Suppose evolution was refuted, then what?

[nnmartin]

^ how about start a new one?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Science has one overwhelming advantage over most religions when it comes to explaining things; science seeks to determine the answer while most religions claim they already have the answer.

For this reason when some part of science is refuted and consequently implodes science can move on quite steadily by re-examining that part of science and coming up with some explanation of what happened and why, they can then use this explanation to examine science as a whole and if it holds up under scrutiny, they can keep marching on. The 'truth' of science is constantly changing to attempt to reflect what we understand of reality. Perhaps their approach is right.

Most religions on the other hand have their 'truth' written down, when some part is refuted they face a significantly larger challenge and must instead attempt to either fit reality to their 'truth' by distorting their perception of things and/or they must attempt to alter their understanding of that 'truth' which may involve twisting the words or to claim that the words are allegorical or some other thing. The 'truth' of most religions remain the same, but the people involved must attempt to twist their perception of it to fit with what they understand of reality (or else to discount reality where it does not conform to that truth). Perhaps their approach is right.

Perhaps neither approach is right

 

[riley2112]

And here again we see a prime example of you telling flat out lies in order to attack your strawman.

kinda off topic here, but how did you get that bug on your post ,,??

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Its cool isn't it, and every time I see it I partially raise my hand to wipe the darn thing off my screen x.x lol

 

[nnmartin]

The bug is Mestemia's Higher Power I think.

 

[outhouse]

kinda off topic here, but how did you get that bug on your post ,,??

LOL it disappears after a year or so LOL

 

[DarkSun]

Its cool isn't it, and every time I see it I partially raise my hand to wipe the darn thing off my screen x.x lol

The bug is Mestemia's Higher Power I think.

I like how he put it on the far right of the screen, away from what you're actually reading. That way it's guaranteed to be in your peripheral vision, and you don't look at it closely. So you think it's an actual bug. But it's not. Mestemia, you cunning fox.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Right. And how did that stuff in a different state get there?

No Christian Question Ladders, sorry

Instead, focus exclusively on the fact that I am right. And all the implications of it.

 

[rusra02]

If time began along with the universe, then there was no "time" when it didn't exist.


So some form of energy has always existed. How does one infer that there was any intelligence or agency behind it?

Undirected, unintelligent energy is destructive. The universe is a marvel of precise laws, and reveals brilliant design. Fred Hoyle wrote in The Intelligent Universe,p.89
"A component has evidently been missing from cosmological studies. The origin of the Universe, like the solution to the Rubik cube, requires an intelligence." No doubt...
Astronomer George Greenstein says: "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency--or, rather, Agency--must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon
scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being?" (Quote from g12/9 pp.6,7)

​

​

 

[camanintx]

Undirected, unintelligent energy is destructive.

Unintelligent natural laws are sufficient to create order and complexity from undirected, unintelligent energy. How is any intelligence required?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Unintelligent natural laws are sufficient to create order and complexity from undirected, unintelligent energy. How is any intelligence required?

How is any intelligence required?
What's stopping the sun from devouring the earth?
What's keeping all the planets in orbit?

Don't tell me gravity, or the solar system is the way it is to promote life, without reason .. because that is the same as not answering the question!
The reason why we have scientific progress is because intelligent people ask "why?"
It's also interesting to note, that the major institutions of education have evolved from faith in God .. even though you will probably claim that mankind has become more civilised despite religion..

Oh .. and what exactly IS 'unintelligent energy'?
It's only intelligent when mankind harnesses it to make a bomb, is it?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

How is any intelligence required?
What's stopping the sun from devouring the earth?
What's keeping all the planets in orbit?

If you don't know the answers to these basic questions, you probably don't want to be speculating on any deeper questions about the nature of the universe.

 

[Orias]

If evolution was refuted I would probably poop in my hand and throw it at someone.

If I'm not a monkey then I must just be doing it for fun

 

[camanintx]

How is any intelligence required?
What's stopping the sun from devouring the earth?
What's keeping all the planets in orbit?

Well it's certainly not Intelligent Falling.

Don't tell me gravity, or the solar system is the way it is to promote life, without reason .. because that is the same as not answering the question!
The reason why we have scientific progress is because intelligent people ask "why?"
It's also interesting to note, that the major institutions of education have evolved from faith in God .. even though you will probably claim that mankind has become more civilised despite religion..

Reasons are things invented by humans to help us make sense of the world around us. To assume that the universe itself requires a reason is simple anthropomorphism.

Oh .. and what exactly IS 'unintelligent energy'?
It's only intelligent when mankind harnesses it to make a bomb, is it?

In my opinion, all energy is unintelligent, but you may want to ask rusra02 since he introduced the term.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Reasons are things invented by humans to help us make sense of the world around us..

I quite agree .. atoms, electrons, molecules .. they help us to visualise 'how it all works' .. but doesn't explain why or how they got there. Some people might not be concerned as to why we are here, or a 'higher meaning' to life .. only when we aren't happy or fulfilled, we might seek for answers..
I imagine that's why it's difficult for rich people to get to heaven, because they are too busy enjoying 'the life of this world', and the more we have, the more we want.

 

[cottage]

How is any intelligence required?
What's stopping the sun from devouring the earth?
What's keeping all the planets in orbit?

Don't tell me gravity, or the solar system is the way it is to promote life, without reason .. because that is the same as not answering the question!
The reason why we have scientific progress is because intelligent people ask "why?"
It's also interesting to note, that the major institutions of education have evolved from faith in God .. even though you will probably claim that mankind has become more civilised despite religion..

'Why' is a perfectly fair question. It is perfectly fair to ask why a thing is the way it is, the entirely reasonable presumption being that every thing has a reason or purpose for its existence or being. But on that account all things must be answerable to the argument from sufficient reason. If the world was created then why was it created? And, creation implying a creator, what is the purpose of the Creator; what is his/its reason for being?

Oh .. and what exactly IS 'unintelligent energy'?
It's only intelligent when mankind harnesses it to make a bomb, is it?

Intelligence is a human feature and if energy is not human then it is not intelligent. So yes, mankind harnessing energy to make a bomb is by definition an example of 'intelligence'.

 

[muhammad_isa]

'Why' is a perfectly fair question.

Thankyou

But on that account all things must be answerable to the argument from sufficient reason. If the world was created then why was it created? And, creation implying a creator, what is the purpose of the Creator; what is his/its reason for being?

Yes .. they are also very good questions..
Clearly, you don't think that you have a good answer to them, as yet ..

And clearly .. I'm satisfied that there is "One" superor to me, that I trust implicitly!
I have reams & reams of evidence of varying types, but don't expect to have ALL the answers .. but enough to have a sure faith!

eg. I haven't got a full CV of Almighty God, nor would I expect to have one! :sleep:

 

[tarasan]

I have participated in a number of threads on creation and evolution. One thing that I have noticed is that antievolutionists, such as rusra02, have argued that there is no evidence for evolution. So I want to ask rusra02 something: suppose evolution was completely refuted. Suppose it was totally refuted and you got what you wanted. Suppose that everyone on this forum, including myself, finally was forced to conclude that evolution was not true due to the sheer weight of scientific evidence against it. Let's suppose that the case was so overwhelming as to make it impossible to deny that evolution was false.

Then what? What would Rusra02 like to see happen? Seriously. Even if it would never likely happen, what would Rusra02 like or hope would happen? Convert to creationism? Become Christians? At least declare agnosticism? Suppose that all of this talk about "propaganda" and other such conspiracy-talk was completely true, the facts all true and verifiable, and proven true to the extent that it was impossible to deny. What then?

I personally would eat some cake.

 

[cottage]

Thankyou

Yes .. they are also very good questions..
Clearly, you don't think that you have a good answer to them, as yet ..
Quote:

The quesion that you've yet to answer was: "If the world was created then why was it created? And, creation implying a creator, what is the purpose of the Creator; what is his/its reason for being?"

And clearly .. I'm satisfied that there is "One" superor to me, that I trust implicitly!
I have reams & reams of evidence of varying types, but don't expect to have ALL the answers .. but enough to have a sure faith!
eg. I haven't got a full CV of Almighty God, nor would I expect to have one! Quote:

With respect, you've asked why the features of the world are what they are and you said to another contributor: "Don't tell me gravity, or the solar system is the way it is to promote life, without reason .. because that is the same as not answering the question!" My question to you is for what purpose was the world created (if indeed it was created) and what is the Creator's reason for being.

Originally Posted by cottage
'Why' is a perfectly fair question.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..My question to you is for what purpose was the world created (if indeed it was created) and what is the Creator's reason for being.

Hmm .. I notice that you haven't answered my original question, yet you expect me to answer two questions!
Nevertheless, perhaps after I've attempted to answer you, rather than try to criticise, you can answer mine..

You wish me to tell you "how Almighty God ticks" .. I can only surmise that as we are spiritually created "in His image", that we can partially understand .. not fully, as we are bounded by this finite universe.
Basically, this universe was created for God's creatures, mankind being 'the pinnacle of creation'. Our souls (or spiritual essence) belongs to God ( to whom we'll return ) .. so this life is temporary, and a test for us to see how we will behave. He doesn't leave us wandering in the 'dark' and loves our repenting and returning to His guidance, which is of no benefit to God .. only to ourselves .. He loves it when we are successful, and understanding when we fail.

The second question is more philosophical .. I know if I suggest that God doesn't need a reason for existing, you will retort "so why does the universe?" That is neither here-nor-there .. I accept existence as a fact! I do not accept that consciousness and the innermost of our being is purely a biolological machine/system (ie. generated brain-waves) .. that makes a mockery of existence, beauty & morality and so on. Would it be possible to create such a machine? Even a 'dalek' (from Dr. Who) has a 'created being' inside..

The universe is physical, and we have good reason to believe that it is finite
ie. not always existed

to believe that "the spiritual self" is "not real", and that it's an illusion created by our physical brain is not a reasonable belief .. how come we all seem to share a universal 'illusion'?

Now .. what about answering my question?