"Student's 'Jesus' shirt sparks feud with school"

[HerDotness]

Not really. In both countries it depends on the employer and the symbol/clothing.

Where did I suggest that in the U.S. all employers forbid overtly religious clothing and symbols?

I don't know what Canadian employers do, but plenty of U.S. ones prohibit even benign religious items worn by employees. A number of retail stores do so.

 

[fantome profane]

Where did I suggest that in the U.S. all employers forbid overtly religious clothing and symbols?

I don't know what Canadian employers do, but plenty of U.S. ones prohibit even benign religious items worn by employees. A number of retail stores do so.

*...and the land of the free.*

 

[Skwim]

Where did I suggest that in the U.S. all employers forbid overtly religious clothing and symbols?

When you don't qualify a term there is no way anyone could correctly guess in what way it might be qualified or that it even should be, which is why terms that go unqualified, such as your use of "Canadian employers" and "the U.S.," are considered to be all inclusive. So, by default---no qualifiers to the contrary---your statement denotes all employers.

 

[HerDotness]

You evidently overlooked or don't recall what I said in my posting #114:

Religious headgear, clothing and visible jewelry (as well as the Darwin footed fish sported by some non-believers) are all forbidden by many U.S. employers. What's the big deal about banning them in public schools? ["Many" clearly being the qualifier.]

Few nationwide retail stores permit overt religious or political expressions by employees.

 

[Me Myself]

Job and school are two different things.

 

[Nakosis]

You evidently overlooked or don't recall what I said in my posting #114:

Religious headgear, clothing and visible jewelry (as well as the Darwin footed fish sported by some non-believers) are all forbidden by many U.S. employers. What's the big deal about banning them in public schools? ["Many" clearly being the qualifier.]

Few nationwide retail stores permit overt religious or political expressions by employees.

There's a financial motivation for such regulation. One doesn't want to **** off/offend potential customers.

In religious store that caters to a specific clientele, probably not such a big deal...

 

[HerDotness]

Job and school are two different things.

All the more reason, I think, to ban overt, visible religious items worn at school, because it's much more difficult typically to quit public school and be accepted into another than it is to quit a job and find one that permits whatever you prefer.

Canadians may be much more sensible than Americans and don't have a problem with taking time from classes to conduct informational sessions on understanding others' religious expressions and their importance.

U.S. schools are far too likely to ban such things because it's easier, less time-consuming and less costly to do that rather than educating students on how controversial issues can be dealt with reasonably and graciously. Sad, but it happens all too often in the U.S.

 

[Me Myself]

All the more reason, I think, to ban overt, visible religious items worn at school, because it's much more difficult typically to quit public school and be accepted into another than it is to quit a job and find one that permits whatever you prefer.

But that´s exactly why it should be ALLOWEd in school :areyoucra

 

[HerDotness]

There's a financial motivation for such regulation. One doesn't want to **** off/offend potential customers.

In religious store that caters to a specific clientele, probably not such a big deal...

And U.S. public schools operate on a somewhat similar philosophy--why court the potential for disruption or fights when a student is offended by another student's "free expression" of religion.

What's sad is that so many Christians who strongly support prayer in schools are adamant that it means only prayer to the "true God," their own, of course.

I once discussed this with a fundamentalist Christian and said (as a teacher at the time), "Absolutely. I think we should reinstate prayer in school. Jewish, Buddhist, Pagan, Wiccan, the Scientologist equivalent--I expect they have something along those lines, Taoist, Confucian, Hindu...well, there are probably others that might be represented by one or more of our students at one time or another. We'll just rotate, carefully scheduling so as to give each religion's prayer equal representation."

She was outraged. That was completely unacceptable....obviously. What WAS I thinking to suggest such a thing?

Oh, I don't know...maybe fairness, justice and openmindedness?

I don't necessarily think it's fair, just or openminded to ban religious clothing and jewelry, but it's far more expedient as I said previously. The reality being what it is in U.S. public schools and the minds of taxpayers when their tax dollars aren't spent on pushing subject matter every moment.

 

[Me Myself]

I say prayers in schools are great.

A great way for students to make use of their recess time

 

[Vinayaka]

I was, and still would be, if asked, an inter-faith representative. A friend of a friend invited me to speak on Hinduism at a Catholic high school when they studied other religions. I think it went over reasonably well. At least I can't remember having stones or insults thrown my way.

I think its good, for high school kids in ethics classes, or faith classes, to hear an alternate view ... just for the sake of tolerance. They liked the Sanskrit, as I recall.

 

[Songbird]

In any case, it doesn't matter to me what the school board decided to do. At this point the news coverage is more of a distraction than a decision based on the original issue. The fact that this is an issue at all (and one propagated by the kid's dad and pastor and not the kid himself) is really what annoys me. Schools simply should have authority in this kind of thing.

I'm unfamiliar with Canadian education, but in the U.S. whenever this has been an issue I just shake my head at the paradox of what the public wants. The money we spend on the educational system apparently doesn't improve test scores, and we seem to be almost as outraged about t-shirts as we do about scores. As Sunstone commented elsewhere, since when does a t-shirt get a person a job?

I don't think the dad and pastor care about the educational quality of the boy's school as much as they care about their duty to evangelize. Although I understand the compelling nature of the evangelical directive, it's just not the job of the school to support that. And there are other ways to do it - a student led Bible study or prayer group, for example. But this issue has snowballed into a media circus, largely due to the pastor and father making it a personal agenda.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Are you kidding? . . . or is it a case of misunderstanding my posts or should I concede an inability to express myself clearly?

In any event, I don't want my education tax dollars wasted on determining policies for other people's children to express their superstitions. Keeping all religions and expressions of faith out of public schools is the only suitable option in a multicultural society.

I misunderstood you. My fault, not yours. I reacted to what looked like the notion that the kid's shirt = religious expression.


Personally, I thought my high school's staff spent too much time worrying about shirts they ought not to have worried about.

But as a non-Christian public school student, an "I love jesus" T-shirt wouldn't have been any more bothersome than wearing a crucifix necklace.

The shirt in question, however, is over the line.

 

[McBell]

If I were the principle, I would encourage the students at the school to not allow the religious beliefs of others to disrupt their education.

You still have to deal with the disruptions.

 

[Gomeza]

You're not arguing in favour of multiculturalism; you're arguing that it's best if we abandon multiculturalism... at least in public schools.

You've missed the point entirely. Multiculturalism is a fact of life in Canada, a philosophy that in principle gives us a framework for multiple cultures coexisting within the same country. Where I agree that religion can be a vital aspect of any given culture, the right to express that religion (any religion) is not absolute in all social settings. There are places and times where it is not appropriate.

To be in favor of a no religious expression policy in public schools, does not in any way infringe upon the philosophy of multiculturalism, as long as all religions are treated the same.

 

[waitasec]

You still have to deal with the disruptions.

life is one disruption after another...

 

[Nakosis]

You still have to deal with the disruptions.

We all have to deal with disruption. I think in the process of that we should try to treat everyone fairly and equally without any regard for individual religious belief.

 

[Katzpur]

When I taught, lots of kids wore necklaces with crosses on them, tucked under, the Mormon kids wore their underwear, bracelets had religious iconography etc. We had cover-up sweaters for cleavage, (You think this shirt was distracting!) and lots more censorship. Marijuana shirts, violent shirts, sexual innuendo shirts and more were covered up.

Uh... Mormon kids wear the same kind of underwear as anybody else. It's only adult members of the Church who have participated in the temple endowment ceremony who wear Mormon temple garments thereafter. The only thing that could potentially have identified a kid as a Mormon would be a "CTR" ring. "CTR" stands for "Choose the Right." It's sort of along the same lines as "WWJD" ("What would Jesus do?") jewelry that some Protestant kids wear.

 

[Vinayaka]

Uh... Mormon kids wear the same kind of underwear as anybody else. It's only adult members of the Church who have participated in the temple endowment ceremony who wear Mormon temple garments thereafter.

Sorry about that ... shows my ignorance ... will go edit that part out.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You've missed the point entirely. Multiculturalism is a fact of life in Canada, a philosophy that in principle gives us a framework for multiple cultures coexisting within the same country. Where I agree that religion can be a vital aspect of any given culture, the right to express that religion (any religion) is not absolute in all social settings. There are places and times where it is not appropriate.

To be in favor of a no religious expression policy in public schools, does not in any way infringe upon the philosophy of multiculturalism, as long as all religions are treated the same.

No, I think I got your point just fine: "there are times when it [muticulturalism] is not appropriate." You're arguing against allowing full multiculturalism in public schools. This doesn't mean you're not allowed to argue this - if you don't think multiculturalism is a good thing, that's your own business - but it is what you're arguing for amounts to.

And the fact that religious expression isn't an absolute right in all circumstances doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a good reason if we're going to limit it. This is a key principle of a free society: people can do as they please until a compelling reason for not letting them is given. I can see a compelling reason for banning a shirt that's dusruptive and disrespectful to other students. I can't see a compelling reason to have a blanket ban on turbans, kippahs and crucifixes.

If you have a compelling reason to do this, please share.