Taxation is...

[Shaul]

Some things need to be done for the common good, and not by a profit-seeking entity.

But governments do seek to profit. The form of the profit is usually power, not cash. Rare is the government that eschews more power.

 

[sayak83]

I'm of the opinion it is theft. I never consented. I don't think the government should have a monopoly on essential services. Statists tout this monopoly as proof that society would implode without a government taxing them. Is it really too hard to wrap your head around how a flat surface could be paved in absence of a government?

Paying tax is a moral duty of every citizen of a well ordered democratic state. Government is run by people's representatives and even though imperfectly, it works towards maintaining facilities that are available to all the people, and not to the richest people. For, despite all the obfuscations, every person's vote has equal weight in the ballot box, and hence the representatives can be forced to care about every voter, and not just the agenda of the richest donor.
But of course....no taxation without representation. So it is theft in autocratic states.

 

[Orbit]

But governments do seek to profit. The form of the profit is usually power, not cash. Rare is the government that eschews more power.

In my experience, they pave the roads. It's a practical matter.

 

[Shaul]

Taxation is a societal necessity in order for us to have things like clean air, functioning roads, and social safety services.

That isn't true. Even if you assume the premise that only the government could provide those things (which I reject) it doesn't follow that taxes are the required mechanism for financing them.

 

[Shaul]

The poll choices are incomplete. Taxes are a taking of property.

 

[Shaul]

In my experience, they pave the roads. It's a practical matter.

I have paid for the paving of my own roads privately. Also there are many private, non-government supported, roads. They are called toll roads.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That isn't true. Even if you assume the premise that only the government could provide those things (which I reject) it doesn't follow that taxes are the required mechanism for financing them.

Please do explain how you would finance all that a state does without taxation.

 

[Shaul]

Paying tax is a moral duty of every citizen of a well ordered democratic state. Government is run by people's representatives and even though imperfectly, it works towards maintaining facilities that are available to all the people, and not to the richest people. For, despite all the obfuscations, every person's vote has equal weight in the ballot box, and hence the representatives can be forced to care about every voter, and not just the agenda of the richest donor.
But of course....no taxation without representation. So it is theft in autocratic states.

Nonsense. Using taxation as a means of government financing isn't a per se requirement at all. There are countries that don't have taxes yet provide essential services.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Nonsense. Using taxation as a means of government financing isn't a per se requirement at all. There are countries that don't have taxes yet provide essential services.

Evidence please. And explain essential services.

 

[metis]

It cannot be "theft" if people vote to have it, plus "no man [or women] is an island".

Even hunting & gathering bands had their own form of "taxation", such as when a deer is killed it is not just the hunter's deer-- it's the band's. Selfishness is nor a virtue with them-- it and those who violate their norms are to be shunned.

 

[metis]

Nonsense. Using taxation as a means of government financing isn't a per se requirement at all. There are countries that don't have taxes yet provide essential services.

Name one.

 

[Shaul]

Please do explain how you would finance all that a state does without taxation.

There are many alternatives to finance government services besides taxation. Just a few of them include: voluntary contributions, lotteries, pay-for-service licenses, and privatization of services. The fact is there are alternatives to taxes.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

There are many alternatives to finance government services besides taxation. Just a few of them include: voluntary contributions, lotteries, pay-for-service licenses, and privatization of services. The fact is there are alternatives to taxes.

So you can fund e.g. the military that way? There are other essential services. Can you give a real life example of that?

 

[Alien826]

Well, I gave you an example last time around we were doing this.
But here is a new one.
You are born with inability to functionally work. You have poor parents and they can't support you forever. In fact all your relative are dirty poor and can't help you, when you come of age.
Now what?

As the alien replied to the President in Independence Day ... Die, Die!

(Yes I can say things in jest too).

 

[Shaul]

It cannot be "theft" if people vote to have it, plus "no man [or women] is an island".

Even hunting & gathering bands had their own form of "taxation", such as when a deer is killed it is not just the hunter's deer-- it's the band's. Selfishness is nor a virtue with them-- it and those who violate their norms are to be shunned.

This assumes that all forms of theft are contrary to codified law. There could be a case of theft by legislation. It is quite possible for a majority to vote in favor of theft.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This assumes that all forms of theft are contrary to codified law. There could be a case of theft by legislation. It is quite possible for a majority to vote in favor of theft.

You are aware theft is a social construct, right?

 

[The Hammer]

That isn't true. Even if you assume the premise that only the government could provide those things (which I reject) it doesn't follow that taxes are the required mechanism for financing them.

Never seen it work any other way then via the government.

Do you have examples.of where taxation is completely irrelevant?

If not through taxation, how else does the government get the funding to do these projects?

 

[The Hammer]

There are many alternatives to finance government services besides taxation. Just a few of them include: voluntary contributions, lotteries, pay-for-service licenses, and privatization of services. The fact is there are alternatives to taxes.

None of those have ever historically worked for a large scale society. They may work in villages, and townships (maybe). But no where else. Certainly not in a place like the US federation or the EU.

 

[Shaul]

So you can fund e.g. the military that way? There are other essential services. Can you give a real life example of that?

Is a military a necessity? Costa Rica doesn't have one. But assuming that a society decides it wants a military. It doesn't follow that taxation is the only way to finance it. Some countries use tariffs or profits from nationalized markets to finance their military. Perhaps you want to critique particular examples. I have no interest in doing so. The particulars are not as important as the truth that it is possible.

 

[Alien826]

But governments do seek to profit. The form of the profit is usually power, not cash. Rare is the government that eschews more power.

Yes, Governments are made up of people, and people have flaws. So let's turn it all over to those that don't have flaws .... <looks around for some, doesn't see any>.

More directly, that's why we have democracy, in an attempt to limit the power of rulers. It's not working so well at the moment, but I have a feeling giving up on government would be worse. Maybe not, please try it, but not here. Let me know how it goes.