Suicide

[zombieharlot]

I disagree. I've seen several professionals and they were all utterly useless. My family were instrumental, and were instrumental in the case of everyone I know who's beaten this sort of thing. Most pro's in this area will even say that too. Family is CRITICAL to create hope.

No, that's not what Agape is. You do it because you love other person and you want to see them happy. Your own feelings and needs shouldn't factor in, or it's not agape or selflessness. What your talking about is Feaux-selflessness. Sure there often is some emotional payback for agape, but you don't do those things for people expecting a payoff.


/goes to bed.

Sorry guys it's late.

Well, maybe "agape" is also called that because there is a huge freaking hole in it! Kidding aside, I personally don't see that it exists. People don't do things unless they get some sort of self-gratification out of it. You would feel better knowing that your friend didn't commit suicide. Therefor, you try and help them.

 

[ChrisP]

Kidding aside, I personally don't see that it exists. People don't do things unless they get some sort of self-gratification out of it.

Ok I was going to go straight to bed until I saw this. I respect there are a shugarload of people out there with this point of view, that life is a giant pleasuredome and it should all be about immediate gratification, particulary in the under 30 age group, but I think as we all grow and grow older, that will change. At least I hope so. I see no evidence among my elders to prove it will.

Among a lot of people with children though, I can see Agape self-evident and perhaps it's only something most people understand once they have progeny. There are some who "get it" well before then, but believe you me it's out there.

 

[zombieharlot]

I respect there are a shugarload of people out there with this point of view, that life is a giant pleasuredome and it should all be about immediate gratification

Is there such a thing as eventual gratification?

Among a lot of people with children though, I can see Agape self-evident and perhaps it's only something most people understand once they have progeny. There are some who "get it" well before then, but believe you me it's out there.

I am sure that many of those without progeny don't believe "Agape" I'm simply saying that every action is selfish. If you don't kill yourself because in life you will find yourself happy knowing that your children are happy you're still around (read it again. It makes sense), that is selfish. If you kill yourself to rid yourself of the pain of being alive, that is selfish as well. Selfishness can be found in EVERY action. So, regarding others in a sense of community is also selfish.

 

[Fluffy]

As for your last post I don't think we're talking about the same thing, I see what you're saying but I could never agree to letting someone ending their life without trying to help. I've tried several times, but haven't tried again in the last three years, because of understanding that came to me.

You must be careful not to generalise from your own personal experiences. This is a mistake I made with this very issue.

No, that's not what Agape is.

Agape is not attainable. If you want to be selfless then you are doing so to fulfill that need (ie the want). It may appear that you are doing it for other reasons but, if you take away that want, you would not longer be selfless and therefore it must be considered the critical factor.

My family were instrumental, and were instrumental in the case of everyone I know who's beaten this sort of thing. Most pro's in this area will even say that too. Family is CRITICAL to create hope.

A significant cause of mental problems is a dysfunctional family. Both of us appear to be lucky in this area (I had an incredibly supportive family as well) but in ever other case, this is not so. Nobody is trained to be parents and these sorts of problems can get much worse if handled badly. Furthermore, they are often confrontational and violent problems meaning that the parents are more likely to handle it badly. For example, for all my parents support, there were still times when they were at the end of the tether and came out with things like "Why don't you just go and kill yourself then, see if I care!" For many people, this sort of response is not an isolated incident but continuous.

I would argue they do, and it is a choice we make. I know what you're saying, it's a state of mind I can understand and appreciate. There's so much more to people though, you can show yourself the way if you lift up your gaze. You'll never know where you're going staring at the ground.

But depression predisposes people to stare at the ground. What you are saying is true, as soon as they start lifting their gaze, the beneficial response is usually exponential. However, the kind of choice these people have is even more invisible than if they had a gun to their head. They do not have this kind of clarity because their problem prevents them from having that kind of clarity.

Furthermore, it is very common for people not to want to get better. That is to say that they may say that they do but subconciously they are fighting it every step of the way making that first step nearly unobtainable without outside influence.

There are plenty of cases where our actions hurt other people but we should not be held accountable for those actions. For example, if a person simply does not love their significant other anymore, their only option is end the relationship. This is not their fault despite the fact that their actions cause great suffering. Rationally, this person cannot be held accountable for that suffering.

Furthermore, the need of the friends and family for this person to stay alive is selfish. They are fulfilling a need which is what selfishness is all about.

Among a lot of people with children though, I can see Agape self-evident and perhaps it's only something most people understand once they have progeny. There are some who "get it" well before then, but believe you me it's out there.

Surely asking us to believe in something which we do not feel nor detect with our senses whilst there is also a simpler explanation that does not require some mystical factor is analagous with asking us to believe in God?

 

[Melody]

Suicide would never be an option for me because of my faith. I believe that everything that happens to me...good or bad...is for a reason. There is something I (or possibly someone near to me) am supposed to learn.

Leaving faith aside, I do not view it as suicide to be 74 years old and refuse to prolong your life through the use of medication which usually makes you feel miserable. If you choose to let nature take its course, then so be it. My dad is 76 and takes about 23 different medications for his diabetes, arthritis, blood pressure and heart. He looks miserable most days and the meds cause him almost as much pain as not taking the meds.

When you are physically healthy, suicide is selfish. I am so tired of hearing about how someone was in so much pain they needed to end it all. A good majority of these people never sought help, tried medications or tried changing their attitude by getting up and moving and focusing on something else instead of themselves. How many times have we heard or read (when a teen committed suicide), "I had no clue there was a problem."?

As for why should we care whether someone commits suicide....because they are not in a fit frame to decide what is best for them. All they can see is this narrow little world where death is the only option. It rarely is.

 

[zombieharlot]

Suicide would never be an option for me because of my faith. I believe that everything that happens to me...good or bad...is for a reason. There is something I (or possibly someone near to me) am supposed to learn.

Well, perhaps someone can learn something from someone else's suicide.

Leaving faith aside, I do not view it as suicide to be 74 years old and refuse to prolong your life through the use of medication which usually makes you feel miserable. If you choose to let nature take its course, then so be it. My dad is 76 and takes about 23 different medications for his diabetes, arthritis, blood pressure and heart. He looks miserable most days and the meds cause him almost as much pain as not taking the meds.

I agree with you on this.

When you are physically healthy, suicide is selfish. I am so tired of hearing about how someone was in so much pain they needed to end it all. A good majority of these people never sought help, tried medications or tried changing their attitude by getting up and moving and focusing on something else instead of themselves. How many times have we heard or read (when a teen committed suicide), "I had no clue there was a problem."?

Okay, but what makes suicide bad?

As for why should we care whether someone commits suicide....because they are not in a fit frame to decide what is best for them. All they can see is this narrow little world where death is the only option. It rarely is.

So, you're saying that other's should care because it possibly gives the suicidal individual a broader aspect of things? Well, I am simply asking why others should care after the fact.

 

[Fluffy]

As for why should we care whether someone commits suicide....because they are not in a fit frame to decide what is best for them. All they can see is this narrow little world where death is the only option. It rarely is.

Okay but this invalidates responsibility on the part of the person who commits suicide. If they are not in the right mind then they can't be responsible for their own death.

 

[Melody]

Okay but this invalidates responsibility on the part of the person who commits suicide. If they are not in the right mind then they can't be responsible for their own death.

I see it as a catch 22 situation. You can commit suicide if you're in your right mind, but if you want to commit suicide then you aren't in your right mind.

If there is blame to be placed, then it doesn't just belong to the person who committed suicide. My oldest son went through a very rough time in his senior year of high school where he contemplated suicide as the only way to stop the pain. I won't get into it here but it had to do with peer acceptance.....a lot of it having to do with the fact that he was maturing faster than his friends and that his friends had virtually no restrictions on them by their parents while he still did (meaning he wasn't allowed to run with his friends nonstop and at all hours). This made him the outsider for the first time in his life.

If he had committed suicide without talking to anyone, then he would bear part of the blame for not at least trying other options. If we, as parents, had missed the subtle changes in his behavior and talked with him and then got him help then we would bear part of the blame for not knowing our child well enough to see the signs. Our society also bears the blame for the high rate of suicides for the many ways we subtlely tell people that they aren't worth anything if they don't dress or act a certain way, live in the right house, drive the right car, etc.

 

[michel]

Because I care. And that's kinda my point. Why don't you care? Why don't people care about other people so much anymore. We're an apathetic society now, and apathy is a dangerous thing.

As for your last post I don't think we're talking about the same thing, I see what you're saying but I could never agree to letting someone ending their life without trying to help. I've tried several times, but haven't tried again in the last three years, because of understanding that came to me.

Fine, you care, it takes empathy to care; without knowing what any feeling is like, no one can care. I have met a lady who could not go anywhere where there might have been a caterpillar, because, for some reason, she was terrified of them. Many a time, I had to hold her hand to enter a unit where we did group therapy, just because she had to walk under a tree. Everytime, she was shaking like a leaf. I couldn't understand (never would be able to), but I had to accept.

No one around me has ever accepted how I feel, and they never will. No one can help me; I've had so many try, but when it comes down to it, none have managed to make me feel any difference. It isn't because I don't want to change; it is becauise I am unable to.

 

[Melody]

So, you're saying that other's should care because it possibly gives the suicidal individual a broader aspect of things? Well, I am simply asking why others should care after the fact.

Because it might help open their eyes to the people around them...and to their own feelings...and head off these attempts by getting the person (or them) help before they take the most final step.

 

[Fluffy]

If he had committed suicide without talking to anyone, then he would bear part of the blame for not at least trying other options.

But if his depression predisposes him against these other options to such an extent that suicide actually looks like a viable course of action then surely he cannot be held accountable and therefore blame cannot be placed on him?

 

[Melody]

But if his depression predisposes him against these other options to such an extent that suicide actually looks like a viable course of action then surely he cannot be held accountable and therefore blame cannot be placed on him?

I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in the U.S. you can't turn a tv or radio on without an ad about mental health and depression. We are all responsible for our actions...and non-action. I do not believe that someone all of a sudden drops into such a deep depression that there isn't the chance to say "help" to someone. Here in our town we have several free mental health clinics where you can just drop in.

 

[Fluffy]

I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in the U.S. you can't turn a tv or radio on without an ad about mental health and depression. We are all responsible for our actions...and non-action. I do not believe that someone all of a sudden drops into such a deep depression that there isn't the chance to say "help" to someone. Here in our town we have several free mental health clinics where you can just drop in.

Okay so you are suggesting that people who are depressed have the option not to be depressed but for some reason they choose to continue to be depressed (apologies if I understood that incorrectly). What do you believe their motivation for doing so is?

I would say that people who are depressed do not have any hope that they can actually get better! It doesn't seem like a viable option to them and so it does not seem as obvious as it might do to you or me to go and get some help. Afterall, what is the point in going for help when you don't feel there is any hope and furthermore contact with other people has typically made you feel worse in the past.

 

[Bishka]

So what if my attitude is self-destructive? Why should it concern you?

Because your my friend and I care deely about you Alyssa.

 

[Melody]

I would say that people who are depressed do not have any hope that they can actually get better! It doesn't seem like a viable option to them and so it does not seem as obvious as it might do to you or me to go and get some help. Afterall, what is the point in going for help when you don't feel there is any hope and furthermore contact with other people has typically made you feel worse in the past.

Fluffy,
I have been diagnosed with depression. It's just a lack of serotonin in my brain. Quite a number of my extended family have the same problem. Some have even been diagnosed as bipolar. We all recognized that we had a problem. Only some of us did something about it. A few who didn't are still living miserable lives and at least one has committed suicide.

Not even attempting to get help when you know there's a problem is a bit like knowing you're walking across glass in barefeet. You know you're in pain, but refuse to go put on shoes.

Please don't misunderstand me, I've been in the pit of depression enough to know that when you're down low enough, your options seem extremely limited....but knowing you are depressed gives you the option to doing something about it.

When I say someone is to blame, it means they have responsibility....not that I'm finding fault.

 

[Krie]

I think that suicide is not a bad thing. That is their choice to kill themself, if they can not stand strong, then it is pointless to even exist. all they do is press their thoughts on others. If that is what they truely want, no one should stand in their way, free will right?

 

[Fluffy]

Fluffy,
I have been diagnosed with depression. It's just a lack of serotonin in my brain. Quite a number of my extended family have the same problem. Some have even been diagnosed as bipolar. We all recognized that we had a problem. Only some of us did something about it. A few who didn't are still living miserable lives and at least one has committed suicide.

I am truly glad that you did do something about it! That kind of life is one that I would wish on nobody.

Not even attempting to get help when you know there's a problem is a bit like knowing you're walking across glass in barefeet. You know you're in pain, but refuse to go put on shoes.

Analogical arguments are only as strong as the bond between the object and its example. I would argue that the main difference between walking on glass and depression is that when you are walking on glass, you are fully in control of yourself and not predisposed to keep walking on that glass. When you are depressed, you are predisposed to continue being depressed because, as I'm sure you are aware, it does things like sap your energy and hope. Why would somebody who has lost the will to live retain the will to get better?

Please don't misunderstand me, I've been in the pit of depression enough to know that when you're down low enough, your options seem extremely limited....but knowing you are depressed gives you the option to doing something about it.

Yes I have often tried to get people who are depressed to look at it from this point of view. I remember that when I was going through bereavement councilling (and the events that led up to it) that this view never even occured to me. In fact it was not until I felt better that I was capable of looking at it from this way of thinking. It does seem very straightforward to me now that if I had just been more positive I could have gotten myself out of that rut with ease.

However, this says to me that whilst I may look at a depressed person and think "man why can't you pick yourself up like I should have done, it seems so simple and easy!" what seems easy to me now is actually like, as YmirGF put so eloquently, climbing mount everest.

When I say someone is to blame, it means they have responsibility....not that I'm finding fault.

Yes I think I agree with you here and that is an immensely important distinction. The change does have to come from the suicidal or depressed person since no amount of outside influence can help them unless they truly wish to help themselves. They are most certainly responsible.

My concern is the leap that some people have made from this position to blame due to the unreasonable closeness of blame and responsibility.

 

[Bishka]

I know this has been beat to death already, but I wanted to add my little bit in here, mys tory I guess you can say. Oh boy, here goes.


I've had Bipolar my whole life, my it didn't entirely manifest itself until I was 15, and in my sophmore year of high school. I was sitting in health class one day and we were watching a video on suicide. This was really the first time it had been introduced to me in my life. Beforehand, it was just some obscure topic that I didn't really know anything about.

It was around September, I believe, at that time. Soemthing in the video hit me. I thought to myself, "I could kill myself, and no one would care." From that day onward, my downward spiral began. I began thinking of ways that I could 'off' myself. My choice eventually eneded up being overdosing on various medication found around my house.

I didn't know what was wrong with me, I felt unloved, lonley and completley out of it. I spent a lot of time in my bedroom, and would lie to people about how I felt and what I was doing.

I'm not sure why it manifested itself then, it just did.

The closer it got to winter (November), the more I wanted to die. I can't pinpoint a why, and even if I could, it probably woulnd't make much sense.

One day I decided to off myself, I found a perfect opputunity. Obviously, during this 2-3 month sojurn I was not thinking clearly. My choice of day was November 17th/18th. I was spending the night at my friends house. My closest friends were all with me. Only two realy knew about my depression and my sucidal thoughts, but I had kept them at bay for awhile.

I had written the note, collected the pills and was ready to do the deed. I did, I overdosed, but oddly enough, I know God was there, prompting me to stop being an idiot. How so? I can swallow any pill, any size. That night I was having trouble with the smallest of the pills, I was gagging on them.

I ended up with all those friends, the girl's parents taking me to the emergency room that night.

After that breif encounter getting my stomach pumped (which I would NEVER recommend), I was shipped up to the Emergency Medical Nerougical Center at the University of Utah. This was basically a mental hosptial. No metal, no string, no shoes, no pens, No shampoo, etc. I was there for a week, i got out Thanksgiving day. I hated it, and vowed, next time I tried, I'd be dead.

This downward spiral with a few high peaked manics continued for the next month or so until my new therapist decided I was harming myself and others around me and sent me to another mental hospital. This time it was a day treatment program. I was taken out of high school and placed here. Monday through Friday, 8 AM-5 PM. For three months. I learened there, I had therapy there and that's where I was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder.

In the months after I got out (I was there from beginning of January to end of March), I still had suidcial tendecies, self-harming and the like. I hated myself and what I had done. I had so much guilt.

Enough about me I guess....





Yes, sucide is a selfish thing, but you CANNOT expect those in that state of mind to actually understand that they are being selfish. They see it, as I did as being benevolent and doing what they think is best for their families.

They don't understand that it is a selfish act (as I didn't), and obviously can't think straight. You can't convince them are being selfish......it will not work.

I've been on both sides of the fence, my sister tried/wants to constantly, I did, a girl in high school that I knew hung herself on the bleachers.

Unless you've been there and done that, I don't think that you can really understand what is going through our heads.




Okay, enough of me.....:sorry1:

 

[Bishka]

I think that suicide is not a bad thing. That is their choice to kill themself, if they can not stand strong, then it is pointless to even exist. all they do is press their thoughts on others. If that is what they truely want, no one should stand in their way, free will right?

That's a horrible thing to say. If they can't stand strong? how about given them a little help Miss Compassion.

They are not in the right mind at this point and time in their lives....they don't understand what on earth is going on.

Pointless for them to exist? So it's pointless for me to exist, and my younger sister (at age 9 she wanted to die, Age 9!!!)

 

[zombieharlot]

Because it might help open their eyes to the people around them...and to their own feelings...and head off these attempts by getting the person (or them) help before they take the most final step.

I understand that, but what makes it bad after the fact of it already happening?