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Supreme Court has banned abortions

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Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
Show me one. You need to show that a person that had massive brain damage, a brain that had no EEG activity came back from a vegetative state.

Schiavo_catscan.jpg


The brain on the right was Teri's. The one on the left shows a normal brain. The dark areas are liquid. It looks like Teri's brain was all but nonexistent by the time they pulled her feeding tube.

I had to be part of the same sort of decision for my father. He did have a living will, but he had an accident. He did survive, but he had severe brain damage as a result. Since it was violated the family could have decided to insert a feeding tube when he could no longer swallow. But we decided to follow his original wishes and let nature take its course. He did not want to be hooked up to all sorts of life support. It was very sad to see him continually lose abilities over ten years. I supplemented his care at a nursing home and often asked him if he was happy and while he could he usually answered yes. I can understand why Michael Schiavo fought for his wife's right to die. And I can understand why her parents opposed it. From personal experience I can see that Michael was right.
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My father in law was allowed to starve to death. It was a horrible decision made under duress...he likely could have recovered but his wife didn't understand that was a possibility. Some people can't be reasoned with, but if it had been my decision I would have asked them to try and operate.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Wildswanderer said:
My father in law was allowed to starve to death. It was a horrible decision made under duress...he likely could have recovered but his wife didn't understand that was a possibility. Some people can't be reasoned with, but if it had been my decision I would have asked them to try and operate.
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Your case would have been different. My father was on a downhill trend after his accident. His brain was deteriorating and no operation could change that.

I also noted that you did not support the claim that you were supposed to support.
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Wildswanderer said:
Really? Someone who is in special needs care for their whole life is certainly dependent upon somebody else's body continually. And why should that matter anyway? They are still unique humans before being born.
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It would certainly matter to the person whose body it is attached to.
 
W

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
I did. That is why I told you that you got it wrong.
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Guinness World Records – The most premature baby to survive is Curtis Zy-Keith Means (U.S.A.) who was born to Michelle Butler on 5 July 2020 at the University of Alabama at Birmingham Hospital in Alabama, U.S.A. at a gestational age of 21 weeks 1 day or 148 days, making him 132 days premature
 
W

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
They are? How are you going to prove that?
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It's common knowledge.
Over 100,000 human beings are killed in second and third trimester abortions each year, that's nearly 274 babies each day and at least 11 every hour.

And over 70% of those are because the women didn't know they were pregnant, not because of any medical issue.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Wildswanderer said:
Guinness World Records – The most premature baby to survive is Curtis Zy-Keith Means (U.S.A.) who was born to Michelle Butler on 5 July 2020 at the University of Alabama at Birmingham Hospital in Alabama, U.S.A. at a gestational age of 21 weeks 1 day or 148 days, making him 132 days premature
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Go back and look at your claim.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Wildswanderer said:
It's common knowledge.
Over 100,000 human beings are killed in second and third trimester abortions each year, that's nearly 274 babies each day and at least 11 every hour.

And over 70% of those are because the women didn't know they were pregnant, not because of any medical issue.
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So what? Have you not been reading the sources posted that refute you? Just because there are fetuses of that age aborted does not mean that they were sentient. You are making an assumption that appears to be refuted by the evidence.

In fact you need to support all of those claims you just made in this post too.
 
W

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
So what? Have you not been reading the sources posted that refute you? Just because there are fetuses of that age aborted does not mean that they were sentient. You are making an assumption that appears to be refuted by the evidence.

In fact you need to support all of those claims you just made in this post too.
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Fetuses are sentient by 18 weeks... And can probably experience pain before that, of course that's not an argument for early abortions being ok.

There are serious problems with this argument.

First, it confuses harm with hurt and the experience of harm with the reality of harm. One can be harmed without experiencing the hurt that sometimes follows from that harm. If you smother a comatose person you're still killing them even if they can not feel anything.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Wildswanderer said:
No need. Babies can be born at 21 weeks and survive. They are obviously fully human.
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Nope. That is an unjustified opinion. You are trying to base a law on an exception and not on a a general case. By the way, this is also why you are wrong about the original meaning of Exodus 21 22. The proper interpretation is "miscarriage". You cannot claim that they are "fully human" without evidence. The twenty one week old fetus that you were talking about was not human until it breathed. And for a fetus that early it is dubious. Their brains are not fully functional at that time. They cannot even begin to work at sentient levels until after it is born. Then it can breathe. Then it can get the oxygen that the brain needs to work.

If you approach this from a scientific perspective you are wrong. If you approach this from a biblical perspective you are wrong. Even if we grant your arguments you still are wrong. You have shown that yourself countless times.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Wildswanderer said:
Fetuses are sentient by 18 weeks... And can probably experience pain before that, of course that's not an argument for early abortions being ok.

There are serious problems with this argument.

First, it confuses harm with hurt and the experience of harm with the reality of harm. One can be harmed without experiencing the hurt that sometimes follows from that harm. If you smother a comatose person you're still killing them even if they can not feel anything.
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BS! That claim of yours has been refuted endlessly. Find an article from a well respected peer reviewed journal that supports your claim about sentience. You won't find it. To be sentient the brain has to be working. A fetus is at below the level of a coma for brain activity. Your analogy fails for that reason. It was never sentient. it was never alive. Once again, to be awake and aware a human brain needs oxygen. A lot of it. I have never seen a fetus with a snorkel.
 
W

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
BS! That claim of yours has been refuted endlessly. Find an article from a well respected peer reviewed journal that supports your claim about sentience. You won't find it. To be sentient the brain has to be working. A fetus is at below the level of a coma for brain activity. Your analogy fails for that reason. It was never sentient. it was never alive. Once again, to be awake and aware a human brain needs oxygen. A lot of it. I have never seen a fetus with a snorkel.
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Never alive? I'm starting to suspect you are comatose.
A baby’s heartbeat can be detected as early as eighteen days after conception. Brain waves have been detected about six weeks after conception. Dream patterns were also discovered around the eighth of ninth week. Independent movement such as kicking and stretching were detected medically about the sixth week. A baby in the womb is capable of responding to touch and sound by the eighth to tenth week of development. By the fourteenth week, a baby’s lungs are functioning, and vocal cords are formed by the thirteenth week.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Wildswanderer said:
Never alive? I'm starting to suspect you are comatose.
A baby’s heartbeat can be detected as early as eighteen days after conception. Brain waves have been detected about six weeks after conception. Dream patterns were also discovered around the eighth of ninth week. Independent movement such as kicking and stretching were detected medically about the sixth week. A baby in the womb is capable of responding to touch and sound by the eighth to tenth week of development. By the fourteenth week, a baby’s lungs are functioning, and vocal cords are formed by the thirteenth week.
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More empty claims. Too bad that you can never find a reliable soruce.
 
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