Suppose evolution was refuted, then what?

[cottage]

Hmm .. I notice that you haven't answered my original question, yet you expect me to answer two questions!
Nevertheless, perhaps after I've attempted to answer you, rather than try to criticise, you can answer mine..

Hmm… Now why is it you think I should be able to answer the question you asked of another poster? I don’t profess to be able to explain the universe or our place in it, but I asked questions of someone who apparently does – you!

You wish me to tell you "how Almighty God ticks" .. I can only surmise that as we are spiritually created "in His image", that we can partially understand .. not fully, as we are bounded by this finite universe.
Basically, this universe was created for God's creatures, mankind being 'the pinnacle of creation'. Our souls (or spiritual essence) belongs to God ( to whom we'll return ) .. so this life is temporary, and a test for us to see how we will behave. He doesn't leave us wandering in the 'dark' and loves our repenting and returning to His guidance, which is of no benefit to God .. only to ourselves .. He loves it when we are successful, and understanding when we fail.

God, the Supreme Being, who is omniscient and by definition wants for nothing, produced inferior creatures in order to see if/how those previous non-existent creatures would repent their God-created inferior ways. Surely you can see that doesn’t make any sense?

The second question is more philosophical .. I know if I suggest that God doesn't need a reason for existing, you will retort "so why does the universe?" That is neither here-nor-there .. I accept existence as a fact! I do not accept that consciousness and the innermost of our being is purely a biolological machine/system (ie. generated brain-waves) .. that makes a mockery of existence, beauty & morality and so on. Would it be possible to create such a machine? Even a 'dalek' (from Dr. Who) has a 'created being' inside..

The universe is physical, and we have good reason to believe that it is finite
ie. not always existed

to believe that "the spiritual self" is "not real", and that it's an illusion created by our physical brain is not a reasonable belief .. how come we all seem to share a universal 'illusion'?

The universe is a contingent fact, but it may be self-existent. But whatever, your argument is that God created the universe; the question I asked wasn’t ‘why does the universe exist’ but specifically for what purpose was it created?It can’t be for our benefit, since we didn’t exist, and it can’t be for the benefit of an all-sufficient being that by definition already has and knows everything.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Hmm… Now why is it you think I should be able to answer the question you asked of another poster? I don’t profess to be able to explain the universe or our place in it, but I asked questions of someone who apparently does – you!

Not a good start..

God, the Supreme Being, who is omniscient and by definition wants for nothing, produced inferior creatures in order to see if/how those previous non-existent creatures would repent their God-created inferior ways.

No .. you make it sound as if God is "a creature" .. He is not .. in fact, He's not really a "He" ..
But as I thought, you only have criticism, no constructive imagination, just destructive!

I asked .. for what purpose was it created?It can’t be for our benefit, since we didn’t exist, and it can’t be for the benefit of an all-sufficient being that by definition already has and knows everything.

It's only an assumption that we "didn't exist" .. we might not have had our physical bodies, but our souls belong to God, and to Him we will return!

 

[gnostic]

Regarding to the OP.

If evolution would ever be refuted, it wouldn't come from creationists and their creationism. It would be refuted by another scientific model in the biological field.

Creationism, like that found in the Bible's Genesis is a creation myth; it is not science, and it is not even remotely "scientific". The Genesis' creation is no more credible than the older Sumerian and Babylonian myths, which the ancient Hebrews clearly borrowed from.

But so far, there are many decades of evidences that support Darwin's natural selection (evolution), and it is still the best theory that explained changes in species and the diversity of species.

The biggest problem for creationists is their own ignorance and refusal to learn and know what evolution is really about, so they keep confusing evolution with abiogenesis. Evolution don't deal with the origin of life, but abiogenesis do.

And no, I wouldn't convert to Christianity, even if evolution was refuted today. Evolution has to do with biology, hence with science. So refuted theory wouldn't make me believe that the 6-day creation or the biblical flood to be real and true as I do now.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Regarding to the OP.

If evolution would ever be refuted, it wouldn't come from creationists and their creationism. It would be refuted by another scientific model in the biological field.

A very bad term .. creationism.

I believe that the universe was created .. in fact, I don't see any other intelligent, sane alternative..
As a person with a 'scientific bent', I look for reasons for why the physical world is the way it is .. and that includes how & why it's the way it is..

The principles of evolution, as in 'natural selection', is taught as elementary biology around the world .. there's not many educated people who dispute it..

So .. it's pure ignorance for people on both sides of the argument, when one resorts to "name calling", such as 'creationists are ***' or 'evolutionists are ***'

 

[cottage]

No .. you make it sound as if God is "a creature" .. He is not .. in fact, He's not really a "He" ..
But as I thought, you only have criticism, no constructive imagination, just destructive!

I have not said or implied that God is a creature (anthropomorphic); the definition of God is that he is incorporeal. I described humans as creatures with inferior ways, and if God is the creator of all existent things then it follows that God created them thus. I then went on to explain how it makes no sense to say the Supreme Being caused the existence of error-prone, contingent creatures, expecting them to repent the ways given to them by their creator.

And why is it you think I should constructively imagine something to be true when it is self-evidently absurd? It is entirely legitimate to make a critical analysis of mystical or religious beliefs.

It's only an assumption that we "didn't exist" .. we might not have had our physical bodies, but our souls belong to God, and to Him we will return!

We didn’t exist before we existed. And whatever it is that ‘we’ are, if ‘God exists’ is true then it is also true that God created us. And the question remains unanswered: for what intelligible reason did God create us?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I then went on to explain how it makes no sense to say the Supreme Being caused the existence of error-prone, contingent creatures, expecting them to repent the ways given to them by their creator.

Clearly not, to you

Error-prone? We're still learning .. we also often do things that aren't good for us .. that is because we have the responsibility of decision-making .. there's good in that as well as bad..

..repentance is for the good of our own souls .. God is not in need of His creatures.

It is entirely legitimate to make a critical analysis of mystical or religious beliefs.

It certainly is..

for what intelligible reason did God create us?

TO LEARN SOMETHING! Unfortunately, some people turn away from truth .. they will not prosper

 

[gnostic]

The principles of evolution, as in 'natural selection', is taught as elementary biology around the world .. there's not many educated people who dispute it..

What do you mean by "educated people"?

There are many educated people, religious and non-religious people, and from both sides there are number who don't accept evolution as science. And those who don't accept it, is because they don't understand it.

But the difference between religious and non-religious people, is that non-religious people don't get into argument with those people who do understand evolution.

It is the religious people (who don't accept evolution, like creationists) who tried to (unsuccessfully) debunk evolution and put creationism in place of evolution. These are anti-evolutionists.

A very bad term .. creationism.

I believe that the universe was created .. in fact, I don't see any other intelligent, sane alternative..
As a person with a 'scientific bent', I look for reasons for why the physical world is the way it is .. and that includes how & why it's the way it is..

And you think god (Yahweh or Allah) created the universe?

If you say "yes", and since you say that you're "scientific bent", then you should know that the hallmark of science is providing evidences to support any claim, hypothesis or theory.

So unless you can provide evidences to support some magical/mystical/supernatural/divine hand created the universe, then such claim is hardly sane or intelligent, let alone "scientific". I think you are still relying on "faith" for your claim, and not science.

 

[camanintx]

I believe that the universe was created .. in fact, I don't see any other intelligent, sane alternative..

Your lack of imagination is not my problem. The universe exists whether you can find a reason for it or not.

 

[cottage]

Clearly not, to you

Error-prone? We're still learning .. we also often do things that aren't good for us .. that is because we have the responsibility of decision-making .. there's good in that as well as bad..

..repentance is for the good of our own souls .. God is not in need of His creatures.

You are missing the whole point, and what you suggest reduces to an absurdity. There is a reason that things aren’t good for us, as you put it, and that is because we are vulnerable creatures living in a hazardous world, which according to you God created. So if things clearly aren’t good for us then how can it be said they are good for us, since as we didn’t exist before we existed it cannot be said that learning or repentance is to our benefit?

TO LEARN SOMETHING!

Unfortunately, some people turn away from truth .. they will not prosper

But once again, if we didn’t exist then how can we benefit from learning anything? (!)

And perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to what this ‘truth’ is?

 

[riley2112]

A very bad term .. creationism.

I believe that the universe was created .. in fact, I don't see any other intelligent, sane alternative..
As a person with a 'scientific bent', I look for reasons for why the physical world is the way it is .. and that includes how & why it's the way it is..

The principles of evolution, as in 'natural selection', is taught as elementary biology around the world .. there's not many educated people who dispute it..

So .. it's pure ignorance for people on both sides of the argument, when one resorts to "name calling", such as 'creationists are ***' or 'evolutionists are ***'

You are completely correct :clap

 

[muhammad_isa]

What do you mean by "educated people"?

So unless you can provide evidences to support some magical/mystical/supernatural/divine hand created the universe, then such claim is hardly sane or intelligent,.

The oldest trick in the book! .. claiming that "unless you produce evidence, you are talking rubbish" ..

What evidence do you want? What evidence do you accept?
I'm satisfied with the evidence that I've gathered in my life .. I make it my business to find out what's around me, what's going on in the world (not just my own local, bigoted view) .. study, seek knowledge .. sincerely seek truth..

Most of us are capable of that .. whatever evidence I produce, a person who doesn't wish to acknowledge truth will deny it .. I'm sorry, but I can NOT "produce God" .. nor would I want to, as it's not necessary to 'see' physical evidence to have an unshakable faith.

We are surrounded by the signs of Almighty God .. the creation itself .. those with sure religious knowledge (not cultural!) .. our innermost beings.

I think you'll find that God will not accept "lack of evidence" as an excuse for disbelief and lewd behaviour :bow:

 

[Photonic]

The oldest trick in the book! .. claiming that "unless you produce evidence, you are talking rubbish" ..

What evidence do you want? What evidence do you accept?
I'm satisfied with the evidence that I've gathered in my life .. I make it my business to find out what's around me, what's going on in the world (not just my own local, bigoted view) .. study, seek knowledge .. sincerely seek truth..

Most of us are capable of that .. whatever evidence I produce, a person who doesn't wish to acknowledge truth will deny it .. I'm sorry, but I can NOT "produce God" .. nor would I want to, as it's not necessary to 'see' physical evidence to have an unshakable faith.

We are surrounded by the signs of Almighty God .. the creation itself .. those with sure religious knowledge (not cultural!) .. our innermost beings.

I think you'll find that God will not accept "lack of evidence" as an excuse for disbelief and lewd behaviour :bow:

I think you will find that "lack of evidence" is reason enough to reject any claim.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think you will find that "lack of evidence" is reason enough to reject any claim.

In a court of law, I agree with you that a lack of evidence leads to dismissal of a trial .. it doesn't mean that a person is not guilty though!

However, Almighty God knows that which is in our hearts/mind .. He is closer to us than our "jugular vein"

People may reject whatever they like, but God knows who is guilty or not-guilty .. it's easy to say "produce evidence" .. there's no force on anybody; if somebody doesn't want to acknowledge what I consider to be "reason" (ie. evidence!)

 

[McBell]

The oldest trick in the book! .. claiming that "unless you produce evidence, you are talking rubbish" ..

Interesting how you are so quick to put words in the mouths of others.
Some would call that dishonest...

What evidence do you want? What evidence do you accept?
I'm satisfied with the evidence that I've gathered in my life .. I make it my business to find out what's around me, what's going on in the world (not just my own local, bigoted view) .. study, seek knowledge .. sincerely seek truth..

Of course you are satisfied.
Its just that some people have higher standards when it comes to "evidence".

The higher your standards, the closer to the truth you get.
At least within reason.

Most of us are capable of that ..

I have to disagree.
For evidence please see any thread in the creation vs evolution sub-forum.

whatever evidence I produce, a person who doesn't wish to acknowledge truth will deny it ..

Interesting trick you attempt here.
Are you claiming to have some kind of truth that no one wants to see?

I'm sorry, but I can NOT "produce God" .. nor would I want to, as it's not necessary to 'see' physical evidence to have an unshakable faith.

Please refer to the point made about higher standards for evidence.

We are surrounded by the signs of Almighty God .. the creation itself .. those with sure religious knowledge (not cultural!) .. our innermost beings.

If this is all it takes for you to ratify your beliefs then by all means, ratify away.

I think you'll find that God will not accept "lack of evidence" as an excuse for disbelief and lewd behaviour :bow:

I think that you will find that your empty threats are pretty worthless towards those not in your choir.

 

[McBell]

In a court of law, I agree with you that a lack of evidence leads to dismissal of a trial .. it doesn't mean that a person is not guilty though!

However, Almighty God knows that which is in our hearts/mind .. He is closer to us than our "jugular vein"

People may reject whatever they like, but God knows who is guilty or not-guilty .. it's easy to say "produce evidence" .. there's no force on anybody; if somebody doesn't want to acknowledge what I consider to be "reason" (ie. evidence!)

It is even easier to not produce evidence.
Of course, since there is a serious lack of empirical evidence for god....

You really like tossing out the empty threats, don't you?

 

[fantome profane]

I think you'll find that God will not accept "lack of evidence" as an excuse for disbelief and lewd behaviour :bow:

Are you trying to equate disbelief with lewd behaviour?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Are you trying to equate disbelief with lewd behaviour?

Not directly .. no!
Interesting statistics about religious ignorance/indifference and under-age unmarried mothers in Europe, though..

 

[Photonic]

In a court of law, I agree with you that a lack of evidence leads to dismissal of a trial .. it doesn't mean that a person is not guilty though!

However, Almighty God knows that which is in our hearts/mind .. He is closer to us than our "jugular vein"

People may reject whatever they like, but God knows who is guilty or not-guilty .. it's easy to say "produce evidence" .. there's no force on anybody; if somebody doesn't want to acknowledge what I consider to be "reason" (ie. evidence!)

You're certainly good at rejecting whatever you like for phantom evidence.

 

[Photonic]

Not directly .. no!
Interesting statistics about religious ignorance/indifference and under-age unmarried mothers in Europe, though..

Interesting statistics about prison inmates and religion.

 

[riley2112]

It is even easier to not produce evidence.
Of course, since there is a serious lack of empirical evidence for god....

You really like tossing out the empty threats, don't you?

I think I have to disagree with you on this one. And here is why.
em·pir·i·cal

   /ɛmˈpɪr

ɪ

kəl/ Show Spelled[em-pir-i-kuh

l]
depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory,
The Bible was written on experience Talk to any believer or any faith and A am pretty sure that they will tell you of their experience or observation of Their God. Or do I just have the wrong word here.