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Suppression of Free Speech on Covid

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
And that's really important point, imo, as wearing a mask in a high-spread area helps to protect the wearer but also those who are in contact with him/her. It's just so pathetically bizarre to me that some here who say they're religious don't feel a need to wear a mask or get a vaccine even though they may infect others who could get very sick and possibly die. I don't get it. :shrug:
What one believes constitutes his religion. If a person doesn't believe that wearing a mask makes a difference, he's practicing his religion when he doesn't wear one—he's not acting to injure others. On the other hand, if he is forced to wear one because someone else believes it will make a difference, he's now being forced to practice someone else's religion. And that is immoral; that is injurious.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I disagree that the hinge is "whom" but "why." And we should be clear about what censorship is. Censorship is the suppression of speech. That is never lawful.
There are many many cases of unlawful speech....
A pill purveyor claiming that their product
will cure cancer, but has no testing to verify it.
A real estate agent is severely restricted from
making any statements that could cause
discrimination.
An engineer is prohibited from divulging
technical info that's national security.
The list goes on & on.

Censorship happens, & is useful in some circumstances.
Or, at best it is backward "law-enforcement." What is lawful is the proscribing through law of the infringement of rights. So when does someone's speech infringe on another's rights? When the speech defrauds someone of some right. A person is free to make all the un-evidenced claims he wants, and should be free to do so—he must be free to do so—so long as he believes what he is saying. But if he knows that what he says is false and gains some portion of someone else's rights thereby, he has committed a crime. Clearly, if this is true, the burden is great to prove that someone did not believe the thing he claimed, knew that it was false, and defrauded someone of some right thereby.

Censorship is entirely the wrong idea to be looking at, IMO. It is authoritarian thinking.

I understand what you're saying.

I didn't post my comment to contest the utility of a practice, but to challenge the justification of finding fault with persons who don't engage in the practice, or of imposing the practice onto them, on the basis of statistics.

True. Some obstacles are placed unjustly. I find fault with those.

I believe those are emotionally justified obstacles to place on employees, but not lawfully justified obstacles. They presume guilt rather than innocence.

I agree that business owners (not businesses) have rights (people have rights, not abstractions). It all falls apart when the employer presumes someone is a risk without cause.
You don't recognize Covid 19 as a public health
threat, but I & legitimate health care researchers do.
Besides, it's my company, so I set the rules.
No, I want answers that are connected to the claims made during the panic.
I don't have them all.

If folks want to claim that science backs their claims, they must produce scientific results. Science is quantifiable. Maskwearing saves lives? OK. We did it. How many lives did it save? Two weeks will flatten the curve? OK. We did it. Let's look at the curve. Don't have that data? Then you didn't engage in science; you engaged in religion, and used the force of government to impose it.
There's been much research showing the efficacy
of vaccines, mask, social distancing, & hand washing.
I don't know why you can't find it.

The word "science" was used to justify all kinds of things for which scientific processes were never employed to substantiate. No scientific data, no science. It's not that complicated. So yes, I want the answers that should have resulted at the end of the massive social experiment we all engaged in. Except, there was no experiment. How do we know? Because there was no tracking; there was no control; there were no results; there was nothing to ask others to replicate. There was no science. What's left then? Religion. Which, when imposed by government, is called "tyranny."

Efficacy studies do not answer the questions I'm asking. And the questions I'm asking are valid if what is being peddled is labeled as "science."

I would agree with that statement if it were objective. Adding one thing makes it objective:

"Instead of seeking out reasons to eschew claimed protection against disease, tis better to seek understanding, & then make an informed decision about what to do."

IE, don't prejudice my decision with yours; allow me to do exactly what you claim makes for good decisionmaking.

Good society = I will seek understanding and make an informed decision. My decision. Not yours. You do the same.
Bad society = I don't get to seek understanding and make my own informed decision; my decision must be what you say it should be.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What one believes constitutes his religion. If a person doesn't believe that wearing a mask makes a difference, he's practicing his religion when he doesn't wear one—he's not acting to injure others. On the other hand, if he is forced to wear one because someone else believes it will make a difference, he's now being forced to practice someone else's religion. And that is immoral; that is injurious.
Perhaps you should learn the difference between knowledge and belief.
 

McBell

Unbound
What one believes constitutes his religion. If a person doesn't believe that wearing a mask makes a difference, he's practicing his religion when he doesn't wear one—he's not acting to injure others. On the other hand, if he is forced to wear one because someone else believes it will make a difference, he's now being forced to practice someone else's religion. And that is immoral; that is injurious.
Typhoid Mary Really likes this post

The people she killed by spreading the disease, not so much
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
There are many many cases of unlawful speech....
A pill purveyor claiming that their product
will cure cancer, but has no testing to verify it.
A real estate agent is severely restricted from
making any statements that could cause
discrimination.
An engineer is prohibited from divulging
technical info that's national security.
The list goes on & on.
Not all proscriptions of speech are lawful. But I'm not going to get into an argument about which ones. We've each said our piece.
Censorship happens, & is useful in some circumstances.
Agreed. I did not say censorship couldn't be useful. I only addressed whether or not it was lawful.
You don't recognize Covid 19 as a public health
threat, but I & legitimate health care researchers do.
What I don't believe in is the concept of "public health." That's entirely a political contrivance used to infringe the rights of human beings. You have your health and I have mine. Etc. We each out to guard our health according to the dictates of our own judgment. Where someone believes someone else may be causing harm to others, the justice system may be invoked and due processed carried out to resolve the dispute.

Apart from that there is only abuse of the innocent under the banner of "public health."
Besides, it's my company, so I set the rules.
You and I both know that business owners can't simply do whatever they want to or with their employees simply because it's "their business."
I don't have them all.
I know. I don't expect any of us to have them all.
There's been much research showing the efficacy
of vaccines, mask, social distancing, & hand washing.
I don't know why you can't find it.
I've seen it. I've been clear that I'm looking for other information. There is no need to keep going back to the information I already know exists.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
Typhoid Mary Really likes this post

The people she killed by spreading the disease, not so much
LOL, that's not substantive argument, but a witty barb for sure. Gave me a good chuckle. Open the door and you can expect someone to walk through it, right? :laughing:
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What I don't believe in is the concept of "public health." That's entirely a political contrivance used to infringe the rights of human beings.
Dang...and here I thought public health is useful,
eg, discovering that lead in gasoline is a powerful
neurotoxin, rolling out polio vaccines to prevent
death & paralysis of children.
Apart from that there is only abuse of the innocent under the banner of "public health."
Dang again....I'll have to tell Mrs Revolt that her
degree in public health, & work to increase
efficacy of health care is to actually serve Satan.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
You are basically saying that it is immoral for those who practice human sacrifice to be forced to not sacrifice humans.
There is no equivalency there. No human has the right to sacrifice another, so it's fine for those who do so to be held accountable. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say?
 

McBell

Unbound
There is no equivalency there. No human has the right to sacrifice another, so it's fine for those who do so to be held accountable. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say?
Your rights stop where my rights begin, right?
Put the other way, my rights stop where your rights begin, right?
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
Dang...and here I thought public health is useful,
eg, discovering that lead in gasoline is a powerful
neurotoxin, rolling out polio vaccines to prevent
death & paralysis of children.
I don't even know what that means: "Public health is useful" A hammer is useful. A car is useful. Can you define "public health" so that I can understand it as something other than a political concept?
Dang again....I'll have to tell Mrs Revolt that her
degree in public health, & work to increase
efficacy of health care is to actually serve Satan.
I'm at a loss on this one. No idea what we're talking about here.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't even know what that means: "Public health is useful" A hammer is useful. A car is useful. Can you define "public health" so that I can understand it as something other than a political concept?
I'm at a loss on this one. No idea what we're talking about here.

For example, if you receive treatment for something...let's
say cancer, the treatment is based upon studies of many
people receiving different treatments. Statistical analysis
shows which works best for which people at what stage.

Another example is the work of John Snow (not the guy
in Game Of Thrones) using math to determine the source
of a cholera outbreak (a community well). This helped
reduce the epidemic.
 
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Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
Your rights stop where my rights begin, right?
Put the other way, my rights stop where your rights begin, right?
That's the common maxim, yes. I'm inclined to say that it's a little shallow in its utility, but overall it gets the job done. So, yes, I agree that the statement set is accurate.
oasn:
you have acknowledged that there is a line that can be crossed in preventing people from harming others....
Well, no. I have said that due process is required to impose upon the rights of a person suspected of being a real risk to others. I don't know how you lawfully "prevent" someone from harming others, except in the very narrow windows of coming into knowledge of premeditation with intent, or during the actual commission of the harmful act. Outside those situations the law can only be responsive, not preemptive. Theoretical risk is the cost of having rights in a free society. Once you start "preventing" people from doing bad things, everyone is suspect and no one has rights. We've seen enough of this; please, no.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Thank you, but I'm not discussing this with wikipedia.
I posted that because you didn't know what the
field of public health is. That article is a good
summary.
If you believe public health is something other than a political concept, I know you can define it yourself. Of course, you are not required; it was a request.
Read my edited post.
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
I posted that because you didn't know what the
field of public health is. That article is a good
summary.

Read my edited post.
Thank you for editing the post. Understood. I think your follow-up helps pinpoint the salient distinction: "the field of public health" vs "public health" the political concept.

If you were referring earlier to the field of public health...having utility...I agree. Where a particular finding of the field is concerned, I yet do not agree that individuals are obliged to yield, even when others believe doing so is foolish, etc. If you were not asserting that, disregard.

The context of my earlier statement, then, was against the concept of public health as used to compel people to various actions against their judgment.
 

McBell

Unbound
That's the common maxim, yes. I'm inclined to say that it's a little shallow in its utility, but overall it gets the job done. So, yes, I agree that the statement set is accurate.
So then you agree that Typhoid Mary needed to be stopped, right?
Even though she believed she had the right to infect others?

Well, no.
Yes, you in fact did.
When you said "No human has the right to sacrifice another, so it's fine for those who do so to be held accountable."[post#569]

I have said that due process is required to impose upon the rights of a person suspected of being a real risk to others.
What, exactly, do you considered "due process"?
In other words, in your opinion, what would be the proper "due process" in stopping Typhoid Mary from infecting others?

I don't know how you lawfully "prevent" someone from harming others, except in the very narrow windows of coming into knowledge of premeditation with intent, or during the actual commission of the harmful act.
Would you not consider Typhoid Mary's spreading the disease a harmful act?
Or is it perhaps only harmful if she was intentionally spreading it?
If she does not believe she is spreading it, does that exempt her from being stopped from spreading it?

Once you start "preventing" people from doing bad things, everyone is suspect and no one has rights. We've seen enough of this; please, no.
Yet the world is just plump full of attempting to prevent people from doing harmful things.
Are you opposed to all of it?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Thank you for editing the post. Understood. I think your follow-up helps pinpoint the salient distinction: "the field of public health" vs "public health" the political concept.
I suppose that everything can be political.
Calling it that seems of no value.
Addressing specific issues is useful.
If you were referring earlier to the field of public health...having utility...I agree. Where a particular finding of the field is concerned, I yet do not agree that individuals are obliged to yield, even when others believe doing so is foolish, etc. If you were not asserting that, disregard.

The context of my earlier statement, then, was against the concept of public health as used to compel people to various actions against their judgment.
Some people do need to be compelled to
do things they dislike, eg, Typhoid Mary.
......Unless you believe that such people
shouldn't be restricted in any way by
anyone?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
What one believes constitutes his religion. If a person doesn't believe that wearing a mask makes a difference, he's practicing his religion when he doesn't wear one—he's not acting to injure others.
Tough titties. People believe second hand smoke doesn't harm others, but it does. Jim Jones seems to really have believed what he did. Doesn't matter, it was harmful and destroyed families and ruined and ended lives.
On the other hand, if he is forced to wear one because someone else believes it will make a difference, he's now being forced to practice someone else's religion. And that is immoral; that is injurious.
It's not a religion but data that has been gathered from across the world. And, again, tough titties. You don't have the right to make people sick.
Censorship is the suppression of speech. That is never lawful.
Actually you agreed to censor yourself and be censored here as an agreement to use this forum, and that agreement is legal.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This appears to be the simplest source for
mortality data regarding vaccinated &
un-vaccinated people
Excerpted....
covidDeaths_graphic_d2.png


covidDeaths_graphic_d3(2).png
 
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