Surprising lack of knowledge among theists.

[Autodidact]

Would you consider me bigoted if I believed that all leadership positions within the government should be help by LDS because we will do a better job of leading this country simply because of our religion?

But he didn't say anything of the kind. What he said was, if Atheists had a fraction of the influence that the Jewish lobby has, that would be a good thing.

 

[Autodidact]

Wow. It is most amazing that you don't see it, and speaks volumes about your perception of the "Jewish Lobby". Kudos to Jay for this excellent example.

Friends... I have no problems with atheists and I consider many to be friends and comrades. However, Dawkins breeds an intolerance and condescension towards those of faith that is abominable. The sad part is that he attempts to make this intolerance sound reasonable. So reasonable, that when you slapped in the face with an obviously bigoted quote: you don't see the bigotry.

Now, I have no need to be berated into believing that Dawkins is otherwise. If you really WANT to understand what I believe, then by all means read what I say. However, don't be surprised if I take your misrepresentations of me as buffoonery and merely a mean spirited way of debating. I don't appreciate it and have no time for your poisoning the well with your inaccurate statements.

I can't see it either.

 

[Autodidact]

As with most hasty generalizations, you would be generally WRONG.

If you are still CLUELESS as to the bigotry inherent in this statement, sashay on over here: Melanie Phillips’s Diary » The bigotry of the rationalist Perhaps Melanie can help with your general acceptance of Dawkins as being something other than a bigot.

Explain it to me. Why is it bigoted to recognize the reality that there is a powerful Jewish lobby in the U.S., or to propose and equivalent lobby for atheists?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Explain it to me. Why is it bigoted to recognize the reality that there is a powerful Jewish lobby in the U.S., or to propose and equivalent lobby for atheists?

My guess is, the notion that the Jews are monopolizing American foreign policy lends itself to the paranoia that the Jews are trying to control everything, a view embodied in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and espoused by all manners of anti-semite.


But that's just my guess.

 

[Apex]

But he didn't say anything of the kind. What he said was, if Atheists had a fraction of the influence that the Jewish lobby has, that would be a good thing.

See #509

 

[Scuba Pete]

But that's just my guess.

Such a good guess at that! Your mother would be proud!

 

[gnomon]

And this is in a religious country like the U.S. What conclusions can be drawn from such a woeful lack of knowledge about people's own religion?

Hear that.....

I think I hear a Simon & Garfunkel classic playing.

 

[Autodidact]

No, he said the world would be a better place if athiests had more influence. I can only see that statement as bigoted no matter if you replace "athiests" with "Christian", "Muslim", "Buddhist", whatever. If he thought athiests need more influence he could have simply stated so. Instead he said "the world would be a better place". Religion should have no bearing on a group having influence to make the world a better place. I am sorry, but I also believe that Dawkins has written his arguments so they are slight enough to insult theists yet give non-theists excuses to say they are not meant to be offensive. They guy knows how to write a book and be as controversial as possible to sell as many books as possible.

"The world would be a better place if members of group ______________ had more influence," is a bigoted statement?!? Wow, that's weird. I mean, the entire contemporary direction of many Christian organizations for the last 20 years has been an effort for them to get more influence. Is the AFA, Focus on the Family, etc. etc. bigoted just for trying to get influence? I don't get where you're coming from at all.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Then the XIan belief that atheists wills suffer eternal punishment because of their refusal to accept the saving gace of god is also a bigoted belief?

One can only applaud someone who chooses as his username an obvious (and apparently challenging) stretch goal.

 

[Autodidact]

No, I am suggesting that he is ALREADY bigoted. It's merely a small step to incite genocide, and I pray that he doesn't go that route. In fact, I pray that NO ONE who feels that way about the Jews ever takes the next step and acts on their bigotry.

Bigotry is insidious and even more so when it is made to sound to be reasonable. Again, I have NO PROBLEMS with atheism, and am confident that Dawkins does not represent the vast majority of atheists. That Jay (an atheist) ALSO sees him in the same light should bear some witness that I am not the only one who sees this.

I feel that way, and I'm a Jew, and a first-generation descendant of an actual victim of actual genocide, and you sound hysterical and full of baloney.

 

[Tau]

This simply is not a true statement.

It really is I have read his books, the attacks are frequent.

 

[Tau]

My guess is, the notion that the Jews are monopolizing American foreign policy lends itself to the paranoia that the Jews are trying to control everything, a view embodied in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and espoused by all manners of anti-semite.


But that's just my guess.

A fairly accurate one I will wager.

 

[Poisonshady313]

A fairly accurate one I will wager.

Thanks, Tau.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I feel that way, and I'm a Jew, and a first-generation descendant of an actual victim of actual genocide,

I had never contemplated the existence of an "Uncle Tom Jew" until this very moment. I also lost family in concentration camps: both in Germany and in China. It amazes me that the horror of bigotry somehow escapes you.

and you sound hysterical and full of baloney.

Well, thanks for the personal attack! I will cherish it along with all the others.

 

[Magic Man]

It amazes me that the horror of bigotry somehow escapes you.

What amazes me is your ability to extrapolate bigotry from everything, even when it's not present, and your ability to let your bias cloud all of your judgements.

 

[Tau]

Thanks, Tau.

You're welcome.

I have heard that old chesnut so many times...people really believe it too, I know who rules the world and they dont really give a damn about Israel or the average gentile/semite, its all a game, nations are as much pawns to these people as individuals are.

 

[gnomon]

I had never contemplated the existence of an "Uncle Tom Jew" until this very moment. I also lost family in concentration camps: both in Germany and in China. It amazes me that the horror of bigotry somehow escapes you. Well, thanks for the personal attack! I will cherish it along with all the others.

Is it possible for someone to outdo their own stupidity.

Before all this off topic nonsense of members whining about their fear of Dawkins based on the flimsiest of evidence read with the widest of interpretations was amusing.

Now it's just sick.

 

[Sunstone]

I had never contemplated the existence of an "Uncle Tom Jew" until this very moment.

That was uncalled for.

 

[Tau]

Is it possible for someone to outdo their own stupidity.

Before all this off topic nonsense of members whining about their fear of Dawkins based on the flimsiest of evidence read with the widest of interpretations was amusing.

Now it's just sick.

Richard Dawkins......a bloody good scientist.

No need to fear him, he has not said anything which alters my beliefs in God, but then i don't take the Bible literally.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

"[Jews] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. ..."

I'm honestly trying to figure out what is bigotted about that.

Well, as a Jew and an atheist I can't see anything the least bit bigoted in this statement. It is a simple statement of fact that there is a powerful Jewish lobby in America.

From ynet:

Jews 'monopolize American policy'

Leading UK scientist draws fire from Jewish organizations; ADL: his remarks are 'classical anti-Semitism'

Yaakov Lappin
Published: 10.08.07, 18:38 / Israel Jewish Scene

A top British scientist drew fire from American Jewish organizations on Monday, after remarking that the American Jewish lobby is "monopolizing American foreign policy."

Professor Richard Dawkins, a leading evolutionary biologist at Oxford University, was quoted by the British Guardian newspaper as saying last week: "When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and (yet they) more or less monopolize American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place."

Dawkins is currently touring the US to promote an atheist organization he helped set up. His visit is aimed at curbing the influence of religion in America.

Responding to the remarks, Abe Foxman, National Director of the ADL, told Ynetnews: "This is classical anti-Semitism. Just because it's wrapped around an issue of atheism doesn't make it any less virulent, anti-Semitic and dangerous."

Malcom Hoenlein, Executive Vice Chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Organizations, said that Dawkins' comments show "that even great scientists can demonstrate ignorance and fall victim to disinformation and misinformation, either willingly or unwillingly."

"I can't judge whether it's anti-Semitism," Hoenlein told Ynetnews, "but this shows the danger of what I call the poisoning of the elite, and how this impact spreads within the intellectual community, and then trickles down to the general populace," he added.

Judeophobic sentiments

Hoenlein drew parallels between Dawkins's comments and a recent attack on the American Jewish lobby by US academics Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer, who co-authored a book on 'the Israel lobby.'

"We see it in the Walt-Mearsheimer phenomenon. The marginal fringes are increasingly acceptable in mainstream. That he would express such a view is a reflection of this," Hoenlein said.

London Times columnist Daniel Finkelstein, who is Jewish, also expressed concern at the apparent mainstreaming of Judeophobic sentiments. "I have just come across the most extraordinary statement by Richard Dawkins. It is right there on the Guardian website without a sentence even questioning it... Dawkins, a liberal hero, believes that Jews control world power. And, judging from the Guardian, it is now a part of mainstream debate to say so. Perhaps you think I am overreacting, but I am a little bit frightened," Finkelstein wrote.​

As antisemitic talking points go, the "Jews control foreign policy"/"international Jewish conspiracy" proudly shares the stage with the Protocols of Zion, and is no less dispicable when blessed by some 'autodidact'.