Student Protests Against Israel Are Wonderful

[Subduction Zone]

Yes it appears they underestimated the ferocity and lack of moral principles of their enemy, not that they had that much of such themselves

I have no problem condemning both groups. Israel has to find a two state solution. And they will likely have to subsidize the new nation for a while. It will still be a small price to pay in the long run.

 

[Mock Turtle]

It's also possible that Hamas expected deadly over-reaction.
This would serve the purpose of exposing Israel for what it's
long been, but tolerated, ie, a deadly brutal regime.
If that were the goal, Hamas has indeed succeeded in tarnishing
Israel's image, & possibly weakening US military & financial
largess. But at high cost to the civilian population.

Quite possible, but Hamas will no doubt have to reincarnate as some other fighting force after this ends. They will have achieved their aim of getting more to hate Israel of course.

 

[Ignatius A]

We don't know Hamas's goals,
or what results were envisioned.

We don't know their goals????? Really????

This is one of the best parts:

Palestine is a land that was seized by a racist, anti-human and colonial Zionist project that was founded on a false promise (the Balfour Declaration), on recognition of a usurping entity and on imposing a fait accompli by force.

Palestine symbolises the resistance that shall continue until liberation is accomplished, until the return is fulfilled and until a fully sovereign state is established with Jerusalem as its capital.

Hamas in 2017: The document in full

Hamas explains general principles and objectives in 42-article document

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[Ignatius A]

I have no problem condemning both groups. Israel has to find a two state solution. And they will likely have to subsidize the new nation for a while. It will still be a small price to pay in the long run.

Hamas doesnt want a two state solution though

 

[Ignatius A]

It's also possible that Hamas expected deadly over-reaction.
This would serve the purpose of exposing Israel for what it's
long been, but tolerated, ie, a deadly brutal regime.
If that were the goal, Hamas has indeed succeeded in tarnishing
Israel's image, & possibly weakening US military & financial
largess. But at high cost to the civilian population.

Wiping out a whole group of people should come at a high cost

 

[Debater Slayer]

Much of the force of the political Islamic world (Islamists), is backing Jihadi groups like Hamas. Islamists have systematically and relentlessly purged almost all non-Muslims from the ME. To call them weak actors is just inaccurate.

There is not a single entity or country currently threatening Israel that is not substantially and significantly weaker than Israel.

Also, the Middle East has many non-Muslims, so the idea that "Islamists" have "systematically and relentlessly purged" them is simplistic hyperbole. Religious minorities indeed face persecution throughout the Middle East, as is also regrettably the case in many other countries, but I don't see how this implies that a country with such repressive policies possess much geopolitical or military power. If it implied such a thing, Somalia and Afghanistan would be powerful countries.

Again, I can agree that the Palestinians are weak and oppressed. And everyone who has just recently started protesting for Palestinians is either disingenuous, but probably simply ignorant of the bigger context. If they really cared about the Palestinians they would have been protesting since Hamas took over Gaza. If they just started protesting in the last six months they are - again - either ignorant or disingenuous. These days it's quite fashionable for the "woke" to jump on the latest bandwagon, and fight "the oppressors". No knowledge of history or the greater world is necessary, just follow whatever your woke leader tells you.

I think you're overgeneralizing about and casting aspersions on the protesters because you disagree with their stance. You're not making room for the possibility that most of them are genuine, well-meaning people who are simply protesting atrocities they know are unfolding right this moment. Your assertions make it sound like there has to be something defective or sinister about them for disagreeing with your conclusions.

 

[Ignatius A]

There is not a single entity or country currently threatening Israel that is not substantially and significantly weaker than Israel.

Also, the Middle East has many non-Muslims, so the idea that "Islamists" have "systematically and relentlessly purged" them is simplistic hyperbole. Religious minorities indeed face persecution throughout the Middle East, as is also regrettably the case in many other countries, but I don't see how this implies that a country with such repressive policies possess much geopolitical or military power. If it implied such a thing, Somalia and Afghanistan would be powerful countries.



I think you're overgeneralizing about and casting aspersions on the protesters because you disagree with their stance. You're not making room for the possibility that most of them are genuine, well-meaning people who are simply protesting atrocities they know are unfolding right this moment. Your assertions make it sound like there has to be something defective or sinister about them for disagreeing with your conclusions.

Iran?

 

[Debater Slayer]

If you want to understand anything about this beyond the "Israel is the problem" simplification, expand your exposure.

Except, of course, that I haven't exclusively attributed the problem to Israel.

Ask yourself why Egypt's border with Gaza has been, and continues to be, tighter than Israel's?

I would answer this if I talked about Egyptian politics online. In a nutshell, though, what I can say is that the average Arab citizen has little to no say in geopolitical decisions. If they did, many things would be different than they are now—whether any given individual would see the differences as being for the better or the worse.

When any poster demonstrates that they can't separate the idea from the messenger, I know that their argument is weak.

The idea is one-dimensional, rooted in overgeneralization, and dismissive of an entire people's rights and concerns.

Do you support Islamists?

No, I don't. It's amusing for me to be asked this question considering that Islamism regards people like me as deserving of death for "apostasy." Anyone who is even moderately familiar with my posts and the views I have expressed on RF knows that Islamism poses an existential threat to people like me, is diametrically opposed to my values and what I stand for, and is the primary reason I want to move to a secular state as soon as I can.

Your question seems to me a case in point that criticizing Israel's policies can get people inaccurately labeled as "Islamists," "Islamist sympathizers," etc., though.

 

[Revoltingest]

Quite possible, but Hamas will no doubt have to reincarnate as some other fighting force after this ends. They will have achieved their aim of getting more to hate Israel of course.

Hamas exists in multiple countries,
so Israel's goal of exterminating them
looks doomed to failure.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Iran?

Iran's military is vastly inferior to Israel's in terms of technology, funding, and training, and Iran has nowhere near as many powerful allies as Israel does. It also has no nukes (at least so far), unlike Israel.

 

[Revoltingest]

We don't know their goals????? Really????

This is one of the best parts:

Palestine is a land that was seized by a racist, anti-human and colonial Zionist project that was founded on a false promise (the Balfour Declaration), on recognition of a usurping entity and on imposing a fait accompli by force.

Palestine symbolises the resistance that shall continue until liberation is accomplished, until the return is fulfilled and until a fully sovereign state is established with Jerusalem as its capital.

Hamas in 2017: The document in full

Hamas explains general principles and objectives in 42-article document

www.middleeasteye.net

This doesn't address specific goals of the Oct attack.

 

[fantome profane]

I think it is you who are misunderstanding. In the ME it is Israel who is oppressed.

You are displaying exactly the kind of black and white think that you are accusing these students of. One side being bad does not make the other side good. The horrible actions of Hamas does not make the current Israeli government good, and the horrible actions of the Israeli government does not make Hamas good.

Terrorists attacks on innocent people is bad. The indiscriminate slaughter of civilians in an attempt to kill terrorists is bad. Allowing people to starve to death is bad. Taking actions that prevent starving people from getting food is bad.

And protests designed to stop the U.S. government from helping these atrocities, that is good.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I agree. Now point me toward a hamas leader who has supported a two state solution. What's that chant again? Oh yeah "Palestine will be free from the river to the sea". Sounds like a fine foundation for a two state solution.

Neither Hamas nor Israel seems inclined to support an enduring two-state solution right now. Both of them need to do so, and both also need to not kill civilians. Do you agree or disagree with that?

 

[Ignatius A]

Iran's military is vastly inferior to Israel's in terms of technology, funding, and training, and Iran has nowhere near as many powerful allies as Israel does. It also has no nukes (at least so far), unlike Israel.

They aren't hamas and bring significant resources to bear. Behind that hamas is committed to ridding the land of jews

 

[Debater Slayer]

They aren't hamas and bring significant resources to bear. Behind that hamas is committed to ridding the land of jews

Yes, Iran supports Hamas. I don't see how that changes my point that Iran is militarily, politically, and economically weaker than Israel.

I see Iran as a hostile actor in the Middle East too, but a recurrent and mistaken assumption in this thread seems to be that if someone criticizes either of two parties that are hostile to each other, they must be supportive of the other party.

 

[Ignatius A]

Neither Hamas nor Israel seems inclined to support an enduring two-state solution right now. Both of them need to do so, and both also need to not kill civilians. Do you agree or disagree with that?

I agree wholeheartedly but only one side has suggested a two state solution is not acceptable. That one side is also quite clear what it does want.

 

[icehorse]

There is not a single entity or country currently threatening Israel that is not substantially and significantly weaker than Israel.

"currently threatening" seems misleading.

Who has been furnishing weapons to Hamas for the last 20 years?

I would answer this if I talked about Egyptian politics online. In a nutshell, though, what I can say is that the average Arab citizen has little to no say in geopolitical decisions. If they did, many things would be different than they are now—whether any given individual would see the differences as being for the better or the worse.

Washing one's hands of an affair has a long, sordid history.

The idea is one-dimensional, rooted in overgeneralization, and dismissive of an entire people's rights and concerns.

This ^^ was talking about your response, not the protestor's. YOU brought Douglas Murray and Sam Harris into the conversation.

You decided that the messenger was more important than the idea. That smacks of a weak argument in my book

No, I don't. It's amusing for me to be asked this question considering that Islamism regards people like me as deserving of death for "apostasy." Anyone who is even moderately familiar with my posts and the views I have expressed on RF knows that Islamism poses an existential threat to people like me, is diametrically opposed to my values and what I stand for, and is the primary reason I want to move to a secular state as soon as I can.

Your question seems to me a case in point that criticizing Israel's policies can get people inaccurately labeled as "Islamists," "Islamist sympathizers," etc., though.

Yes, I understand your long standing stance and situation.

I would say that most of these late-to-the-party protestors are unwittingly acting as Islamist sympathizers. Hamas has been oppressing Palestinians for 20 years now. Why haven't we seen these kinds of protests for the last 20 years?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I agree wholeheartedly but only one side has suggested a two state solution is not acceptable. That one side is also quite clear what it does want.

Netanyahu's government is guilty of aggressively undermining a two-state solution:

Netanyahu hands Smotrich full authority to expand existing settlements

Cabinet decision with immediate effect also dramatically expedites approval process for construction at settlements, scraps requirement for okay from defense minister or cabinet

www.timesofisrael.com

Netanyahu government makes West Bank settlement expansion its priority

Hardline coalition vows to legalise dozens of illegally built outposts and annex the occupied territory

www.theguardian.com

Netanyahu boasts of thwarting the establishment of a Palestinian state ‘for decades’

PM says his opposition to Palestinian statehood has only intensified since Oct. 7, vows Israel to 'maintain full security control over all territory west of the Jordan River'

www.timesofisrael.com

Israeli ministers join ultranationalist conference urging Gaza resettlement

Revealed: Israel has sped up settlement-building in East Jerusalem since Gaza war began

Exclusive: Government ministries and offices behind most contentious of projects, which will create thousands of housing units

www.theguardian.com

 

[icehorse]

You are displaying exactly the kind of black and white think that you are accusing these students of. One side being bad does not make the other side good. The horrible actions of Hamas does not make the current Israeli government good, and the horrible actions of the Israeli government does not make Hamas good.

Terrorists attacks on innocent people is bad. The indiscriminate slaughter of civilians in an attempt to kill terrorists is bad. Allowing people to starve to death is bad. Taking actions that prevent starving people from getting food is bad.

And protests designed to stop the U.S. government from helping these atrocities, that is good.

As I've said repeatedly on this forum, this Israel vs. Palestine issue is extremely complex.

Anyone who thinks they have an easy answer (e.g. these protestors), is demonstrating their ignorance of the situation.

I am not attempting to make any black and white claims, I'm attempting to demonstrate that we must see the bigger picture if we want to solve the problem.

 

[Revoltingest]

Netanyahu's government is guilty of aggressively undermining a two-state solution:

Netanyahu hands Smotrich full authority to expand existing settlements

Cabinet decision with immediate effect also dramatically expedites approval process for construction at settlements, scraps requirement for okay from defense minister or cabinet

www.timesofisrael.com

Netanyahu government makes West Bank settlement expansion its priority

Hardline coalition vows to legalise dozens of illegally built outposts and annex the occupied territory

www.theguardian.com

Netanyahu boasts of thwarting the establishment of a Palestinian state ‘for decades’

PM says his opposition to Palestinian statehood has only intensified since Oct. 7, vows Israel to 'maintain full security control over all territory west of the Jordan River'

www.timesofisrael.com

Israeli ministers join ultranationalist conference urging Gaza resettlement

Revealed: Israel has sped up settlement-building in East Jerusalem since Gaza war began

Exclusive: Government ministries and offices behind most contentious of projects, which will create thousands of housing units

www.theguardian.com

Add to the above....

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041H2/

Excerpted...
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel told U.S. officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy "on the brink of collapse" while avoiding a humanitarian crisis, according to U.S. diplomatic cables published by a Norwegian daily on Wednesday.
Three cables cited by the Aftenposten newspaper, which has said it has all 250,000 U.S. cables leaked to WikiLeaks, showed that Israel kept the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv briefed on its internationally criticised blockade of the Gaza Strip.