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Subjective/Objective reallity

james bond

Well-Known Member
What is the difference you are making between a subjective truth and a fabrication of truth?

In this example, segev and I are just assuming the facts. Neither of us know the truth. Thus, the evidence convinces us the next group of astronauts we send up will find and bring back green cheese. If we were in on some grand plan to fool everyone else, then there would have be some communication between us. And that would be the evidence needed to show that the moon isn't made of green cheese. Mostly, what we have is the subjective truth. In order to have the objective truth, then we need a higher viewpoint.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I gotta say, based on the OP I'm really not clear on what you mean by "subjective" and "objective," Segev. This here (Subjective/Objective reallity) sounds like a really wonky way of looking at those two terms and not at all the usage I am accustomed to. It sounds like you are using "objective" as another word for what you view as "fact" and "subjective" as a word for what you view as "fantasy made up nonsense." :sweat:
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Transcending the duality of subjective objective reality means the mind is apprehending reality without thought, it is a meditative state.
Isn't a meditative the opposite of without thought?
For example, a mind that is sequentially or simultaneously considering an object seen through the eyes as being external
Can you explain that? You mean imagining i see my self from the outside? or having no physical boundary so i can see 360 degrees?
and what is felt about that same object seen through the eyes as being internal
Can you elaborate what you mean by "felt"? do you mean as a "feelings" for the object or how i feel it in reality? (5 senses)
that is a mind functioning in the dualistic state.
Can you please also define what your definition of "mind" is?
A mind in transcendence apprehends what is present without judgement, without thought, a non-dual state, a mind in the quiescent state.
It seems you suggest the mind is a separate entity? or separate to our physical body?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
You quired in the last paragraph of your OP as to the more objective the findings, is the subjective diminished as a result.
No i did not.
I Said the need for subjective reality is diminished. these are too different statements.
Subjective reality is part of our brains. I don't think it is going away anytime soon, as it is most vital for our ability to survive.
Bigger than that vital ability, is our ability to understand the subjective as being such, and apply it to the objective reality.


For example:

many years ago, we used subjective reality to explain the sun: a big chunk of coal, a giant light bulb in the skies, a god and many other subjective realities.
They had a need for this subjective reality to explain the objective one.

But today, we have a very different way of examining whether a reality is subjective or objective.
Today we have no need for a subjective reality for the sun, or the moon (although it is nice at times :)).

I don't think that Subjectivity will ever go away.
Humans love subjectivity. they love the ability to imagine what the objective reality could be like.

magicians, psychics, religion, theater, movies, tv-shows, books... you name it. we always love this ability to escape to a subjective reality.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
No i did not.
I Said the need for subjective reality is diminished. these are too different statements.
Subjective reality is part of our brains. I don't think it is going away anytime soon, as it is most vital for our ability to survive.
Bigger than that vital ability, is our ability to understand the subjective as being such, and apply it to the objective reality.


For example:

many years ago, we used subjective reality to explain the sun: a big chunk of coal, a giant light bulb in the skies, a god and many other subjective realities.
They had a need for this subjective reality to explain the objective one.

But today, we have a very different way of examining whether a reality is subjective or objective.
Today we have no need for a subjective reality for the sun, or the moon (although it is nice at times :)).

I don't think that Subjectivity will ever go away.
Humans love subjectivity. they love the ability to imagine what the objective reality could be like.

magicians, psychics, religion, theater, movies, tv-shows, books... you name it. we always love this ability to escape to a subjective reality.
I see. My bad for reading wrong.

I still think the subjective will largely play a major role in the sciences. Like the study of effects and influences matter produces which effect other forms of matter.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Objective reality is only understood individually through our subjective realities.
Of course, that is why we learn more and more how to improve our ability to distinguish between our own subjective reality to the objective reality.

That's why scientists don't count eye witness as an objective evidence. we know for a fact that our interpretation of reality can easily be false.
That's why when you want to make a scientific theory, it is not enough to say: because i know, or because million of people saw it.
That's why you can't just make any claim you want without having an objective way of proving it, unlike some non-scientific theories, that offer a non-objective realities.

Would you say for example if someone claims the sun will burnout it 10 days because angels told him so, and someone will claim it appears we have billions of years (and provide the long explanation), would you say they are both in the same level of understanding the objective reality?
How our minds interpret the world is 100% through the subjective filters we use, regardless if those are shared filters with others of our culture.
Indeed.
The more you ignore self-knowledge, and self-awareness, the more blind you are to just how subjective we really are,
What is self-knowledge?

Only when i started to learn about the objective reality, i could understand how my reality so far, has been mostly based on subjective ideas (of my own, and others).

how colorized what we see is by that.
how?
The more self-unaware you are
Can you please explain how can one be self-unaware? ( i assume you mean ignoring how one feels about something?)
the more out of touch you are with reality, which includes the subjective, not excludes it. We are humans, not robots crunching numbers.
Well.. you can never know ;)
What if we are? oooooooh :) :) :)

I Agree with you, that everything we feel is obviously subjective, but not an objective reality :)
So i don't think your argument contradicts the OP.
Can you please elaborate if you think it does?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
What is a natural satellite
Is a natural (formed by natural non artificial way) object that orbits another one. this object can be referred to as a satellite to the other object it orbits.
, if there are billions of moons, are they different,
Yes
are they the same.
No.
What is the difference between a moon and an asteroid circling the planet.
All objects orbiting another planet, are natural satellites. (please note that "moon" does not mean it is a replica of our moon)
I use the word moon instead of typing natural satellite many time :)
But eventually, there is none in the terminology sense. an asteroid orbiting (not circling once) a planet is also considered a moon.
In fact, there is a possibility we have discovered a 2nd (temporary and far far far far far away) moon to our own planet :) (Asteroid 2014 JO25). But i don't know if it has been validated already or not :)

It was assumed to be created by, If you use assume you are not sure, probable is not objective.
Why would you say probably not? based on what do you say that?
Why is the distance approximate
That was because i was too lazy to give the actual numbers:
https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/moon-distance/en/
doesn't sound objective,
Lol. it was mostly approximately objective ;)
I also thought I heard it will eventually spin away from earth.
It will. but it will take many more years, i wouldn't worry about it ;)
When it starts traveling the galaxy is it is no longer earth's moon that wouldn't be objective.
Indeed. Objective realities actually change. amazing huh? :) :) :) ( unlike some realities i have heard of ;) )
What is the earth.
I am not going though this again :)
Can you quantify or prove any of your effects so that they are objective.
Yes. of course.
Go to the beach,
take a long stick and stick it firmly by the edge of the water. (mark the position the water reach)
continue to do so every 10 minutes, for a period of say, 30 days.
You will clearly see the pattern.
Now imagine how accurate you'll get if you measured it every minute?
how much if every second?
And imagine you did it for 20 years...
that is a lot of data. i think it is safe to assume that tides are an objective (repeating) reality.

we can assume what can be achieved with this method of measuring. imagine what can be achieved with that one:
NOAA National Ocean Service Education: Tides and Water Levels


I Recommend a telescope. :)
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
It is simple, Segev. We should act according to the reality that we live in - the subjective.
So if i am very sick, and i believe i am healthy... i should ignore me being sick?
In 'Advaita' Hinduism, it is known as 'Vyavaharika Satya' (Pragmatic reality). You run if a lion attacks, though you and the lion both are not the 'Paramarthika Satya' (Absolute reality).
So if a lion runs at me, all drooling and angry.. i don't really need to run? :)))
Yes, NASA has made bricks out of compacted Martian soil. Just google for it.
Cool. I'll probably will
Yes, there is none.
I can live with that ;)
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Isn't a meditative the opposite of without thought?

Can you explain that? You mean imagining i see my self from the outside? or having no physical boundary so i can see 360 degrees?

Can you elaborate what you mean by "felt"? do you mean as a "feelings" for the object or how i feel it in reality? (5 senses)

Can you please also define what your definition of "mind" is?

It seems you suggest the mind is a separate entity? or separate to our physical body?
No, the purpose of meditation practice, religious or nonreligious, is to calm the mind, and in the serious religious meditative practice such as dhyan, chan, zen, to completely still the mind so it is free from all thought.

It means an object seen through the eye appears to be on the other side of the eye, external to the person doing the seeing. It means it is objectively perceived.

By felt, I mean the emotional and mental feelings and thoughts induced by the sight of the object. It means the subjective experience associated with the seeing of the object.

Mind is the faculty of awareness. To define lower aspects of mind, we just add a moderator such s 'ego' to mean personal mind, the self aware mind.

Obviously the personal mind is an aspect of being incarnate, it is associated with the body, but mind per say just means a state of awareness. What each person understands about mind is dependent upon their present mental development in the context of universal evolution.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Yes. of course.
Go to the beach,
take a long stick and stick it firmly by the edge of the water. (mark the position the water reach)
continue to do so every 10 minutes, for a period of say, 30 days.
You will clearly see the pattern.
Now imagine how accurate you'll get if you measured it every minute?
how much if every second?
And imagine you did it for 20 years...
that is a lot of data. i think it is safe to assume that tides are an objective (repeating) reality.

We always see patterns that is the point, no pattern is 100%. Nothing can be defined 100%. I have a telescope and I use it a few times a year and I still see the moon as subjective.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
So if i am very sick, and i believe i am healthy... i should ignore me being sick?

So if a lion runs at me, all drooling and angry.. i don't really need to run? :)))
I did not touch this point and mentioned only two realities so as not to complicate the isues. However, Advaita accepts a third reality too - 'Pratibhasic Satya' (Mirrored reality). That belongs to people under illusions, hallucinations and people with mental problems. If you are sick and do not accept it, it will be the third kind of reality - 'Pratibhasic Satya' (Mirrored reality). Yes, for such people, their reality is different from ours.

You need to run when faced with a drooling and angry lion, that is the pragmatic truth. However, think that in absolute terms. The lion kills you, eats you, disposes some of you in its morning ablutions, goes on to mate with his lioness, gets old, and is killed by a younger/stronger lion who usurps its harem. That is life, that is 'Ritam', that is Dao. It happens all the time. You or the lion do not mean much to the nature, because neither you nor the lion is the absolute reality (Parmarthika Satya).
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Of course, that is why we learn more and more how to improve our ability to distinguish between our own subjective reality to the objective reality.
The real goal is to understand that we cannot separate them, and that "objective reality" is not so separate from the subjective self that you can claim it is completely "true" in and of itself. You cannot know objective reality "as it is". It always, always have you, your subjective self as part of it that.

Here it is simply put. Objective reality is always a mediated reality, science included. It always has the subjective observer embedded in any and all understandings. You always filter it into your understanding, and are never freed from those filters. It is objective, relatively speaking, not absolutely speaking.

That's why scientists don't count eye witness as an objective evidence. we know for a fact that our interpretation of reality can easily be false.
But let's not forget about consensus reality. That is an "objective" reality because it is a collective framework shared in common by a particular mindset or worldspace. What the collective sees is reality through those collective filters, and that becomes objective truth to those within that collective.

Once you step outside that into another shared worldspace with their own filters, sets of assumptions and languages to describe, or model the world, the world has different truths to them. And those truths are perfectly adequate for them to function, and is their "objective reality" as well. And so it goes, each thinking their consensus reality is "the reality".

That's why when you want to make a scientific theory, it is not enough to say: because i know, or because million of people saw it.
That's why you can't just make any claim you want without having an objective way of proving it, unlike some non-scientific theories, that offer a non-objective realities.
And this is valid, for a scientific worldspace. But there are other very real realities that are both before, and beyond scientific understandings. And each of those also has their own criteria for "objective" truth, even though they differ in nature. Even though a prerational, prescientific mythic reality falls short of a scientific reality, it is not without its own consistent logic proofs. They just are not scientific proofs.

That doesn't make then not perfectly real to those within those worldspaces. Obviously they are, considering as a system it has been perfectly functional, up to the limits of its capacities. Once that limit is reached, then you grown beyond it to the next level, the next higher worldspace, such as the scientific reality. But then, that too has it's limits, and that is the problem presented in your OP.

Would you say for example if someone claims the sun will burnout it 10 days because angels told him so, and someone will claim it appears we have billions of years (and provide the long explanation), would you say they are both in the same level of understanding the objective reality?
I would qualify it to say a scientific reality. Obviously what they are saying is not a scientific reality. But is that reality the only, one true reality, "The Truth", in other words? If you say yes, then you should realize that is exactly the same thinking they have of their reality. How is your truth absolute, when their absolute truth isn't? Are you so sure you actually are truly objective, and not mistaking the relative nature of perception with objective truth? How do you think you can truly bypass these things.

Furthermore, what successes science has, is in fact extraordinarily narrow in the grand scheme of things. There are a whole lot of promissory notes being issued that all Answers can come this way, using those tools. That is "logical positivism" and that belief is sadly weak.

What is self-knowledge?
To realize the relative nature of truth and the limits of our perceptions to hold truth. To know yourself, is to know reality, and that reality is that we are perceivers of truth from multiple perspectives, with not one being absolute. You end up holding life with a far more light, opened hand, rather than trying to put a wrapper around it with a big T Truth emblazoned on it in order to tell yourself you have it figured out.

Only when i started to learn about the objective reality, i could understand how my reality so far, has been mostly based on subjective ideas (of my own, and others).
You are mistaking subjectivity, with mythologies. This is an error on your part. You are the perceiver of all things, filtered through the conditioned filters of your mind programmed into you through culture and language.

Can you please explain how can one be self-unaware? ( i assume you mean ignoring how one feels about something?)
Subjectivity has little to do with emotions. How someone can be self-unaware is simple. They spend their whole lives looking from truth outside themselves. They never introspect. They hope to find the eyes they are looking out through by searching for them out there in the world, in "objective reality" somewhere, never realizing they are looking out through them the whole time. The truth is in you, not "out there".

I Agree with you, that everything we feel is obviously subjective, but not an objective reality :)
Well, that's actually not true either. First of all, everything you think, is subjective reality. It's not just feelings. But, and here's where it gets really fun, if you have a thought about yourself, then you have made a 1st person subjective self, a 3rd person objective reality. :) You can turn subject, the one seeing, into the one seen. So you the seer, are seeing you the seer as the thing seen, which is no longer the subject by an object that the subject sees. In your 3rd person perspective of the 1st person self, it's the 1st person holding a 3rd person perspective of the 1st person - which makes it not a true 1st person experience. It's a 1st person experience of a 3rd person perspective of a 1st person viewed as an object.

So tell me that didn't make your brain melt into a puddle on the floor. :)

Trust me, there is more to reality that what your mind assumes it can find "out there". A whole lot more. There are very clear limits to where the empiric analytic sciences can take you, just like the mythic realities had ceilings on their reality.
 
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dianaiad

Well-Known Member
.... Claimed objectivity can explain atheism... not the other way around.
Atheism is not a POV, its an outcome.

Which fact?

That depends entirely upon the type of atheism being discussed.

Wait. On second thought I don't think you are correct in that statement at all, and here's why:

Atheism runs the gamut between "I've never been taught anything about the idea of deity, and have absolutely no reason to imagine that one exists...what the heck is 'theism?' " to "I absolutely declare and will do something about the idiocy of others who disagree with me on this, that there absolutely is no such thing as a deity."

Lots of points in between those two approaches.

I don't see where any of those points can be an 'outcome,' exclusively, at least. They are simply subjective reactions to cultural information. (or, since I'm a frank and very outspoken THEIST, call that 'subjective reactions to objective truths).

Indeed, none of the evidence used to support or 'not support' theism can be seen as a fact. Opinions ABOUT facts, sure, but the facts themselves?

Not so much.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
No, the purpose of meditation practice, religious or nonreligious, is to calm the mind, and in the serious religious meditative practice such as dhyan, chan, zen, to completely still the mind so it is free from all thought.
I Believe there are several techniques to mediate.
I actually practice mediation quite a bit ( i can assume it is different then your technique though ;) )

So if you mediate in order to quite your "mind", doesn't it make it passive? can't understand the comparison. can you please elaborate a bit more?
It means an object seen through the eye
lets say i look at a chair.
appears to be on the other side of the eye, external to the person doing the seeing.
Obviously, the chair seems to be external to me.. it is.
It means it is objectively perceived.
I Disagree.
It is objectively there, and it is objectively in its physical form. but it can subjectively be perceived as a table for example.
By felt, I mean the emotional and mental feelings and thoughts induced by the sight of the object.
Ok.
It means the subjective experience associated with the seeing of the object.
It is indeed subjective. i agree.


Mind is the faculty of awareness. To define lower aspects of mind, we just add a moderator such s 'ego' to mean personal mind, the self aware mind.
Self aware as being aware that you are you?
Do you think that is something that is unique to humans?
Obviously the personal mind is an aspect of being incarnate, it is associated with the body, but mind per say just means a state of awareness.
Which is a word we use to describe we are aware of things. how is that being something incarnated?
What each person understands about mind is dependent upon their present mental development in the context of universal evolution.
Thanks for the explanations.
But i can't see how it relates to the OP?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
We always see patterns that is the point, no pattern is 100%. Nothing can be defined 100%. I have a telescope and I use it a few times a year and I still see the moon as subjective.
Maybe you are looking at the wrong moon ;)
I can't understand what it means "patterns are not 100%" ?
Ok... lets try a more earthly example.

You have a fire and ice.
would you say that ice is objectively colder than the fire? or is it subjective to your pov?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
I did not touch this point and mentioned only two realities so as not to complicate the isues. However, Advaita accepts a third reality too - 'Pratibhasic Satya' (Mirrored reality). That belongs to people under illusions, hallucinations and people with mental problems. If you are sick and do not accept it, it will be the third kind of reality - 'Pratibhasic Satya' (Mirrored reality). Yes, for such people, their reality is different from ours.
Thats exactly what i mean when i say subjective reality.
they have their own understanding of reality... yet we know that it is not objectively true, no?
You need to run when faced with a drooling and angry lion, that is the pragmatic truth.
Agreed :) :) :)
However, think that in absolute terms. The lion kills you, eats you, disposes some of you in its morning ablutions, goes on to mate with his lioness, gets old, and is killed by a younger/stronger lion who usurps its harem.
ok
[/QUOTE]
That is life, that is 'Ritam', that is Dao. It happens all the time. You or the lion do not mean much to the nature, because neither you nor the lion is the absolute reality (Parmarthika Satya).[/QUOTE]
I Can't understand what you mean by absolute reality...
can you please explain it?
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
That depends entirely upon the type of atheism being discussed.
Mostly critical thinkers (or similar) atheists.
Those who think they can prove god doesn't exists, are on the same "side" of those who think they can.
(as both are not basing their reality on actual evidence or reason (this is my own p.o.v of course and it got nothing to do with the fact i am an atheist. i became an atheist because i adopted this p.o.v)
Wait. On second thought I don't think you are correct in that statement at all, and here's why:

Atheism runs the gamut between "I've never been taught anything about the idea of deity, and have absolutely no reason to imagine that one exists...what the heck is 'theism?' " to "I absolutely declare and will do something about the idiocy of others who disagree with me on this, that there absolutely is no such thing as a deity."
See above.
And can you give an example of someone who acted in the name of atheism or theism?
As i see it, you are considered an atheist or theist based on your world view, not the other way around.
(unless you consider a minority that are psychotic in their way of thinking).
Lots of points in between those two approaches.
What do you mean by points?
I don't see where any of those points can be an 'outcome,' exclusively, at least.
Example?
They are simply subjective reactions to cultural information. (or, since I'm a frank and very outspoken THEIST, call that 'subjective reactions to objective truths).
There is only one objective truth. (lol.. "there can be only one")
Indeed, none of the evidence used to support or 'not support' theism can be seen as a fact. Opinions ABOUT facts, sure, but the facts themselves? Not so much.
Introducing opinion :)
Objective reality is not biased to opinions, thoughts, hopes, beliefs, imagination etc.
Unless you believe that our entire existence only exists because we believe it exists... (which falls on the same "category" of other great speculations that cannot be falsified)
 
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