Suppose evolution was refuted, then what?

[Me Myself]

Most likely I facepalm and/or laugh and point at the one doing the refuting.

 

[shawn001]

"complete and overall picture."

Is the universe and life on earth evolved and has been for a very long time and still is evolving.

 

[outhouse]

"complete and overall picture."

Is the universe and life on earth evolved and has been for a very long time and still is evolving.

egg's actly

 

[riley2112]

Its not a matter of proving something doesnt exist. I can personally show how man has created all deities and then show exactly how your god evolved into what you believe.

But i dont get in a debate over attributung mytical powers like creation to a deity I cannot prove exist.

But , are you not now in a debate about how did you put it, Magic sky daddy. And if you have the time, I would love for you to show me how man created all deities if of course you are putting God in that role.:beach:

 

[riley2112]

Ok, then best not waiste your time, the only thing I will accept is reason and evidence and if you have none, then I don't see that your belief is justified, nor should you expect to change my mind. And it's sad that people have such low standards of evidence, that they're willing to accept such extreme claims based on "faith."

I am guessing that you are using my beliefs as evidence of my low standards of evidence.. And I don't feel it is a waste of time exchanging ideas with someone that has given thought to these things. I myself find the information helpful in determining my own beliefs.

 

[outhouse]

But , are you not now in a debate about how did you put it, Magic sky daddy. And if you have the time, I would love for you to show me how man created all deities if of course you are putting God in that role.:beach:

Sure lets look at the hebrew god.

Mesopotamians migrated with their gods and became Israelites and Israelites worshipped these previous deities.

Canaanites migrated a short distance and became Israelites bringing and worshipping their deities.

Egyptians migrated and became Israelites bringing their deities for all to worship.


between 1200 BC and 600 BC 4 main deities were worshipped by Israelites El, Yahweh, Baal and Asherah.

After the fall of Israel around 600 BC hebrews became monothesitic to Yahweh the warrior god. named as a storm god as well.

natural powers attributed and percieved as a deity with not one shred of evidence.



Now do you not discount all the thousands of other deities created so far???

 

[Tristesse]

I am guessing that you are using my beliefs as evidence of my low standards of evidence.. And I don't feel it is a waste of time exchanging ideas with someone that has given thought to these things. I myself find the information helpful in determining my own beliefs.

Well, to be fair, I think most people who believe in a god have fairly good standards of evidence, but they don't apply the same standards when evaluating their god.

 

[outhouse]

Well, to be fair, I think most people who believe in a god have fairly good standards of evidence, but they don't apply the same standards when evaluating their god.

exactly

The standard they hold for their preception of god is very low with no evidence required at all!

For evolution they want us to jump through hoops and they they still try and cram a deity into gaps of their knowledge which at times is rather large

 

[riley2112]

Sure lets look at the hebrew god.

Mesopotamians migrated with their gods and became Israelites and Israelites worshipped these previous deities.

Canaanites migrated a short distance and became Israelites bringing and worshipping their deities.

Egyptians migrated and became Israelites bringing their deities for all to worship.


between 1200 BC and 600 BC 4 main deities were worshipped by Israelites El, Yahweh, Baal and Asherah.

After the fall of Israel around 600 BC hebrews became monothesitic to Yahweh the warrior god. named as a storm god as well.

natural powers attributed and percieved as a deity with not one shred of evidence.



Now do you not discount all the thousands of other deities created so far???

Not sure. I will have to give thought and look upon these things. However I am finding this very interesting. Please continue

 

[riley2112]

Well, to be fair, I think most people who believe in a god have fairly good standards of evidence, but they don't apply the same standards when evaluating their god.

I can see where that is easy to assume. I too had a problem with that when I started believing in God. I have only become a believer in the last few months. I once believed that God was nothing more that a man made way to control people.

 

[Tristesse]

I can see where that is easy to assume. I too had a problem with that when I started believing in God. I have only become a believer in the last few months. I once believed that God was nothing more that a man made way to control people.

Ok, So what made you change your mind? Was it the kind of evidence that would convince someone else?

 

[riley2112]

Sure lets look at the hebrew god.

Mesopotamians migrated with their gods and became Israelites and Israelites worshipped these previous deities.

Canaanites migrated a short distance and became Israelites bringing and worshipping their deities.

Egyptians migrated and became Israelites bringing their deities for all to worship.


between 1200 BC and 600 BC 4 main deities were worshipped by Israelites El, Yahweh, Baal and Asherah.

After the fall of Israel around 600 BC hebrews became monothesitic to Yahweh the warrior god. named as a storm god as well.

natural powers attributed and percieved as a deity with not one shred of evidence.



Now do you not discount all the thousands of other deities created so far???

What separates the religious beliefs of the Hebrews from the belief systems of Egypt or Mesopotamia was clearly their monotheism. The Hebrews regarded God as fully sovereign – He ruled all and was subject to no laws Himself. Unlike Near Eastern gods, Jehovah was not created – God is eternal and the source of all creation in the universe. He created and governed the world and shaped the moral laws that govern humanity. Seem to me that it all goes back to the one God that started it all. Sounds like man just got confused , which as you know can be easy to do. You think I am confused. So I still don't think you are proven your point yet. Or maybe you would like me to lower my standards of evidence even lower. Sorry , a vain attempt at humor.:sorry1:

 

[outhouse]

Not sure. I will have to give thought and look upon these things. However I am finding this very interesting. Please continue

So we take a previous god's to hebrews El and Yawheh. El has roots a thousand years previous to Yahweh which predates hebrews by some 300 years.

We take polytheistic people who evolve their god they way they needed him to be by editing El/Elohim and Yahweh together compiling them around 600 BC, for monotheism.

Then we take this one god and add a son to the equation. Now there are two gods. But AH lets throw in a holy ghost now as well to make it back to polytheism with this new religion. Ah but no!!!! lets redefine these 3 deities into one all powerful deity so we can retain monotheism so we dont go backwards,,,, and teh trinity is official around 400 AD.

Later a man goes into a cave and Muhammad is born

Later a man John Smith see's magical tablets that disappear.



Really the trinity is all we need to prove that man defines a deity.

by defining him you are not only attributing his very being, you are creating him by definition alone.

 

[riley2112]

Ok, So what made you change your mind? Was it the kind of evidence that would convince someone else?

You know, I am asked that a lot , I have given it a lot of thought and I truly could not show you what changed my mind. I am not even sure I could tell you in a way that you would believe me. Hell I have trouble believing myself. You may think I am on this forum to tell every one about MY GREAT GOD. But I am not , I am here to find away not to believe. Sounds stupid, I know .

 

[riley2112]

by defining him you are not only attributing his very being, you are creating him by definition alone.
That is a very well put together statement. I don't agree but I love the way you said it.

 

[outhouse]

What separates the religious beliefs of the Hebrews from the belief systems of Egypt or Mesopotamia was clearly their monotheism.

wrong Hebrews were polytheistic for over 600 years

nothing seperated them other then their own cultural identity


Much of the OT including the creation fable was influenced by previous religions in the area.

the creation fable comes from mesopotamian sources in which the first man was not adam but adamu. These semetic speaking people migrated to Israel bring this fable with them.

 

[outhouse]

by defining him you are not only attributing his very being, you are creating him by definition alone.
That is a very well put together statement. I don't agree but I love the way you said it.

there is no teaching of the trinity by any divine source or man.

the trinity is in effect "man" attributing powers and being to "their" being they choose to worship

 

[Tristesse]

You know, I am asked that a lot , I have given it a lot of thought and I truly could not show you what changed my mind. I am not even sure I could tell you in a way that you would believe me. Hell I have trouble believing myself. You may think I am on this forum to tell every one about MY GREAT GOD. But I am not , I am here to find away not to believe. Sounds stupid, I know .

Ok, well, if you're not sure why you believe, then why believe it at all?

 

[Tristesse]

by defining him you are not only attributing his very being, you are creating him by definition alone.
That is a very well put together statement. I don't agree but I love the way you said it.

Thats absurd. You can not define things into existence.

 

[outhouse]

Thats absurd. You can not define things into existence.

your missing his point completely bud


and yes you cannot define something into existance, but you can under percieved existance, or existance in scripture.