Superstition vs Faith

[waitasec]

Now try responding to the entire post.

sure...

That's not the same as to say it is unreasonable.
'Now then....Spirit first...or substance first?

Several of you already know where this leads.

well it made perfect sense for those who adhere to the same principle you are advocating to fly into the WTC...was that reasonable?

but to not derail this thread any further ..what is the difference between your faith in god and superstition since you are able to identify the fine line you claim exists between the two

 

[Scuba Pete]

you're not taking into consideration the element of subjective understanding.
a piece of art may mean many different things to different people depending on the lens they are looking through.

Faith transcends mere understanding or comprehension and by a long, long shot. If you see a guy pushing a wheel barrow over Niagra Falls on a tight rope, over and over again you probably would accept that it's possible to do it. Faith requires you getting into the wheel barrow.

i am not upset.

Good to hear it. Your writing style led me to believe that you were.

well if they are synonymous then why use the adverb "merely" as if to suggest faith is something more meaningful then superstition?

Let me clarify. Your issue, as you stated it, was that I used myth instead of superstition. Myth and superstition are synonymous. Faith is a completely different animal. Refer to my first paragraph in this post for further clarification.

if you are having a difficult time qualifying faith to mean something more substantial then faith,

It would seem that most people would have a hard time "qualifying faith to mean something more substantial than faith". Perhaps you were trying to communicate something different here, but faith is faith by definition.

let me ask you this...did science ever claim that there can only be 4 elements..?

It did. It was the genesis of science. There are a TON of theories that science once thought were true but now think otherwise. That's as it should be. Our understanding grows and evolves over time. This is just as true with science as with religion.

it's the why there was a flood that this myth is based on that is problematic

Not for me. Without the weather channel to clue them in, it would have seemed to be the end of the earth for these people. They came up with the best answer they could at the time and then the constant retelling of the story made it morph into something else. Look at all the wars that were blamed on God in the OT. Bush did the very same thing when he invaded Iraq. It's the "God made me do it!" routine. Quite often men will abuse religion (and atheism is not immune) to justify their heinous actions. Did they act on their faith or did they simply take a coward's way out?

really?

Ya rly. Can you tell me how the dinosaurs came to be extinct? There are lots of theories, and one of them may certainly be true. However, the precise reasons are lost to us forever. Cold cases are always harder to solve.

 

[waitasec]

Faith transcends mere understanding or comprehension and by a long, long shot.

If you see a guy pushing a wheel barrow over Niagra Falls on a tight rope, over and over again you probably would accept that it's possible to do it. Faith requires you getting into the wheel barrow.

then it wouldn't be faith anymore

Let me clarify. Your issue, as you stated it, was that I used myth instead of superstition. Myth and superstition are synonymous. Faith is a completely different animal.

interesting, why did you said this?

How do you tell the difference between a myth and faith? You really can't.

It would seem that most people would have a hard time "qualifying faith to mean something more substantial than faith". Perhaps you were trying to communicate something different here, but faith is faith by definition.

that was a typo....i meant to say you were trying to qualifying faith to mean something more substantial then myth...and i'm still waiting for that to be established.

It did. It was the genesis of science. There are a TON of theories that science once thought were true but now think otherwise. That's as it should be. Our understanding grows and evolves over time. This is just as true with science as with religion.

i disagree. science and faith are polar opposites...the scientific method is the antithesis of faith. i do agree that at the beginning of science religious belief may have played a role but they have separated at some point heading to two separate destinations....faith deals with the why of things while science deals with the how of things

Not for me. Without the weather channel to clue them in, it would have seemed to be the end of the earth for these people. They came up with the best answer they could at the time and then the constant retelling of the story made it morph into something else. Look at all the wars that were blamed on God in the OT. Bush did the very same thing when he invaded Iraq. It's the "God made me do it!" routine. Quite often men will abuse religion (and atheism is not immune) to justify their heinous actions. Did they act on their faith or did they simply take a coward's way out?

so the point/moral of the flood story is?

Ya rly. Can you tell me how the dinosaurs came to be extinct? There are lots of theories, and one of them may certainly be true. However, the precise reasons are lost to us forever. Cold cases are always harder to solve.

i don't understand your point. viruses and bacteria have always been around they did just show up as soon as we invented the microscope...

 

[Scuba Pete]

then it wouldn't be faith anymore

Sure it would. Not all faith is blind and it's my opinion that most faith is evidenced. By faith, I turn on light switches. I may or may not understand HOW they work, but I certainly know why

interesting, why did you said this?

You can't tell the difference between the two from outside the person's mind. Only the person can tell you why they believe, and even then they may not be able to describe the spiritual with physical terminology. We are spirits in a material world.

that was a typo....i meant to say you were trying to qualifying faith to mean something more substantial then myth...and i'm still waiting for that to be established.

I can't force you to believe anything. Belief in God, just like disbelief in God is highly personal. You either see the Spirit or you don't. If you don't then everyone who does is an idiot to you. That's OK. My existence does not require your approval.

i disagree. science and faith are polar opposites...the scientific method is the antithesis of faith.

Now you're just oversimplifying the issue. Scientists have just as much faith as any priest and maybe even more.

so the point/moral of the flood story is?

Paddle faster 'cuz I hear banjos??? Does there have to be a moral? Is the moral the real moral or is it just the best they could come up with? If you're convinced that everything happens for a reason, then it's fairly simple to conjure up something. People know that there is something more to life, but they often don't know what it is.

i don't understand your point. viruses and bacteria have always been around they did just show up as soon as we invented the microscope...

OK, then tell me: which was the first virus? Which came second? Which one killed off the dinosaurs? There's a host of issues that you can't resolve because of the time that has passed.

 

[waitasec]

Sure it would. Not all faith is blind and it's my opinion that most faith is evidenced. By faith, I turn on light switches. I may or may not understand HOW they work, but I certainly know why

you are redefining the word faith.
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof

Faith - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

You can't tell the difference between the two from outside the person's mind. Only the person can tell you why they believe, and even then they may not be able to describe the spiritual with physical terminology. We are spirits in a material world.

you may be...but in my mind, from the inside, i don't see that at all...

I can't force you to believe anything. Belief in God, just like disbelief in God is highly personal. You either see the Spirit or you don't. If you don't then everyone who does is an idiot to you. That's OK. My existence does not require your approval.

no, you are projecting your fear of what you think people see you as.
i am waiting for someone to explain to me the difference between myth and their faith in god.

Now you're just oversimplifying the issue. Scientists have just as much faith as any priest and maybe even more.

explain the scientific method and tell me how it has anything to do with faith that is:
firm belief in something for which there is no proof

Paddle faster 'cuz I hear banjos??? Does there have to be a moral? Is the moral the real moral or is it just the best they could come up with? If you're convinced that everything happens for a reason, then it's fairly simple to conjure up something. People know that there is something more to life, but they often don't know what it is.

the moral of the story is
man is inclined towards evil more so then it is towards good...

OK, then tell me: which was the first virus? Which came second? Which one killed off the dinosaurs? There's a host of issues that you can't resolve because of the time that has passed.

you're dodging the point. those things did not appear because of microscopes they were there when the bible was written

 

[Curious George]

Now then....Spirit first...or substance first?

define spirit

 

[Thief]

define spirit

That part of you I am talking to.
That part that will respond.

 

[Thief]

sure...


well it made perfect sense for those who adhere to the same principle you are advocating to fly into the WTC...was that reasonable?

but to not derail this thread any further ..what is the difference between your faith in god and superstition since you are able to identify the fine line you claim exists between the two

Here's your sign....from another thread moments ago....


Finally...back to the beginning....

All things at once...immediately in hand.
Which came first? Spirit or substance?

It is essential the ability to say "I AM!"
Rather difficult to say so without an echo...don't you think?

The spin and rotation of all things would be the evidence of God.
At that 'point'...before the expansion...he set things into motion.
Without the snap of His fingers, the singularity would have expanded as a simple explosion...an empty shell of energy...ever increasing.

Cognitive ability....an ego...thought and feeling....
God was First.
Someone had to be first.

And alone.

Splitting spirit produces an exact image. You end up talking to yourself.
You might have a lot to talk about...but it is only an echo that replies.

So the answer is then a blend of spirit and chemistry.
A fresh starting point....to be born....to be made....

We are here to learn what ever we learn and then back to God we go.
We get to keep our thoughts and feelings.
We get to suffer ourselves...and others.
We move to the consequence of what we are.

Denial is futile.

Billions of copies of a device that can only produce unique spirit....
and the result is different on each occasion.
That you ARE different could be your saving grace....or your damnation.
It revolves around your choices...and history.
(end quote)

 

[Scuba Pete]

you are redefining the word faith.
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof

Dicto simpliciter, or an over simplification of the issue. Here are ALL the dictionary listed definitions of faith from Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com

faith   [feyth]
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

Only ONE of these definitions suggests that there is no evidence and that's what we would call "blind faith". Your entire premise has been built on blind faith, so when someone comes along discussing evidenced faith, you get all flummoxed and claim that they are changing the definition. Just because you are narrow minded doesn't mean we all have to be.

BTW, the sentence used to demonstrate blind faith (#2) is pretty ironic, doncha think? It's about a scientist using faith and blind faith at that. :yes: :yes: :yes:

i am waiting for someone to explain to me the difference between myth and their faith in god.

I've done that already. It seems you have already made your mind up on this and will not accept any description that does not rest within your narrow minded definition. You're like the guy who argues with the sign post only to take the wrong way home.

explain the scientific method and tell me how it has anything to do with faith that is:
firm belief in something for which there is no proof

That's such small part of faith. Few people actually use blind faith. Oh, it's out there, but it's pretty insignificant.

the moral of the story is
man is inclined towards evil more so then it is towards good...

If that works for you, then so be it. I do not need to glean a moral from everything I read. I certainly don't feed my prejudices when I read something. Au contraire, I work at expanding my perceptions as well as my understanding about what they were thinking and why. What was going through their minds on the tenth day of rain? The twentieth? They weren't used to monsoons at all so the terror must have been building.

you're dodging the point. those things did not appear because of microscopes they were there when the bible was written

Ah, you can't answer that question, so now it's "not the point". It was precisely my point and you're just now getting it. Good job, but do try to keep up. I'm trying to make this as easy for you as I can.

Faith is not a four letter word. It's OK to use faith. In fact, without it, you would not be living your life as you know it. Do you have faith that your car will start? If you didn't, you wouldn't even try the key. Do you have faith that your brakes will work? Yeppers and think of the moment of shock and despair you would feel if they ever failed! Faith transcends your prejudiced notion that it has to be blind. In the great chapter on faith in Hebrews 11 it tells us...

Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. NIV

Take a moment to read Hebrews 11 and you'll see that faith causes action and comes from trust: not blindness. Yes, it's far deeper than any myth or superstition and comes from within.

 

[waitasec]

Dicto simpliciter, or an over simplification of the issue. Here are ALL the dictionary listed definitions of faith from Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com

faith   [feyth]
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.


Only ONE of these definitions suggests that there is no evidence and that's what we would call "blind faith". Your entire premise has been built on blind faith, so when someone comes along discussing evidenced faith, you get all flummoxed and claim that they are changing the definition. Just because you are narrow minded doesn't mean we all have to be.

no these are not ALL the definitions. if you scroll down just a teenie bit more you will find these other definitions starting with this...

1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence

and if you scroll a little more you will find this...

Bible Dictionary
Faith definition

Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true (Phil. 1:27; 2 Thess. 2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests. Faith is the result of teaching (Rom. 10:14-17). Knowledge is an essential element in all faith, and is sometimes spoken of as an equivalent to faith (John 10:38; 1 John 2:3). Yet the two are distinguished in this respect, that faith includes in it assent, which is an act of the will in addition to the act of the understanding...

Faith | Define Faith at Dictionary.com
nice try...so again how does faith, as in the faith that relies on trust...which is not contingent on evidence is based on evidence. sure the evidence of trust is there but what one trust, there is no evidence for hence the word...trust or hope...or as in hebrews 11:1 says
11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.



so i'm a little confused with your position...
are you arguing against this definition of faith or not?

BTW, the sentence used to demonstrate blind faith (#2) is pretty ironic, doncha think? It's about a scientist using faith and blind faith at that.

:spit:
boy you are desperate aren't you
He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
once the hypothesis becomes fact...there is no faith it is evidence.
so your silly argument failed big time.

I've done that already.

no sorry you haven't.

It seems you have already made your mind up on this and will not accept any description that does not rest within your narrow minded definition. You're like the guy who argues with the sign post only to take the wrong way home.

this is what happens when one substantiates a hypothesis as fact

That's such small part of faith. Few people actually use blind faith. Oh, it's out there, but it's pretty insignificant.

flying into the WTC was pretty significant if you ask me.

Ah, you can't answer that question, so now it's "not the point". It was precisely my point and you're just now getting it. Good job, but do try to keep up. I'm trying to make this as easy for you as I can.

what are you suggesting...? that viruses and bacteria never existed until sin came into the world? :areyoucra
i hope not.

Faith is not a four letter word. It's OK to use faith. In fact, without it, you would not be living your life as you know it. Do you have faith that your car will start? If you didn't, you wouldn't even try the key. Do you have faith that your brakes will work? Yeppers and think of the moment of shock and despair you would feel if they ever failed! Faith transcends your prejudiced notion that it has to be blind. In the great chapter on faith in Hebrews 11 it tells us...

i agree faith isn't a four letter word in most cases. it is when by faith one uses their faith to justify their bigotry biases and infringes the rights of others based on ones religious faith. if that never occurred in the past then we wouldn't be having this discussion. period.



scuba pete had faith that his hypothesis would be substantiated by fact....

 

[Thief]

no these are not ALL the definitions. if you scroll down just a teenie bit more you will find these other definitions starting with this...

1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence

and if you scroll a little more you will find this...

Bible Dictionary
Faith definition

Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true (Phil. 1:27; 2 Thess. 2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests. Faith is the result of teaching (Rom. 10:14-17). Knowledge is an essential element in all faith, and is sometimes spoken of as an equivalent to faith (John 10:38; 1 John 2:3). Yet the two are distinguished in this respect, that faith includes in it assent, which is an act of the will in addition to the act of the understanding...

Faith | Define Faith at Dictionary.com
nice try...so again how does faith, as in the faith that relies on trust...which is not contingent on evidence is based on evidence. sure the evidence of trust is there but what one trust, there is no evidence for hence the word...trust or hope...or as in hebrews 11:1 says
11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.



so i'm a little confused with your position...
are you arguing against this definition of faith or not?




:spit:
boy you are desperate aren't you
He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
once the hypothesis becomes fact...there is no faith it is evidence.
so your silly argument failed big time.


no sorry you haven't.


this is what happens when one substantiates a hypothesis as fact


flying into the WTC was pretty significant if you ask me.



what are you suggesting...? that viruses and bacteria never existed until sin came into the world? :areyoucra
i hope not.


i agree faith isn't a four letter word in most cases. it is when by faith one uses their faith to justify their bigotry biases and infringes the rights of others based on ones religious faith. if that never occurred in the past then we wouldn't be having this discussion. period.



scuba pete had faith that his hypothesis would be substantiated by fact....

And you are still holding faith, that faith is false.
You can't prove a faith to be false...but you need it to be.

Faith in an afterlife bears consequence.
Naysayers....so it seems....don't do well in the next life...
having made so much denial.

Some people of faith are extreme.
But judgment as a blanket, for all manner of faith...is false.

 

[Scuba Pete]

no these are not ALL the definitions. if you scroll down just a teenie bit more you will find these other definitions starting with this...

I actually read the entire page before I posted it. You seem hell bent on cherry picking YOUR pet definition and castigating me for using a different one. Mine fits in the definition of faith.

it is when by faith one uses their faith to justify their bigotry biases and infringes the rights of others based on ones religious faith. if that never occurred in the past then we wouldn't be having this discussion. period.

Just as bad is the bigotry towards those of faith. That you would condemn the one and support the other speaks volumes about you as a person.

I've got nothing to worry about and I am anything but "desperate". I have given you a different perspective and you've done what most people who do not want to be confused by the facts have done: resort to red herrings. This confirms my suspicion that all you really wanted to do was to troll theists so you could bash them. Shame on you. Maybe one day you'll open your mind and dispense with all of your prejudices and preconceived notions.

 

[waitasec]

I actually read the entire page before I posted it. You seem hell bent on cherry picking YOUR pet definition and castigating me for using a different one. Mine fits in the definition of faith.

:spit:
you are the one who is cherry picking...why didn't you include the other definitions, hmmmmmm?

Just as bad is the bigotry towards those of faith. That you would condemn the one and support the other speaks volumes about you as a person.

watch it now, you are making personal comments about me...
RF rules
1. Off-topic personal comments about Members and Staff
Personal attacks are strictly prohibited either on the forums
:tsk:

I've got nothing to worry about and I am anything but "desperate". I have given you a different perspective and you've done what most people who do not want to be confused by the facts have done: resort to red herrings. This confirms my suspicion that all you really wanted to do was to troll theists so you could bash them. Shame on you. Maybe one day you'll open your mind and dispense with all of your prejudices and preconceived notions.

well then you failed to explain. next.

 

[waitasec]

And you are still holding faith, that faith is false.

faith isn't false...and neither is superstition...


next.

 

[Thief]

faith isn't false...and neither is superstition...


next.

That was quite a leap.
Superstition is not false?
Are you sure you want to hold that statement as true?

 

[Scuba Pete]

:spit:
you are the one who is cherry picking...why didn't you include the other definitions, hmmmmmm?

Wow. You're the one who contends that my definition is false and not the converse. I accept the entire panoply of definitions concerning faith. You, want to render all faith as being blind and not evidenced. You are the one cherry picking.

watch it now, you are making personal comments about me...

Rly? You call that an attack? This is like the pot calling the kettle black.

well then you failed to explain. next.

No, my explanation was not faulty: your understanding is lacking. Just because you don't understand a concept or a process does not make it any less true.

 

[waitasec]

That was quite a leap.
Superstition is not false?
Are you sure you want to hold that statement as true?

and neither is faith.
does superstition exist? yes. does faith exist? yes. therefore my statement is fact. superstition and faith is a real state of mind...
now what is the difference again?

 

[McBell]

That was quite a leap.
Superstition is not false?
Are you sure you want to hold that statement as true?

if faith isn't false, how can superstition be?
I mean, come on, neither requires proof....

 

[waitasec]

Wow. You're the one who contends that my definition is false and not the converse. I accept the entire panoply of definitions concerning faith. You, want to render all faith as being blind and not evidenced. You are the one cherry picking.

not at all.
if you understand what my definition of faith is with regards to my argument, why are you attempting to refute it?

Rly? You call that an attack? This is like the pot calling the kettle black.

when did i call you a bigot?

No, my explanation was not faulty: your understanding is lacking. Just because you don't understand a concept or a process does not make it any less true.

no, it is you that doesn't understand the concept of my argument...

hebrews 11:1 plainly states the faith i am talking about, now if you have a problem with hebrews 11:1 then i'm not sure what your point is.

 

[Scuba Pete]

not at all.
if you understand what my definition of faith is with regards to my argument, why are you attempting to refute it?

Refute it? I accept it as a small part of the entirely of faith. A very small part.

when did i call you a bigot?

I didn't. Re-read the post carefully this time.

no, it is you that doesn't understand the concept of my argument...

Of course I do. It's the fallacy of special pleading. If x is a subset of y, then not all of y must be x. In this case, x (blind faith) is quite uncommon.

hebrews 11:1 plainly states the faith i am talking about, now if you have a problem with hebrews 11:1 then i'm not sure what your point is.

Hebrews 1 isn't referencing blind faith, it's referencing revealed faith and there's a huge difference.

Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. NIV

How did they "see" the things promised? That's the difference between physical and spiritual sight. God has revealed himself to me and I'm way OK with that.