Student Protests Against Israel Are Wonderful

[Debater Slayer]

It is ignorant and simplistic to say that it is Israel that has been oppressing Palestinians, full stop.

According to whom? You?

I think you have made it clear that the way you see the situation prioritizes Islam as some sort of ultimate threat and that basically everything else about the struggle is reducible to "Islamists" or their actions, whether merely perceived or real. Israel is the significantly more powerful party in the struggle. To say that its policies, from its position of distinct advantage, is oppressive to Palestinians seems to me both perfectly reasonable and realistic. The first step to solving a problem (such as oppression) is identifying and acknowledging it.

I can agree that Palestinians have been oppressed, and that should concern us.

But it's crucial to see that the true oppressors here are the Islamists. But it's not fashionable to criticize Islamists. I imagine most of the people protesting against Israel would claim that to criticize Islamists is "racist". Which of course would be another ignorant claim.

A rehash of the same one-dimensional points. I see no point in going in circles about this yet again. It's awash in resentment and talking points from ideologues and cultural supremacists like Sam Harris and Douglas Murray.

Islamists have been oppressing Palestinians for decades. Where was the outrage against this during these decades? Crickets.

And honestly I don't think anti-semitism is the main driving force here. I'm sure it's an aspect, but I think the far greater driving force is this half-baked, overly simplistic, narrowly focused, historically ignorant "oppressed vs. oppressor" worldview.

More of the same rehashed points, showing little to no familiarity with Palestinians' issues or what their actual concerns are.

If you really want to understand anything about this beyond the "Islamists are the problem" simplification, you can try to expand your exposure to viewpoints from people and sources other than the same ones you have repeatedly brought up or cited on this issue before.

 

[icehorse]

A nuclear power backed by many powerful countries including three other nuclear powers—the US, the UK, and France—is not "oppressed." It is fully in charge of its affairs, has a strong and extensively armed and funded military, and has a lot of geopolitical, financial, and military support from its allies.

Whether a country faces some threats from far weaker actors, such as non-state militant groups, is different from being oppressed, which typically implies more powerful or at least peer actors overseeing and enacting oppression.

Much of the force of the political Islamic world (Islamists), is backing Jihadi groups like Hamas. Islamists have systematically and relentlessly purged almost all non-Muslims from the ME. To call them weak actors is just inaccurate.

Again, I can agree that the Palestinians are weak and oppressed. And everyone who has just recently started protesting for Palestinians is either disingenuous, but probably simply ignorant of the bigger context. If they really cared about the Palestinians they would have been protesting since Hamas took over Gaza. If they just started protesting in the last six months they are - again - either ignorant or disingenuous. These days it's quite fashionable for the "woke" to jump on the latest bandwagon, and fight "the oppressors". No knowledge of history or the greater world is necessary, just follow whatever your woke leader tells you.

 

[Debater Slayer]

So the message to Israel is, sit down shut up and dont complain. The Jews did that once before.

No, the message is that policy reforms, negotiations, and a genuine push for a two-state solution would go a long way toward establishing peace in the region. Killing tens of thousands of civilians won't achieve anything other than prolonging the same problems that have existed for 75 years.

 

[Ignatius A]

Pay attention.
I said it was a sense I got from your
asking an apparent rhetorical question.

I use the quote function because it's proper
identify to whom & what I responded.
If you dislike being quoted, you're in
the wrong place.

Please, try to be interesting
instead of merely bickering.

To you? No point

It's not a rhetorical question. If Israel has a right to defend itself how do you propose they do that and not kill civilians that hamas uses as shields. Be specific.

Indi t even care if you're interesting but try to actually answer the question. Specifically

 

[Revoltingest]

I have seen protesters identify as Palestinians. I have not seen any identify as being Hamas. He may have conflated the two. Sadly I saw all of this coming when Hamas attacked Israel the way that they did. I knew that the Palestinian people would suffer more than Hamas. Overreaction by the Israelis only made a bad situation worse.

This appears to have roots in sacred texts & cultures
of the religions & people involved. Exterminating
the enemy appears to be a common them. So when
a group feels wronged, vengeance has no limit.
This explains Christians & Jews justifying genocide.

 

[Subduction Zone]

To you? No point

It's not a rhetorical question. If Israel has a right to defend itself how do you propose they do that and not kill civilians that hamas uses as shields. Be specific.

Indi t even care if you're interesting but try to actually answer the question. Specifically

After the initial strike that took away the immediate threat they should have concentrated on investigation. Instead they have been merely retaliating and giving fodder to those claiming that Israel is practicing genocide.

 

[Revoltingest]

To you? No point

I wonder...
If you openly state intention to bicker &
be uninteresting, why post to me at all?

 

[icehorse]

If you really want to understand anything about this beyond the "Islamists are the problem" simplification, you can try to expand your exposure to viewpoints from people and sources other than the same ones you have repeatedly brought up or cited on this issue before.

If you want to understand anything about this beyond the "Israel is the problem" simplification, expand your exposure.

Ask yourself why Egypt's border with Gaza has been, and continues to be, tighter than Israel's?

A rehash of the same one-dimensional points. I see no point in going in circles about this yet again. It's awash in resentment and talking points from ideologues and cultural supremacists like Sam Harris and Douglas Murray.

When any poster demonstrates that they can't separate the idea from the messenger, I know that their argument is weak.

Do you support Islamists?

 

[Mock Turtle]

I have seen protesters identify as Palestinians. I have not seen any identify as being Hamas. He may have conflated the two. Sadly I saw all of this coming when Hamas attacked Israel the way that they did. I knew that the Palestinian people would suffer more than Hamas. Overreaction by the Israelis only made a bad situation worse.

So was it purely cynical of Hamas to attack - when they might have known what would happen?

 

[Ignatius A]

No, the message is that policy reforms, negotiations, and a genuine push for a two-state solution would go a long way toward establishing peace in the region. Killing tens of thousands of civilians won't achieve anything other than prolonging the same problems that have existed for 75 years.

I agree. Now point me toward a hamas leader who has supported a two state solution. What's that chant again? Oh yeah "Palestine will be free from the river to the sea". Sounds like a fine foundation for a two state solution.

 

[Ignatius A]

I wonder...
If you openly state intention to bicker &
be uninteresting, why post to me at all?

If I'm bickering and uninteresting, then telling me to pay attention is rude and uninteresting. This response of yours was unnecessary. You can just ignore me.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So was it purely cynical of Hamas to attack - when they might have known what would happen?

I am not sure if I would use the phrase "cynical". They were probably misguided. They should have known better. They probably look at it as a sacrifice for a "greater good".

 

[Revoltingest]

If I'm bickering and uninteresting...

I'll endeavor to bother you less often.

 

[Ignatius A]

I'll endeavor to bother you less often.

That's entirely up to you.

 

[Revoltingest]

So was it purely cynical of Hamas to attack - when they might have known what would happen?

We don't know Hamas's goals,
or what results were envisioned.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I am not sure if I would use the phrase "cynical". They were probably misguided. They should have known better. They probably look at it as a sacrifice for a "greater good".

Perhaps, and they might not have expected the retaliation to have been so fierce - and especially sad for the civilian population.

 

[Mock Turtle]

We don't know Hamas's goals,
or what results were envisioned.

Was it really doubted what Israel might do after such an attack and did Hamas rely on public opinion restraining Israel? Bad gamble in my view if they did do this.

 

[Lyndon]

Perhaps, and they might not have expected the retaliation to have been so fierce - and especially sad for the civilian population.

Yes it appears they underestimated the ferocity and lack of moral principles of their enemy, not that they had that much of such themselves

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps, and they might not have expected the retaliation to have been so fierce - and especially sad for the civilian population.

It's also possible that Hamas expected deadly over-reaction.
This would serve the purpose of exposing Israel for what it's
long been, but tolerated, ie, a deadly brutal regime.
If that were the goal, Hamas has indeed succeeded in tarnishing
Israel's image, & possibly weakening US military & financial
largess. But at high cost to the civilian population.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Yes it appears they underestimated the ferocity and lack of moral principles of their enemy, not that they had that much of such themselves

When an enemy hides within the civilian population it's not so easy to get at them, hence why we have seen so many civilian casualties - even if such does seem far too excessive. I fail to see what Hamas were hoping to achieve, apart from what has resulted.