Suppression of Free Speech on Covid

[SkepticThinker]

I didn't say "Everyone else is triggered" quit lying .. and do something other than personal invective .. address the topic rather than hiding out in tree tops .. calling out rude names.

1) Vax not Safe 12.5 in 10,000 Risk of Serious Adverse Effect .. Near death experience ..
2) Vax not efficient --- no significant transmission prevention .. not significant benefit to healthy people.

See that nice summary for you --- now address the topic like a good debater .. show us your skills rather than diving into the gutter.

I've thoroughly addressed the topic and responded to and/or refuted the points you keep repeating. And to your insults.

Now I'm just having fun.

 

[Sargonski]

Oh my! The person that started the name calling is now objecting to it and using name calling in the same post! Irony meter alert!!

I didn't start the name calling .. Crucifying your position is not name calling friend .. as much as it hurts and feels like it .. a condition known as hurtebutt .. .. and nor did I object to the name calling .. other than when not accompanied by anything relevant to discussion ... do you not understand the difference ?

but never mind that .. you still havn't told us if 12.5 per 10,000 people having severe nasto reactions .. life threatening near death experience .. is Safe for your 20 year old son ..

This is the fourth or fifth time you have avoided clarifying your claim friend ? What is this desire to cling to this necessary illusion that Gov't wouldn't lie to you .. and beloved John Hopkins . Now that is what should be causing you pain .. the fact that they did lie .. and continue to lie.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I didn't start the name calling .. Crucifying your position is not name calling friend .. as much as it hurts and feels like it .. a condition known as hurtebutt .. .. and nor did I object to the name calling .. other than when not accompanied by anything relevant to discussion ... do you not understand the difference ?

but never mind that .. you still havn't told us if 12.5 per 10,000 people having severe nasto reactions .. life threatening near death experience .. is Safe for your 20 year old son ..

This is the fourth or fifth time you have avoided clarifying your claim friend ? What is this desire to cling to this necessary illusion that Gov't wouldn't lie to you .. and beloved John Hopkins . Now that is what should be causing you pain .. the fact that they did lie .. and continue to lie.

You do it far too often. And yes, using derogatory nicknames is name calling. It is not crucifying. And you did not come close to that. All that you have shown is that you have a belief that you cannot support.

 

[Sargonski]

Rambling, insulting projection not worthy of a serious response.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Yep, that was easy.

.. It may be easy to run around in circles calling out names and salivating on oneself crying "Wrong Wrong Wrong" .. but that is not much of an argument Brother Skeptic

12.5 per 10,000 jabs .. Serious adverse Reaction .. near death experience .. Is this what you are claiming is Safe ? and remember to support your claim .. as I did you want to run around crying "Wrong" that is fine .. so long as you state the reason why the claim is wrong

You gonna give that Jab to your 21 year old son who has already had covid and has full natural immunity .. far better than anything the Jab might give ... the risk of harm from Ominicron being extremely low to begin with .. knowing his risk of myocharditis is 300 times higher than average.

Whats the chance of your healthy boy ending up in the hospital from Covid .. not much of a Skeptic if you don't know that much now are you .. not much of a Skeptic at all .. feeding at the propaganda trough ... no questions asked .. cause Mother Gov't would never lie to us .. no no.

 

[Sargonski]

All that you have shown is that you have a belief that you cannot support.

Thats a complete lie .. and you know it is a lie .. as my belief is supported by the journal article you posted .. did you forget that I posted the data supporting my claim .. in the post you are responding to.

12.5 per 10,000 Jabs -- Severe Adverse Effect = "near death experience" --- is what I believe ... the Data that you posted .

That is the support for my belief that the has a high risk of harm. for healthy poeple. Do you believe that 12.5 -10,000 is safe for healthy people ? a question you keep avoiding .. because you cannot support your belief har har

Got to admit that was some priceless projection on your part .. got to love the fact that you roasted yourself as well .. Its your article proved you wrong .. now running around doing the silliest of denial dance ... pretending it is me who had position crucified .. when it was you who crucified yourself ... shot your own legs out from asunder.

 

[Unfettered]

It all depends upon whom is censored.
Licensed professionals, eg, doctors, are already subject to this, ie, malpractice laws.
Companies selling products are prohibited from false & unevidenced claims.

I disagree that the hinge is "whom" but "why." And we should be clear about what censorship is. Censorship is the suppression of speech. That is never lawful. Or, at best it is backward "law-enforcement." What is lawful is the proscribing through law of the infringement of rights. So when does someone's speech infringe on another's rights? When the speech defrauds someone of some right. A person is free to make all the un-evidenced claims he wants, and should be free to do so—he must be free to do so—so long as he believes what he is saying. But if he knows that what he says is false and gains some portion of someone else's rights thereby, he has committed a crime. Clearly, if this is true, the burden is great to prove that someone did not believe the thing he claimed, knew that it was false, and defrauded someone of some right thereby.

Censorship is entirely the wrong idea to be looking at, IMO. It is authoritarian thinking.

Gadflies can be dangerous when they frighten
people away from vaccination with bogus info.
They'll injure & kill the ignorant, but this is what
we endure as a cost of free speech.

I understand what you're saying.

I used your pattern of factual claims,
but applied to a different scenario.
It's an excellent analogy because it illustrates the
fallacy of claiming that because some practice
isn't perfect, then it's useless....which is a common
ruse used by anti-vaxers.

I didn't post my comment to contest the utility of a practice, but to challenge the justification of finding fault with persons who don't engage in the practice, or of imposing the practice onto them, on the basis of statistics.

People will do what they want. But they might
run into obstacles out there in the world

True. Some obstacles are placed unjustly. I find fault with those.

, eg, businesses that require masks, employers who
require vaccination.

I believe those are emotionally justified obstacles to place on employees, but not lawfully justified obstacles. They presume guilt rather than innocence.

We in business have rights too. If someone
poses a risk to my customers & workers, I've
the right to deny them service & employment.

I agree that business owners (not businesses) have rights (people have rights, not abstractions). It all falls apart when the employer presumes someone is a risk without cause.

Perhaps you want answers so specific that the
research is hard to find.

No, I want answers that are connected to the claims made during the panic. If folks want to claim that science backs their claims, they must produce scientific results. Science is quantifiable. Maskwearing saves lives? OK. We did it. How many lives did it save? Two weeks will flatten the curve? OK. We did it. Let's look at the curve. Don't have that data? Then you didn't engage in science; you engaged in religion, and used the force of government to impose it.

The word "science" was used to justify all kinds of things for which scientific processes were never employed to substantiate. No scientific data, no science. It's not that complicated. So yes, I want the answers that should have resulted at the end of the massive social experiment we all engaged in. Except, there was no experiment. How do we know? Because there was no tracking; there was no control; there were no results; there was nothing to ask others to replicate. There was no science. What's left then? Religion. Which, when imposed by government, is called "tyranny."

What matters is that
there's research that shows the efficacy of
various mitigation measures, eg, vaccination,
masking, social separation, hand washing.

Efficacy studies do not answer the questions I'm asking. And the questions I'm asking are valid if what is being peddled is labeled as "science."

Instead of seeking out reasons to eschew
protection against disease, tis better to seek
understanding, & then make an informed
decision about what to do.

I would agree with that statement if it were objective. Adding one thing makes it objective:

"Instead of seeking out reasons to eschew claimed protection against disease, tis better to seek understanding, & then make an informed decision about what to do."

IE, don't prejudice my decision with yours; allow me to do exactly what you claim makes for good decisionmaking.

Good society = I will seek understanding and make an informed decision. My decision. Not yours. You do the same.
Bad society = I don't get to seek understanding and make my own informed decision; my decision must be what you say it should be.

 

[Sargonski]

I've thoroughly addressed the topic and responded to and/or refuted the points you keep repeating. And to your insults.

Now I'm just having fun.

Thats just simply not true . you can't even manage to comment on if you think 12.5 per 10,000 Jabs leading to a near death experience is safe.

and saying your position was crucified is not an insult .. just a statement of fact .. you have given no comment on what is a Safe Severe Adverse Reaction Rate .. yet you would Jab your daughter with this highly toxic brew .. purly on the basis of trust in the Gov't. Sorry friend but that is not a skeptical thought process.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thats a complete lie .. and you know it is a lie .. as my belief is supported by the journal article you posted .. did you forget that I posted the data supporting my claim .. in the post you are responding to.

12.5 per 10,000 Jabs -- Severe Adverse Effect = "near death experience" --- is what I believe ... the Data that you posted .

That is the support for my belief that the has a high risk of harm. for healthy poeple. Do you believe that 12.5 -10,000 is safe for healthy people ? a question you keep avoiding .. because you cannot support your belief har har

Got to admit that was some priceless projection on your part .. got to love the fact that you roasted yourself as well .. Its your article proved you wrong .. now running around doing the silliest of denial dance ... pretending it is me who had position crucified .. when it was you who crucified yourself ... shot your own legs out from asunder.

More nonsense. Quote and link your source that shows that "Severe Adverse Effect" is life threatening. All you have is ranting and raving. Your bogus claim that you did not support was off by about a factor of ten and you did not own up to your error.

Come on you can do better.

 

[SkepticThinker]

.. It may be easy to run around in circles calling out names and salivating on oneself crying "Wrong Wrong Wrong" .. but that is not much of an argument Brother Skeptic

12.5 per 10,000 jabs .. Serious adverse Reaction .. near death experience .. Is this what you are claiming is Safe ? and remember to support your claim .. as I did you want to run around crying "Wrong" that is fine .. so long as you state the reason why the claim is wrong

You gonna give that Jab to your 21 year old son who has already had covid and has full natural immunity .. far better than anything the Jab might give ... the risk of harm from Ominicron being extremely low to begin with .. knowing his risk of myocharditis is 300 times higher than average.

Whats the chance of your healthy boy ending up in the hospital from Covid .. not much of a Skeptic if you don't know that much now are you .. not much of a Skeptic at all .. feeding at the propaganda trough ... no questions asked .. cause Mother Gov't would never lie to us .. no no.

I've already responded to your claims. As noted.
That's why you got the post you just did. I'm pretty sure I even pointed out to you that the risk of heart problems FROM HAVING COVID are far greater than the risk from getting "the jab."

I don't know why you're going on about believing the government, or whatever. I go with the science.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Thats just simply not true . you can't even manage to comment on if you think 12.5 per 10,000 Jabs leading to a near death experience is safe.

and saying your position was crucified is not an insult .. just a statement of fact .. you have given no comment on what is a Safe Severe Adverse Reaction Rate .. yet you would Jab your daughter with this highly toxic brew ..

I'm vaccinated.
My 13-year-old niece and my 14-year-old nephew are vaccinated.
My sister is vaccinated.
Yes, I would get it again for all of us.

purly on the basis of trust in the Gov't. Sorry friend but that is not a skeptical thought process.

You're the only one talking about the government here.

 

[Sargonski]

More nonsense. Quote and link your source that shows that "Severe Adverse Effect" is life threatening. All you have is ranting and raving. Your bogus claim that you did not support was off by about a factor of ten and you did not own up to your error.

Come on you can do better.

Already quoted the source .. go back and find .. and don't blame me for your failure to know that the Jab you wish to give your daughter has a very high chance of putting her through a "life threatening" situation .. as Severe Adverse Effect is life threatening .. by definition. another big fail on your part .. and you call me the bogus claimant .. got some logs to pull out of own eye I would say. .

Then you tell another lie about me saying I was off by a factor of 10.

I said 1 in 800 you said 1 in 1250 .. that is not a factor of 10 .. and statisticly zero in statistical context -- and you were told this previously .. so an intentional lie - and not a mistake ..

Now quit telling lies about me .. and tell us what SAE is "Safe" since you are claiming the vax is Safe. instead of avoiding the question on which you crucified yourself.

 

[Sargonski]

I'm vaccinated.
My 13-year-old niece and my 14-year-old nephew are vaccinated.
My sister is vaccinated.
Yes, I would get it again for all of us.

You're the only one talking about the government here.

Of course I am talking about Gov't .. because that is who you believe and put your trust and faith in .. when it comes to Jabbing your relatives with toxic cocktail .. a risk of harm 100 times higher than the Swine Flue Vax .... no skeptical thought put into that decision at all ... blind faith and trust in beloved Fauci and other Goblin Friends.

12.5 per 10,000 Severe Adverse Reaction = "Life threatening" .. massive risk of harm for zero tangible benefit .. how many healthy 13 year old girls showed up at the hospital with Covid .. stayed for many days .. in life threatening condition ?

Maybe go find out before running around Jabbing 14 yr old nephew with highly toxic cocktail .. and Oh .. just to talk science for a moment .. you know what happens when you Jab that niece of yours right ? "Nano particles" You see the Jab is supposed to stay in your arm .. tell those cells to make a certain spike protein .. which generates an immune response.

Except something they didn't want to happen happens .. these nanoparticles go everywhere thoughtout the body .. because they are nano particles .. telling any cell they hook up with to make these spike proteins.

but, that is a problem .. because they are not supposed to be telling liver cells to make these spike proteins .. but these particles don't care and they do. so these liver cells then start making spike proteins .. which caused swelling of the cells .. enough of which is myocharditis. My friends healthy 21 year old son was in the hospital for 3 days on morphine due to the chest pains so bad .. now scarred for life.

If they go into your brain .. and those brain cells start swelling .. Guillian Barr syndrom and other nasty things ..

but hey its a numbers came and the odds are in your favor .. 1 bullet in a 1000 shot revolver .. darn good chance you won't blow your head off .. but that young nefew of yours 300% higher chance than the average .. so talking 1 bullet in a 300 shot revolver. but still a pretty good chance to get by.

But now Jab 3 times a year for 10 years and .. oh .. now we are down to 1 in 10 chance .. and over a lifetime well .. chances are you are going to blow your head off.

Just a little statistics and probability to help you with your decision making process and remember xmas is comming .. Jingle bells . Jingle bells .. Jingle all the way .. oh what fun it is to Jab .. all night and every day Hey !!!

 

[SkepticThinker]

Of course I am talking about Gov't .. because that is who you believe and put your trust and faith in .. when it comes to Jabbing your relatives with toxic cocktail .. a risk of harm 100 times higher than the Swine Flue Vax .... no skeptical thought put into that decision at all ... blind faith and trust in beloved Fauci and other Goblin Friends.

Nope. Your entire premise is wrong.
Also, you don't listen well.

12.5 per 10,000 Severe Adverse Reaction = "Life threatening" .. massive risk of harm for zero tangible benefit .. how many healthy 13 year old girls showed up at the hospital with Covid .. stayed for many days .. in life threatening condition ?

Maybe go find out before running around Jabbing 14 yr old nephew with highly toxic cocktail .. and Oh .. just to talk science for a moment .. you know what happens when you Jab that niece of yours right ? "Nano particles" You see the Jab is supposed to stay in your arm .. tell those cells to make a certain spike protein .. which generates an immune response.

Except something they didn't want to happen happens .. these nanoparticles go everywhere thoughtout the body .. because they are nano particles .. telling any cell they hook up with to make these spike proteins.

but, that is a problem .. because they are not supposed to be telling liver cells to make these spike proteins .. but these particles don't care and they do. so these liver cells then start making spike proteins .. which caused swelling of the cells .. enough of which is myocharditis. My friends healthy 21 year old son was in the hospital for 3 days on morphine due to the chest pains so bad .. now scarred for life.

If they go into your brain .. and those brain cells start swelling .. Guillian Barr syndrom and other nasty things ..

but hey its a numbers came and the odds are in your favor .. 1 bullet in a 1000 shot revolver .. darn good chance you won't blow your head off .. but that young nefew of yours 300% higher chance than the average .. so talking 1 bullet in a 300 shot revolver. but still a pretty good chance to get by.

But now Jab 3 times a year for 10 years and .. oh .. now we are down to 1 in 10 chance .. and over a lifetime well .. chances are you are going to blow your head off.

Just a little statistics and probability to help you with your decision making process and remember xmas is comming .. Jingle bells . Jingle bells .. Jingle all the way .. oh what fun it is to Jab .. all night and every day Hey !!!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I would offer that what matters is allowing people to work out private medical decisions privately with their health-care provider.

It's not private when you can spread it around. This is why it's common for Asians to wear a mask when they are ill.

 

[metis]

It's not private when you can spread it around. This is why it's common for Easterners to wear a mask when they are ill.

And that's really important point, imo, as wearing a mask in a high-spread area helps to protect the wearer but also those who are in contact with him/her. It's just so pathetically bizarre to me that some here who say they're religious don't feel a need to wear a mask or get a vaccine even though they may infect others who could get very sick and possibly die. I don't get it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Clearly you have not figured out what my argument is

It's been a moving target. I entered a discussion about whether employers should have the right to insist on vaccination as a requirement for a job and most of your comments since have been about sexual predation.

You cry out " Your values or not mine" -- clearly not if you think an employer can violate essential liberty on a whim .. via threat of Job loss.

Employees had no such "liberties" to impose themselves in a workplace where they are unwelcome, but employers DID have the liberty of letting the unvaccinated go find work where they were welcome or just stay at home if they preferred.

What is a bigger mental lapse is thinking that you get to pick and choose which liberties the employer gets to violate once precedence is set.

No, the law does that.

Your claim that "sex or lose job" is not Force-Coercion

That must be your claim. I said the opposite. That's coercion and illegal.

"respect for individual liberty" as you have none of that.

No, it's you who doesn't respect the employer's liberty. I repeat: the employer has the liberty to let the unvaccinated go, and the unvaccinated has the liberty to either get a vaccine or find other work. That's what the law allows.

You've let pseudoscience dominate your thinking on vaccines, which caused you to fear the vaccine more than the virus. Bad choice, but you apparently survived it. The Duncans of Kansas weren't as lucky. This family of unsophisticated and uneducated rural Trumpers was decimated by the virus, all unvaxxed. A dozen died of Covid, and several others were quite ill (stroke in one) and required hospitalization:

The Duncan Family of Shawnee, KS vs COVID (this account is jaw-dropping)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And that's really important point, imo, as wearing a mask in a high-spread area helps to protect the wearer but also those who are in contact with him/her. It's just so pathetically bizarre to me that some here who say they're religious don't feel a need to wear a mask or get a vaccine even though they may infect others who could get very sick and possibly die. I don't get it.

The commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself, and self hatred and degredation is a part of some of those cults.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Already quoted the source .. go back and find .. and don't blame me for your failure to know that the Jab you wish to give your daughter has a very high chance of putting her through a "life threatening" situation .. as Severe Adverse Effect is life threatening .. by definition. another big fail on your part .. and you call me the bogus claimant .. got some logs to pull out of own eye I would say. .

Then you tell another lie about me saying I was off by a factor of 10.

I said 1 in 800 you said 1 in 1250 .. that is not a factor of 10 .. and statisticly zero in statistical context -- and you were told this previously .. so an intentional lie - and not a mistake ..

Now quit telling lies about me .. and tell us what SAE is "Safe" since you are claiming the vax is Safe. instead of avoiding the question on which you crucified yourself.

Sorry, but that is a fail on your part. You need to provide sources when required. Plus you need to compare apples to apples. As you know the risk of the disease changes with age. You have even said so but if you insist I could provide stats for that. The severity of reaction is also age dependent. And the sort of reaction will be age dependent. Again, I can provide links. The most common severe event is an allergic reaction. If nothing is done it can be serious. That is why they have people hang around for half an hour after the injection. That is very treatable and though it counts as "severe" due to being prepared for it is practically never life threatening..

But if you want others to do your homework for you you have to agree to abide by the findings. Otherwise why should anyone bother trying to help you?

 

[metis]

The commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself, and self hatred and degredation is a part of some of those cults.

Yep, and in many cases secular politics gets invoked, and that can sometimes "poison the well".

 

[Revoltingest]

What are you talking about .. I gave you a definition .. posted from a Gov't Covid site .. you blind ?

Could be.
I didn't see it in my perusal.

• is life-threatening (an event/reaction in which the patient was at real, rather than hypothetical, risk of death at the time of the event/reaction)

What part of major risk of death did you not understand ? nonsense about not presenting a definition. ??

I don't understand the claim that lacks detail.
For example, how many hospitalizations or deaths resulted?

You're making this way too personal.
Calm down, & just tolerate my questions with civility.

Show me number of healthy people died from Covid -- in any western first world population .. any stat will do should be simple simon .. readily available .. were the Gov't not so desperate to lie to you .. this time via the sin of ommission .. making the info difficult to find. .. but its there .. go hunting friend .. since you clearly have absolutely no clue of your risk of harm from Vax or Covid is .. you could use the research time .. try to pop that "I trust the Gov't" necessary illusion bubble.

and this link showing risk of harm from the Vax has been posted many times .. again this self induced blindness .. in fact person who posted it wasn't me .. but a person arguing your side of the fence LOL .. shot his own legs out .. Serious adverse events of special interest following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination in randomized trials in adults - PubMed

What part of 1 in 1250 did you not understand ? "Combined, the mRNA vaccines were associated with an excess risk of serious adverse events of special interest of 12.5 per 10,000"

Problem reading and understanding ? ... been over this a number of times now .. did you forget .. selective memory loss ? What is the deal.

Now get to work .. tell me the risk of harm the average healthy individual from Omicron .. how many dead per 100,000 ..

You'll find this useful.
Johns Hopkins offers epidemiology courses
& conducts research. Rather than a summary
of a study that doesn't define adverse outcomes
we're better off getting the summary from
reliable experts in the appropriate fields, ie,
public health & epidemiology. The upshot is
that vaccines are far far safer than Covid 19.

COVID-19 Vaccine: What You Need to Know

Now that COVID-19 vaccines are authorized, here are the facts you need now.

www.hopkinsmedicine.org