bible. No one can read the Bible without interpreting it. There is a long history of Christian thought that were attempts at understanding God. Some understandings have prevailed and are still being questioned. So, is your interpretation any more right than mine? Maybe you think that one of us has to be right? Sorry, but neither of us has to be right. Nobody gets it right. But somebody has to use reason, their spirit, God given and the image of God.
I ask you, did God say that you were right in your interpretation of the Bible?
free spirit
Well-Known Member
TO STRANGE
It is written "If you do not love your brother which you have seen, you cannot love God whom you have not seen"
We read in Colossians 2: 2 to 9,
2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding. Resulting in a true knowledge of God’s GRACE, that is, Christ himself,
3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with persuasive argument.
5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,
7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world rather than according to Christ.
9 For in him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
So I ask you, Re-read my posts 429 on page 43, and post 440 on page 44, and post 465 on page 47, after that you tell me if my understanding is not straight forward and clear, for God is a God of order and not of confusion.
I do not interpret the New Testament, I understand it by the grace of God.
It is written "If you do not love your brother which you have seen, you cannot love God whom you have not seen"
We read in Colossians 2: 2 to 9,
2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding. Resulting in a true knowledge of God’s GRACE, that is, Christ himself,
3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with persuasive argument.
5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,
7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world rather than according to Christ.
9 For in him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
So I ask you, Re-read my posts 429 on page 43, and post 440 on page 44, and post 465 on page 47, after that you tell me if my understanding is not straight forward and clear, for God is a God of order and not of confusion.
I do not interpret the New Testament, I understand it by the grace of God.
Last edited:
Is it not evident that I read your posts? It is evident that you are a literalitst. Given that, your understanding is not clear for it lacks validity. But it is confusing when you say that, you are able to interpret the Bible. You don't interpret the Bible, you allow modern day translations to interpret it for you. Hiding behind words and accepting blindly others translations as an interpretation is not using God's gift of spirit. Your words are without merit. You can not participate in a discussion let alone a debate given your literalist interpretation. It is your way or no way. Your absolutivism leaves no room for justification other than words in the Bible. Only when the Bible leaves you questioning do you then seek a simplistic explanation.
Look, your faith belongs to you and those that worship with you. I am not here to convince you to alter your belief system. You must be very aware that other Christians do not believe as you do. I think it was a concern with another literalist group that American Christians had forsaken their God. Given all the different ways of Christian belief, you have got to question whether your's or their's is the right belief system. Ironically, their belief is as strong as yours.
My system of interpreting the Bible is a search for the truth. I will never know the truth until the day God reveals the truth to me. So no matter what I do in this life I can only strive for the truth. I left your way of the truth along time ago. My journey, walk with God, only crosses the path of a literalist from time to time.
Last edited:
free spirit
Well-Known Member
free spirit
Well-Known Member
TO STRANGE
WHAT IS TRUTH?
All believers, regardless of denominational creed search for the assurance of understanding what is truth, because it seems that truth in this world is continually changing, as in what was true yesterday is no longer true today. However you can be assured that God’s universal truth is still the same as it has always been, unaltered and unalterable. As darkness cannot put out the light, even so lies and speculations cannot alter the truth. But unfortunately the lies and speculations have the capacity to lure us to focus on other unimportant things, those things may be not necessarily bad, nevertheless they are sufficient to cause us to miss the true purpose of our call, which is to walk towards God’s universal unchangeable truth.
You may well ask, what is God’s universal unchangeable truth? Bear with me for a moment, and God willing I will try to point it out to you. In the gospel of John 18 – 33 to 38, we read of an exchange between Pilate the Roman governor and Jesus. It unfolds in the following manner: “Pilate therefore entered again into the praetorium, and summoned Jesus, and said to him: Are you the king of the Jews? Jesus answered, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about me?” Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priest delivered you up to me; what have you done?” Jesus answered. My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world, then my servant would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, my kingdom is not of this realm.”
Pilate therefore said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered: “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.”
Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no guilt in him.”
If we superficially read the above exchange between Pilate and Jesus we will also be left asking, “What is truth?” But if we look more closely some interesting facts will emerge. Such as “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” And then Jesus makes an extraordinary statement about the human race. “Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.” What does it mean? And how did Jesus, by coming into the world beared witness to the truth? Or, how can anyone be of the truth? The answer of course, through God’s wisdom, is staring at us in the face, we can all see it, but it can’t be perceived, unless it is spiritually revealed to us.
Because by the wisdom of God, the answer to “what is truth?” came out from Pilate’s own mouth, in the form of his judgement of Jesus. “I find no guilt in him.” In other words, “he is holy,” “he is without sin.” We can see, that by being holy even unto death he has fulfilled his primary mission, which speaks thus, “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” That is to say, Jesus has shown us in words and deeds how to be holy, or how to be of the truth. (Which is not by mere chance the heart of the gospel.)
And so we came to the most simple and worldwide-understood principle, because on the day that we are also to face judgement, that is all the truth that matters, for God will judge the world only according to our holiness or lack of it. Think about it, is it possible to believe in God, and yet practice sin? Is believing some denominational doctrine or an historical fact enough to be saved? Does not even Satan believe?
But by the grace of God, we of the human race have been given a golden opportunity; “to be of the truth, which enables us to hear his still and holy voice” all we have to have is the sincere desire to be holy, (Remember Cornelius Acts 10 – 1 to 4,) and if we are a true believer that should not be too difficult for us. After that the Holy Spirit will lead each individual into repentance, for he knows the right way for each one of us, and as we obey the prompting of the Holy Spirit, our inner attitude toward our fellow men and ourselves will change for the better, until we are at peace with God, at peace with ourselves and with the world.
And on the day of judgement the righteous judge also will utter from his mouth, “I find no guilt in him.” On that day we will be changed from, “who is of the truth” into “who is part of the truth.”
What more is there to say? For I am fully convinced that if one doesn’t know anything, about anything, but practises the beliefs that are in Jesus and, or, lives his life by the principles of the gospel of holiness, he, I am sure is acceptable to God.
Glory to God
WHAT IS TRUTH?
All believers, regardless of denominational creed search for the assurance of understanding what is truth, because it seems that truth in this world is continually changing, as in what was true yesterday is no longer true today. However you can be assured that God’s universal truth is still the same as it has always been, unaltered and unalterable. As darkness cannot put out the light, even so lies and speculations cannot alter the truth. But unfortunately the lies and speculations have the capacity to lure us to focus on other unimportant things, those things may be not necessarily bad, nevertheless they are sufficient to cause us to miss the true purpose of our call, which is to walk towards God’s universal unchangeable truth.
You may well ask, what is God’s universal unchangeable truth? Bear with me for a moment, and God willing I will try to point it out to you. In the gospel of John 18 – 33 to 38, we read of an exchange between Pilate the Roman governor and Jesus. It unfolds in the following manner: “Pilate therefore entered again into the praetorium, and summoned Jesus, and said to him: Are you the king of the Jews? Jesus answered, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about me?” Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priest delivered you up to me; what have you done?” Jesus answered. My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world, then my servant would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, my kingdom is not of this realm.”
Pilate therefore said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered: “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.”
Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no guilt in him.”
If we superficially read the above exchange between Pilate and Jesus we will also be left asking, “What is truth?” But if we look more closely some interesting facts will emerge. Such as “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” And then Jesus makes an extraordinary statement about the human race. “Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.” What does it mean? And how did Jesus, by coming into the world beared witness to the truth? Or, how can anyone be of the truth? The answer of course, through God’s wisdom, is staring at us in the face, we can all see it, but it can’t be perceived, unless it is spiritually revealed to us.
Because by the wisdom of God, the answer to “what is truth?” came out from Pilate’s own mouth, in the form of his judgement of Jesus. “I find no guilt in him.” In other words, “he is holy,” “he is without sin.” We can see, that by being holy even unto death he has fulfilled his primary mission, which speaks thus, “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” That is to say, Jesus has shown us in words and deeds how to be holy, or how to be of the truth. (Which is not by mere chance the heart of the gospel.)
And so we came to the most simple and worldwide-understood principle, because on the day that we are also to face judgement, that is all the truth that matters, for God will judge the world only according to our holiness or lack of it. Think about it, is it possible to believe in God, and yet practice sin? Is believing some denominational doctrine or an historical fact enough to be saved? Does not even Satan believe?
But by the grace of God, we of the human race have been given a golden opportunity; “to be of the truth, which enables us to hear his still and holy voice” all we have to have is the sincere desire to be holy, (Remember Cornelius Acts 10 – 1 to 4,) and if we are a true believer that should not be too difficult for us. After that the Holy Spirit will lead each individual into repentance, for he knows the right way for each one of us, and as we obey the prompting of the Holy Spirit, our inner attitude toward our fellow men and ourselves will change for the better, until we are at peace with God, at peace with ourselves and with the world.
And on the day of judgement the righteous judge also will utter from his mouth, “I find no guilt in him.” On that day we will be changed from, “who is of the truth” into “who is part of the truth.”
What more is there to say? For I am fully convinced that if one doesn’t know anything, about anything, but practises the beliefs that are in Jesus and, or, lives his life by the principles of the gospel of holiness, he, I am sure is acceptable to God.
Glory to God
Last edited:
". . . the traditional definition of virtues as good qualities of soul disposing us to live rightly, which we cannot misuse, and which God works in us without our help. This definition collects together the material subject to which virtue gives a form, . . ., the purpose it serves and its agent cause. . . . (The subject with which virtue is concerned is not mentioned, for that is its object and defines it as a particular type of virtue.) . . . So to distinguish virtues from vices - which always dispose to bad action - the definition says they dispose us to live rightly; an to distinguish them from dispositions which incline us either to good or to evil, it says they cannot be misused.
Summa Theologiae, Thomas Aquinas, edited by Timothy McDermott, pp. 232.
Ok, in English, honesty has nothing to do with whether murder is moral or immoral. You are confusing the subject of morality to the object of morality. As Aquinas says above, "the subject with which virtue is concerned is not mentioned, for that is its object and defines it as a particular type of virtue."
It is the subject of morality that I have continually described in my definition of morality, of the catalogue of virtues and vices. So if the list of vices lists immorality, the usage of immorality is describing what the list is, not that the list is the object of morality. The catalogue is about the subject of morality. Therefore, it is not about particular objects of morality. Hence, homosexuality could not be subject of morality. It is an act. It is not a subject of morality any more than it is an object of morality. It is neither a vice or a virtue.
true love is feeling the same love for everything. it does not say anywhere that you must love your wife and children more then the rest of the world.
i would like to also add that the woman's anatomy is not the only artistic thing on the planet. god is quite an artist when it comes to his creations. i would suggest that there is nothing wrong with liking the look of a same gender person.
and for advice, your desire to be with a same gender in a intimate way hints that there was past exposure to bad expirienced relationships with the opposite gender. try to find out what it is about opposite gender that has hurt you t the point to dislike it. or it could very well be that you like something so much about the opposite gender that you wish to be more like it.
i wish you the best of luck in finding your true self.
i would like to also add that the woman's anatomy is not the only artistic thing on the planet. god is quite an artist when it comes to his creations. i would suggest that there is nothing wrong with liking the look of a same gender person.
and for advice, your desire to be with a same gender in a intimate way hints that there was past exposure to bad expirienced relationships with the opposite gender. try to find out what it is about opposite gender that has hurt you t the point to dislike it. or it could very well be that you like something so much about the opposite gender that you wish to be more like it.
i wish you the best of luck in finding your true self.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
So it is the subject or the object that is sin or immoral like.
Wife swapping, the couple concerned agree to it, therefore according to you is neither a vice or a virtue; Do I understand you correctly?
Last edited:
free spirit
Well-Known Member
Last edited:
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
You cannot talk to a closed mind...
:flirt: there is only one truth, the one free spirit says is the truth....
not ackwoledging interpretation, as there is only one....
Lets all sit in a circle sing kumbya...and remember Jesus was a bigot
Thank you
......
being homsexual is against God.....and you will burn....
afterall sex is for procreation and only for people who are married...
to prevent children every time you have sex...a married couple should only have sex very seldom...such as once a month...
to be a true christian you must NOT use condoms or any form of sexual protection
NEVER masturbate as you will die sooner......and your hands will drop off
read the bible when you have impure thoughts of touching your spouse....
be pure...be vigilant...behave
if in doubt beat yourself with a stick and have cold showers...
REMEMBER OBEY GOD AND DONT COMMIT IMPURE ACTS
free spirit
Well-Known Member
you are correct on this one.
Do you know that the earth is flat, anyone can see that.
Do you know that the earth is a sphere anyone can work that out.
Even Job 26: 7, says that, "He stretches out the north over empty space, and hangs the earth on nothing." yes Job wrote that one thousand years BC. we just could not see it.
the sinner always fills up the guilt of their error.
......
you do not have to be that strict with yourself, but a little self control will help
Last edited:
Homosexuality is descriptive of one's sexuality, not morals. Same about heterosexuality. The catalogue of vices and virtues are lists of good living. Good living is our spirit, how we conduct ourselves.
In answer to your question let me first ask you to explore polygamy in the OT. Was polygamy a sin then?
First of all, we don't know who wrote Job or when.
Second of all, the Greeks had known the earth to be a sphere for thousands of years. It's not that hard to figure out.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
No polygamy was not a sin, nor having concubines. But that was than, now it is a sin, 1st. Timothy 3: 2, "An overseer, then must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach."
Also it is written, that those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
So, I'm confused now. It was not a sin then but it is now. What has changed to make it sinful? I'm confused, what is the sin now that wasn't then? What is the morality issue then and now?