Suffering

[Trailblazer]

You don't stub your toe "accidentally". You didn't pay attention.
I won't say that all pain or suffering is self inflicted but much more is than we are willing to admit. I believe we have agency in our life and often we are able to prevent, mitigate or end suffering. Failing to do so is due to laziness or stupidity.

I think that a person can stub their toe even if they were paying attention, but that is not the point I want to make. The point is that accidents do happen and they are not only due to laziness, stupidity. For example, I was riding to work one morning on my bicycle and I was on the sidewalk where I always ride (it is legal here) and someone had left a shopping cart smack dab in the middle of the sidewalk and I ran into it and fell down and got hurt badly. Obviously it was wrong for them to have left that shopping cart there on the opposite side of the street where Walmart is located, and maybe I should have been more careful, but I was in a hurry to get to work...

I think we can mitigate suffering by being more careful, but I do not think we can prevent all suffering by doing so and I certainly do not think we can end suffering. The proof is that a careful driver can get hurt by a careless driver and we have no control over other people. About 15 years ago while riding my bike to work on the shoulder of the road I got hit from behind by a car going 55 MPH. Luckily I was not hurt that badly, but I could have been killed or more seriously injured had I not fallen where I did as I did, so it was just luck of the draw, fate.

 

[Trailblazer]

Perhaps. It's not possible to judge a god. It IS possible to have no respect for one, though and I'm afraid I fall into that category.

Been there, done that, and I still go back there at times. As I told you on another thread, I ride the fence pretty well.

 

[firedragon]

In another thread, it was suggested that suffering is a result of past sins. While I have no concept of "sin" in my worldview, I see suffering as a result of attachment and desire.

In your view, from where does suffering come?

OK. You are defining personal suffering. Or is it psychological suffering? I dont know how to word it.

Well. You are right, it could be attachment and desire. Thats a different type of suffering.

But there is also suffering from what you have done in your past. Some may interpret it as "sin's.

Macbeth.

 

[SalixIncendium]

OK. You are defining personal suffering. Or is it psychological suffering? I dont know how to word it.

Well. You are right, it could be attachment and desire. Thats a different type of suffering.

But there is also suffering from what you have done in your past. Some may interpret it as "sin's.

Macbeth.

But wasn’t what was done in the past that is causing suffering now a product of attachment and/or desire?

 

[firedragon]

But wasn’t what was done in the past that is causing suffering now a product of attachment and/or desire?

Now this is an exchange of ideas and I am sure you know that.

I think its the flip side, it is absolutely due to attachment and desire that this so called "sin" was committed, and suffering was a cause of that sin that was committed. The root cause may absolutely be attachment and desire like you said. But committing this so called "sin" in the past is one of the biggest causes of suffering that you are speaking of in the OP. Thats why I gave you Macbeth as a novel example, literally.

Nevertheless, that does not mean simple desire and attachment does not give you suffering. They do.

So both sin and attachment are relevant.

I hope you understand.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Avoidance in and of itself is an desire. There is no need to avoid or pursue.

While I have no spouse, I have wonderful relationships with my child and friends, primarily because I recognize the divinity in them rather than attaching myself to the baggage of their own desires and attachments.

Where attachment is good is empathy/sympathy. Biblically, one of my key roles for example, is to fulfill my spouse's desires and help her.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

In another thread, it was suggested that suffering is a result of past sins. While I have no concept of "sin" in my worldview, I see suffering as a result of attachment and desire.

In your view, from where does suffering come?

There is also physical suffering - not caused by attachment or desire. Afflicts animals as much as humans.

 

[firedragon]

Where attachment is good is empathy/sympathy. Biblically, one of my key roles for example, is to fulfill my spouse's desires and help her.

Which verse are you referring to?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Which verse are you referring to?

For examples, Genesis -- spouses are help mates. Or in the NT, Bible verses about fidelity, marital pleasure, and the verses that say that all Christians are to submit to one another.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

In another thread, it was suggested that suffering is a result of past sins. While I have no concept of "sin" in my worldview, I see suffering as a result of attachment and desire.

In your view, from where does suffering come?

To be philosophical about it..... I'ld say suffering is a necessary and inevitable condition for well-being / hapiness to exist.

In about the same way that "darkness" is a necessary and inevitable condition for "light".
Or "cold" to "hot".

So imo, to ask the question where suffering comes from is like asking where well-being or happiness comes from. They are 2 sides of the same coin and you can't have one without the other.

There's no such thing as "happy" if there is no "misery" to offset it from.

So we can suffer, because we can be happy.

Next to that, physical suffering, in the sense of pain, is a survival mechanism. It alerts us of danger.

 

[firedragon]

For examples, Genesis -- spouses are help mates. Or in the NT, Bible verses about fidelity, marital pleasure, and the verses that say that all Christians are to submit to one another.

I wish to know which verse you are referring to specifically by saying "Biblically, one of my key roles for example, is to fulfill my spouse's desires and help her."

 

[thomas t]

I agree with your view too @SalixIncendium sin is just a abrahamic word for what you called attachment and desire

so if you make it a general rule as to where suffering comes from by default... it becomes blame shifting in the case of crime.

If a victim suffers because of crime, it's because of the crime. There is no reason to suggest anything else for this case.
@TagliatelliMonster explained it very well Evidence for a Creator God Who Likes Creating Things.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

sin is just a abrahamic word for what you called attachment and desire

so... attachment and desire are bad things in your view?

 

[Trailblazer]

so... attachment and desire are bad things in your view?

Imo, it all depends upon what we are attached to and what we desire.

 

[Spirit of Light]

so if you make it a general rule as to where suffering comes from by default... it becomes blame shifting in the case of crime.

If a victim suffers because of crime, it's because of the crime. There is no reason to suggest anything else for this case.
@TagliatelliMonster explained it very well Evidence for a Creator God Who Likes Creating Things.

Suffering comes from past wrongdoing in my understanding, same as buddhism call karma

 

[Spirit of Light]

so... attachment and desire are bad things in your view?

Yes

 

[Martin]

There is also physical suffering - not caused by attachment or desire. Afflicts animals as much as humans.

Yes, bodily pain is inevitable. The discussion is then around mental suffering - what causes it, and can it be reduced, or even eradicated?

 

[capumetu]

In another thread, it was suggested that suffering is a result of past sins. While I have no concept of "sin" in my worldview, I see suffering as a result of attachment and desire.

In your view, from where does suffering come?

Inherited sin Rom 5:12. Adam's request to be his own god Gen 3:5

 

[thomas t]

I see suffering as a result of attachment and desire.

to me this comes adross as pointing to one's own attachment and desire...
However, if you put it in general terms, it becomes victim blaming when crime is involved, very much in the way Muslims blame victims or even Buddhists do, if @Conscious thoughts has it right.

If you suffer because someone else makes you suffer, the last thing you want to hear is "you yourself are to be blamed for it".
In times of suffering that is inflicted by others, people have a lot lot of work to do in processing what has happened.
Snide remars such as "you yourself are to be blamed for it" worsen everything, in my view.
People that already suffer, suffer twice because of these "very wise" remarks issued by their enivronment....

But maybe I got you wrong.

At any rate, Jesus set an example of suffering without being guilty, that's my view of the Bible story.

 

[thomas t]

Inherited sin Rom 5:12. Adam's request to be his own god Gen 3:5

Actually, Romans 5:12 does not address the issue of suffering. Instead, it talks about death.
Two different subjects.

Actually, Gen 3:5 does not indicate that Adam wanted to be his own God. It is a quote from Satan and it is before Adam even ate the fruit.
In case you meant Genesis 3:6?... even in there, it is only written that Adam ate the fruit. The motive you ascribe to this is your speculation, I think.