Student Protests Against Israel Are Wonderful

[Debater Slayer]

"currently threatening" seems misleading.

Who has been furnishing weapons to Hamas for the last 20 years?

I think this part of my previous post addresses the above:

Yes, Iran supports Hamas. I don't see how that changes my point that Iran is militarily, politically, and economically weaker than Israel.

That Iran is hostile to Israel, and vice versa, doesn't change that Iran is the weaker party in multiple key ways.

Washing one's hands of an affair has a long, sordid history.

I don't know what you mean here. It's a fact that in almost every Arab country, the average citizen has little to no say in geopolitical decisions.

This ^^ was talking about your response, not the protestor's. YOU brought Douglas Murray and Sam Harris into the conversation.

You decided that the messenger was more important than the idea. That smacks of a weak argument in my book

I brought them into the conversation to underline that taking one's points from just a few sources is bound to give a lopsided and incomplete viewpoint, especially when those sources are as ideologically prejudiced as those two people are.

Yes, I understand your long standing stance and situation.

Then why did you ask me that question? Are people in the habit of supporting beliefs that regard them as capital criminals and promote killing them?

I would say that most of these late-to-the-party protestors are unwittingly acting as Islamist sympathizers. Hamas has been oppressing Palestinians for 20 years now. Why haven't we seen these kinds of protests for the last 20 years?

The scale and intensity of the IDF's killing of civilians and inflicting injury and starvation on them this time is unprecedented in the conflict. I think it makes a lot of sense that the atrocities would therefore attract more attention, including more condemnation and protests, than any past events in the conflict.

 

[icehorse]

I brought them into the conversation to underline that taking one's points from just a few sources is bound to give a lopsided and incomplete viewpoint, especially when those sources are as ideologically prejudiced as those two people are

Who have no idea what my sources are and you seem to be discounting my ability to look at the evidence in the world and think for myself.

Do I have that correct?

The scale and intensity of the IDF's killing of civilians and inflicting injury and starvation on them this time is unprecedented in the conflict. I think it makes a lot of sense that the atrocities would therefore attract more attention, including more condemnation and protests, than any past events in the conflict.

We hear over and over again how, prior to last fall's attack, Gaza was "an open air prison" and "under apartheid" and so on. All of the protests were anti-Israel. None acknowledged Hamas's role in making Gaza horrible for the last 20 years.

Are we to ignore all of that?

 

[Revoltingest]

We hear over and over again how, prior to last fall's attack, Gaza was "an open air prison" and "under apartheid" and so on. All of the protests were anti-Israel. None acknowledged Hamas's role in making Gaza horrible for the last 20 years.

As long as you deny Israel's oppression of Palestinians
for 75 years, & the consequent reactions to it, you'll
never understand why the violence has long endured.
Nor that the current genocide will inspire even more
violent retaliation against Israel.
Your posts appear to blame only Muslims, & to give
Israel no responsibility for consequences of Israel's
brutality. This is the myopia driving both Israel &
USA leadership, & preventing any peaceful resolution.

 

[icehorse]

That Iran is hostile to Israel, and vice versa, doesn't change that Iran is the weaker party in multiple key ways.

Iran does not face an existential threat from Israel.
Israel faces an ongoing existential threat from Islamists.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hamas doesnt want a two state solution though

That is true. So Israel has to appeal directly to the Palestinian people. They may have to enforce the right to elections in the territories that they sent people to. Either them or the UN. It is a pity that the UN is largely toothless. The country of Israel has to act like a responsible parent. Not a child abuser that tries to whip his children into obeying.

Like it or not Israel is part of the problem and they do owe the Palestinians a bit. Just because they won the early wars where they were attacked does not give them carte blanche to abuse the Palestinians forever.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Add to the above....

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041H2/

Excerpted...
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel told U.S. officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy "on the brink of collapse" while avoiding a humanitarian crisis, according to U.S. diplomatic cables published by a Norwegian daily on Wednesday.
Three cables cited by the Aftenposten newspaper, which has said it has all 250,000 U.S. cables leaked to WikiLeaks, showed that Israel kept the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv briefed on its internationally criticised blockade of the Gaza Strip.

Yeah, that does not look so good for Israel. One wonders how long they thought that they could get away for it. It is almost as if they wanted to eventually force an armed uprising. Perhaps I am being a bit too cynical.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, that does not look so good for Israel. One wonders how long they thought that they could get away for it. It is almost as if they wanted to eventually force an armed uprising. Perhaps I am being a bit too cynical.

Subjecting a population to poverty greatly
increases risk of radicalization & violence.
Are Israelis too dumb to know this, or is this
an intended consequence?
I dislike both answers.

 

[esmith]

How many non-citizen Hamas members have been found at protests?

Have they looked? Have they taken anyone into custody that says they are Hamas? This includes those here on a Visa.

 

[Godobeyer]

I like seeing that a significant segment of society
is bucking the status quo of unqualified for Israel's
apartheid, human rights violations, fleecing US
taxpayers, & conducting genocide.
Students are often a bellwether. I hope this
portends a shift away from USA supporting vile
regimes.

Protests in New York as US campuses brace for more unrest over Gaza war: Updates

Columbia University, the epicenter of the demonstrations, said classes will provide a virtual learning option through the end of the semester.

www.usatoday.com

I think Americians late awaking but it's ok, I can't believe my country had no limited help to other country.while Americans are suffer by taxes and homelless and bad medical services ...etc.
I think AIPAC ,and zionists **mod edit** are main problem of Americans .
I think even some Christains are awaking from foolish idea of Chosen people.

 

[Pogo]

Have they looked? Have they taken anyone into custody that says they are Hamas? This includes those here on a Visa.

Seriously, you think they are not looking and that they have not found any is evidence that Hamas is behind the protests?
No, It is a lot of people who are disgusted with the killing on both sides.

 

[icehorse]

As long as you deny Israel's oppression of Palestinians
for 75 years, & the consequent reactions to it, you'll
never understand why the violence has long endured.

As long as you deny Islamist's denial of Israel's right to exist for 75 years, you'll never understand why the violence has long endured.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Who have no idea what my sources are and you seem to be discounting my ability to look at the evidence in the world and think for myself.

Do I have that correct?

No, you don't. I'm commenting on sources you have cited in your own posts before. You have made threads about this subject and posted videos featuring Sam Harris and/or Douglas Murray in more than one of those. That's what I'm referring to.

We hear over and over again how, prior to last fall's attack, Gaza was "an open air prison" and "under apartheid" and so on. All of the protests were anti-Israel. None acknowledged Hamas's role in making Gaza horrible for the last 20 years.

Are we to ignore all of that?

As long as Israel remains the far more powerful party in the conflict, it will have the upper hand in shaping the future of the conflict and therefore be held responsible proportionately to how powerful it is. Acknowledging Hamas' role is necessary, but it doesn't negate this.

 

[Ignatius A]

Neither Hamas nor Israel seems inclined to support an enduring two-state solution right now. Both of them need to do so, and both also need to not kill civilians. Do you agree or disagree with that?

I agree wholeheartedly but only one side has suggested a two state solution is not acceptable. That one side is also quite clear what it does want.

Netanyahu's government is guilty of aggressively undermining a two-state solution:

Netanyahu hands Smotrich full authority to expand existing settlements

Cabinet decision with immediate effect also dramatically expedites approval process for construction at settlements, scraps requirement for okay from defense minister or cabinet

www.timesofisrael.com

Netanyahu government makes West Bank settlement expansion its priority

Hardline coalition vows to legalise dozens of illegally built outposts and annex the occupied territory

www.theguardian.com

Netanyahu boasts of thwarting the establishment of a Palestinian state ‘for decades’

PM says his opposition to Palestinian statehood has only intensified since Oct. 7, vows Israel to 'maintain full security control over all territory west of the Jordan River'

www.timesofisrael.com

Israeli ministers join ultranationalist conference urging Gaza resettlement

Revealed: Israel has sped up settlement-building in East Jerusalem since Gaza war began

Exclusive: Government ministries and offices behind most contentious of projects, which will create thousands of housing units

www.theguardian.com

Ok and with a change in leadership that might change for israel. Hamas however is quite clear what it wants and a change in leadership of hamas is not likely to change that.

 

[Godobeyer]

Does Israel have a right to defend itself?

If you believe that Israel is fighting Hamas , it's big problem .
Israel is killing civilians as much they can.

 

[Godobeyer]

I like seeing that a significant segment of society
is bucking the status quo of unqualified for Israel's
apartheid, human rights violations, fleecing US
taxpayers, & conducting genocide.
Students are often a bellwether. I hope this
portends a shift away from USA supporting vile
regimes.

Protests in New York as US campuses brace for more unrest over Gaza war: Updates

Columbia University, the epicenter of the demonstrations, said classes will provide a virtual learning option through the end of the semester.

www.usatoday.com

I just upload this video to my youtube for you

 

[Debater Slayer]

Ok and with a change in leadership that might change for israel. Hamas however is quite clear what it wants and a change in leadership of hamas is not likely to change that.

Neither of us knows what a change in Israel's or Hamas' leadership would bring. We can only speculate at this point, especially with how much escalation and volatility is looming over the region right now.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I like seeing that a significant segment of society
is bucking the status quo of unqualified for Israel's
apartheid, human rights violations, fleecing US
taxpayers, & conducting genocide.
Students are often a bellwether. I hope this
portends a shift away from USA supporting vile
regimes.

Protests in New York as US campuses brace for more unrest over Gaza war: Updates

Columbia University, the epicenter of the demonstrations, said classes will provide a virtual learning option through the end of the semester.

www.usatoday.com

It's good. People need to know who the antisemitic crowd is.

 

[Ignatius A]

That is true. So Israel has to appeal directly to the Palestinian people. They may have to enforce the right to elections in the territories that they sent people to. Either them or the UN. It is a pity that the UN is largely toothless. The country of Israel has to act like a responsible parent. Not a child abuser that tries to whip his children into obeying.

Like it or not Israel is part of the problem and they do owe the Palestinians a bit. Just because they won the early wars where they were attacked does not give them carte blanche to abuse the Palestinians forever.

I agree Israel isnt blameless but they are dealing with an entity that is clear in its intention regarding Israel.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Do you consider killing 15,000 women and children defending yourself?

Do you regard Palestinian militants as giving a damm?

 

[Godobeyer]

I'm saying that Islamists (Hamas and others), are using Palestinians as pawns in their endless war to oppress and exterminate Israel.

No it's Israel used to oppression/kill Palestinians by any reason, Hamas is just one reasons.