Suffering

[SeekingAllTruth]

I like the exchange in the Princess Bride:

Be very careful what people try to sell you to get rid of the pain.

 

[SalixIncendium]

...because we lack understanding of our purpose.

"We?"

 

[sayak83]

In another thread, it was suggested that suffering is a result of past sins. While I have no concept of "sin" in my worldview, I see suffering as a result of attachment and desire.

In your view, from where does suffering come?

Suffering results from the general disconnect between what beings actually are and what we mistakenly think ourselves to be.

 

[Nakosis]

What if these were taken away from you?

Of course, there would be initial sadness but I would focus on the time we had. I've come to accept the impermanence of life. Nothing lasts.

 

[Peter Griffin]

"We?"

"We" would be anyone that suffers.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...., it was suggested that suffering is a result of past sins. While I have no concept of "sin" in my worldview, I see suffering as a result of attachment and desire. In your view, from where does suffering come?

I like how you say ' attachment and desire ', but whose ______________
Adam's wife Eve 'desired' fruit from another's tree, a forbidden tree.
Adam's 'attachment' to Eve led Adam to follow her lead.
So, right there I find the beginning of ' suffering ' from wrong desires and attachment.

Plus, the man Job was challenged: 'Touch one's flesh...' (loose physical health) and he would not serve God.
No desire or No attachment on the part of Job, but proving that under adverse (suffering) conditions a person can remain faithful to God.

So, suffering does come from wrong desires, wrong attachments, and the challenge that under bad conditions a person would Not serve God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

..................... I've come to accept the impermanence of life. Nothing lasts.

True, I agree that nothing lasts, 'at least now under this system we now live under' . Everything is now temporary.
There is No hope in this world's systems.
The hope to me is the Bible's Resurrection Hope which means that future life can become permanent, last forever.- Acts 24:15
The hope also to me is that there is a coming new system to live under, a righteous system that will start with living people on Earth.
I think that righteous new system is Not that far off, and there are those of us alive today that could live to see that system come.

 

[Trailblazer]

Most mistakes or indiscretions that I'm aware of are a product of desire or attachment. Can you think of any that are not?

People make mistakes all the time as the result of ignorance. For example, when I first became a landlord I rented to tenants I never should have rented to, and later realized that was a mistake, but I learned my lesson, so I won't make that same mistake again. However, I might make another kind of mistake, because all humans are fallible thus prone to making mistakes.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Avoidance in and of itself is an desire. There is no need to avoid or pursue.

This strategy that Buddhism promotes is only so effective because it is fundamentally at odds with existence and reality.

Existence is like a land grab between the self and a bully over quality of life. Refusing to either acknowledge or compete against the bully simply means that you are conceding what you should be competing for.

We can’t opt out of this game. We can deceive ourselves into believing that we can for a time, but the reality check is ALWAYS coming. And if we then try to deny the reality checks, then the future reality checks will be harsher and more frequent to the point of becoming undeniable. In my experience.

 

[SalixIncendium]

This strategy that Buddhism promotes is only so effective because it is fundamentally at odds with existence and reality.

Existence is like a land grab between the self and a bully over quality of life. Refusing to either acknowledge or compete against the bully simply means that you are conceding what you should be competing for.

We can’t opt out of this game. We can deceive ourselves into believing that we can for a time, but the reality check is ALWAYS coming. And if we then try to deny the reality checks, then the future reality checks will be harsher and more frequent to the point of becoming undeniable. In my experience.

Then it would appear that you have no experience of “we.” You have only experience of you.

If you choose to accept this view, then that’s for you.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

If you choose to accept this view, then that’s for you.

Chosen only reluctantly, after exhausting all of the more appealing perspectives.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The theodicy issue was one of the chief reasons I had to give up Christianity. The level of suffering in this world is so great it erases any notions there is a merciful God at work to help us. My contention is that God couldn't care less about us. It was when I reached this point after opening my eyes and witnessing unmeasurable suffering everywhere I looked that I finally had to give up praying, realizing that I was only talking to empty space; that there was no one there to hear me. Ditching Christianity followed shortly afterward and now I realize that pain and suffering is just a sad reality to this sad life--innocent children who have to suffer the most horrible abuse, along with horrible suffering because of disease, famine, natural disasters and starvation; animals who have to suffer gruesome deaths so that other animals can live. I had to ask myself how a god who claims to be merciful in the Bible could permit this level of suffering? But he does and the natural default to cope with such monstrous realizations is to just say he doesn't exist and if he does he simply doesn't care.

 

[Trailblazer]

The theodicy issue was one of the chief reasons I had to give up Christianity. The level of suffering in this world is so great it erases any notions there is a merciful God at work to help us. My contention is that God couldn't care less about us. It was when I reached this point after opening my eyes and witnessing unmeasurable suffering everywhere I looked that I finally had to give up praying, realizing that I was only talking to empty space; that there was no one there to hear me. Ditching Christianity followed shortly afterward and now I realize that pain and suffering is just a sad reality to this sad life--innocent children who have to suffer the most horrible abuse, along with horrible suffering because of disease, famine, natural disasters and starvation; animals who have to suffer gruesome deaths so that other animals can live. I had to ask myself how a god who claims to be merciful in the Bible could permit this level of suffering? But he does and the natural default to cope with such monstrous realizations is to just say he doesn't exist and if he does he simply doesn't care.

I hear you, you are coming in loud and clear regarding the alleged merciful and loving Abrahamic God, but some Buddhists and Hindus believe we don't have to suffer if we are detached and have no desires. which to me is very naive, and what about children and animals? Nice try but no cigar.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I hear you, you are coming in loud and clear regarding the alleged merciful and loving Abrahamic God, but some Buddhists and Hindus believe we don't have to suffer if we are detached and have no desires. which to me is very naive, and what about children and animals? Nice try but no cigar.

And had you asked respectfully without the blatantly condescending tag line, I might have taken the time to explain, “what about children and animals.”

 

[Trailblazer]

And had you asked respectfully without the blatantly condescending tag line, I might have taken the time to explain, “what about children and animals.”

With all due respect, I wasn't "asking" you anything, I was responding to what SeekingAllTruth posted.

 

[SalixIncendium]

With all due respect, I wasn't "asking" you anything, I was responding to what SeekingAllTruth posted.

Clearly, I was thrown off by the question mark as a result of my naïveté.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I hear you, you are coming in loud and clear regarding the alleged merciful and loving Abrahamic God, but some Buddhists and Hindus believe we don't have to suffer if we are detached and have no desires. which to me is very naive, and what about children and animals? Nice try but no cigar.

I agree. The horrors visited on innocent children are to numerous and too horrifying to mention. And the worse thing one can do is to actually see it in the documentaries and headlines and not be able to do a thing about it. What's left except to push it out of one's mind lest they go insane wondering how an uncaring unfeeling god can tolerate it. It's an outrage that we have more compassion in our pinkie than god has in his entire being.

 

[Trailblazer]

Clearly, I was thrown off by the question mark as a result of my naïveté.

Or as the result of my long convoluted sentence.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree. The horrors visited on innocent children are to numerous and too horrifying to mention. And the worse thing one can do is to actually see it in the documentaries and headlines and not be able to do a thing about it. What's left except to push it out of one's mind lest they go insane wondering how an uncaring unfeeling god can tolerate it. It's an outrage that we have more compassion in our pinkie than god has in his entire being.

I certainly understand how you feel, but I do not think we can make the leap from point a to point b. I mean we cannot assume that God has no compassion because children and others suffer just because God does not put a stop to it, assuming that God could stop it since God is omnipotent. I think the most we can say is that we do not know why God ever made a world like this in the first place, knowing that people and animals would suffer, and giving man free will so he could cause even more suffering than is already inherent in the material world. If we can find some kind of purpose to all this suffering, a reason for it, then it becomes somewhat understandable. Much of the suffering is a test given by God to make us stronger and to see if we will still have faith, and I have almost failed that test many times.

I do not believe we will ever know the full reason why there is so much suffering in this world until after we die and enter the World of Lights.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I certainly understand how you feel, but I do not think we can make the leap from point a to point b. I mean we cannot assume that God has no compassion because children and others suffer just because God does not put a stop to it, assuming that God could stop it since God is omnipotent. I think the most we can say is that we do not know why God ever made a world like this in the first place, knowing that people and animals would suffer, and giving man free will so he could cause even more suffering than is already inherent in the material world. If we can find some kind of purpose to all this suffering, a reason for it, then it becomes somewhat understandable. Much of the suffering is a test given by God to make us stronger and to see if we will still have faith, and I have almost failed that test many times.

I do not believe we will ever know the full reason why there is so much suffering in this world until after we die and enter the World of Lights.

Perhaps. It's not possible to judge a god. It IS possible to have no respect for one, though and I'm afraid I fall into that category.