Taxation is...

[mikkel_the_dane]

No problem. Simply don't use them and you don't pay for them either. But someone taxed to pay for roads is given no such choice. One is voluntary, the other taxes, is not.

Get the votes. If you can't get the votes, it won't work. The same for what I want to do.

 

[Orbit]

No problem. Simply don't use them and you don't pay for them either. But someone taxed to pay for roads is given no such choice. One is voluntary, the other taxes, is not.

This is what I mean by the common good. Services should not be privatized and charged to individuals. Roads, fire departments, police departments, water etc should all be public, and paid for by taxation.

 

[The Hammer]

This is what I mean by the common good. Services should not be privatized and charged to individuals. Roads, fire departments, police departments, water etc should all be public, and paid for by taxation.

Right? Who wants a privatized police force? Or fire department.

"Yeah, we'll come to your house and investigate that burglary. For the low low cost of 6 installations of $25.99."

 

[Koldo]

It is one part. The point is that a society can take constructive actions to reduce and/or eliminate their need for a military. And that in so doing they reduce or eliminate the need for taxes to support military expenditures. The point is still valid that the argument that taxes are a necessity because there is such a thing as a military is false.

Erm... Depends on what you mean by that. On this particular example, the neighbor is paying taxes to support their military, so someone is paying taxes. Now, let's imagine your allies manage to gather an army without making use of taxes...You are certainly expected to be oferring something in return... If it is money, I sincerely doubt you are going to get a deal like this without taxes involved (as in a lot of people all by themselves deciding to contribute financially, for example). That's like believing world hunger could be solved through charity. If it is something else you are offering, you can expect massive trouble coming in your way to the point you would be better off paying for it...

 

[Alien826]

Yes. It's selfishness gone blind. It thinks everyone else's selfishness will somehow mitigate and balance out all the insane effects of our collective unchecked selfishness. Huh?

The problem, though, isn't that taxation insults our innate selfishness. Of course it does. The problem is that the bully-boys are always among us, and always just waiting their turn to wreck havoc on us all. Which is why the fantasy of anarchy lasts just as long as it takes the local bully-boys to see that their desire to abuse and exploit everyone around them is standing unopposed. At which time they will gleefully spring into action.

It's why governments were formed in the first place - to protect the non-bully-boys from the bully-boys. And those bully-boys are in us, among us, and all around us. So that protection needs to be full service, and trustworthy. It requires a justice system, effective policing, and a strong standing army. All of which requires a lot of money to set up and run. Money that can only come from, and should come from, the people being protected.

Yes. Very well said.

What makes me sad though is that the bully boys are not stupid, though their followers are. That's why we so often see them taking over the very structures that were set up to control them. Recent history in the USA is their stepping over the line and letting their presence be seen. The clever ones don't milk the cow enough to be noticed.

Something I've observed also is that they exist at all levels of society. It's not just the oligarchs versus the rest of us. They will take over any power structure that they can, local government, school boards, HOAs, and we let them because the average Joe and Jane prefers to get on with their lives and not be bothered with this "stuff".

 

[Guitar's Cry]

It's neither. It's a feature of being part of a cooperative biological community. Wolves share the spoils of the hunt.

 

[Alien826]

"we"?

Perhaps voices of dissent should be considered. Or at least given a hearing!

So you recognize there is taking of wealth going on. It isn't so hard to understand that many, many would disagree with how the money taken is spent and how much is taken. Ignoring those who want less of their wealth taken to pay for things they don't even want is a sure recipe for increased taxation. Taxation can be reduced, if we want to.

Now you are talking about how the decisions on how spending and taxation are made. I was assuming that was already settled by the democratic process, admittedly imperfect. And that's where dissent takes place, or should do.

Sure there are people that want to pay less taxes and have less benefits, though the benefits they want to cut are typically given to others. If they win out in the democratic process, then what you want will happen. At some point though there has to be a consensus. We can't have all taxation and benefits individually determined, for obvious reasons.

 

[Alien826]

Right? Who wants a privatized police force? Or fire department.

"Yeah, we'll come to your house and investigate that burglary. For the low low cost of 6 installations of $25.99."

There's an interesting example in English history, when there really were private fire brigades. They were run and funded by insurance companies and only put out fires on properties that were insured by that company. The buildings had what were called "fire marks", metal plates identifying which company insured them, and these became quite collectible later. A given fire brigade would only control a fire in an uninsured building if it threatened to spread to "their" building.

This is from memory, I don't guarantee its total accuracy. Look it up, it's interesting.

 

[The Hammer]

There's an interesting example in English history, when there really were private fire brigades. They were run and funded by insurance companies and only put out fires on properties that were insured by that company. The buildings had what were called "fire marks", metal plates identifying which company insured them, and these became quite collectible later. A given fire brigade would only control a fire in an uninsured building if it threatened to spread to "their" building.

This is from memory, I don't guarantee its total accuracy. Look it up, it's interesting.

That sounds like a terrible idea. I'll look it up.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm of the opinion it is theft. I never consented. I don't think the government should have a monopoly on essential services. Statists tout this monopoly as proof that society would implode without a government taxing them. Is it really too hard to wrap your head around how a flat surface could be paved in absence of a government?

So you would be prepared to build the infrastructure to enable your family to get fresh water, and get rid of the stinky stuff? At your own expense? And where would you send the effluent -- over the fence to your neighbour's property?

 

[Sand Dancer]

This is what I mean by the common good. Services should not be privatized and charged to individuals. Roads, fire departments, police departments, water etc should all be public, and paid for by taxation.

Plus, private businesses and endeavors can discriminate against people for whatever reason they want. They don't have to serve the general public.

 

[We Never Know]

I'm of the opinion it is theft. I never consented. I don't think the government should have a monopoly on essential services. Statists tout this monopoly as proof that society would implode without a government taxing them. Is it really too hard to wrap your head around how a flat surface could be paved in absence of a government?

I voted "The price we pay for civilized society" however in my opinion much of it is poorly used, poorly allocated and used to line the pockets of some.

 

[We Never Know]

Right? Who wants a privatized police force? Or fire department.

"Yeah, we'll come to your house and investigate that burglary. For the low low cost of 6 installations of $25.99."

There are "no pay, no spray" fire departments. If you don't pay your membership fees/dues, they won't put out your house fire.

Firefighters in rural Tennessee let a home burn to the ground because the homeowner hadn't paid a $75 fee.

https://www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproj...share=https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna39516346

 

[The Hammer]

Their are "no pay, no spray" fire departments. If you don't pay your membership fees/dues, they won't put out your house fire.

Firefighters in rural Tennessee let a home burn to the ground because the homeowner hadn't paid a $75 fee.


https://www-nbcnews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna39516346?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==#aoh=16657950029432&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna39516346

Oof. That's terrible and shouldn't be allowed. How is that allowed? Does every citizen in that township have to pay a membership fee, or risk burning? What about the police? Will they let a person be murdered because "they didn't pay their fees"?

Seems... Barbaric imo

 

[We Never Know]

Oof. That's terrible and shouldn't be allowed. How is that allowed? Does every citizen in that township have to pay a membership fee, or risk burning? What about the police? Will they let a person be murdered because "they didn't pay their fees"?

Seems... Barbaric imo

Sadly there are small rural fire departments that way. They depend on fees/dues to survive.
"No pay, no spray" is sometimes what they stick to.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes there is. It's a simple "how much in-coming money, allows projects to be completed."

Also called special interest for the union contracts awarded in exchange for votes.

 

[The Hammer]

Also called special interest for the union contracts awarded in exchange for votes.

I like unions and find the one I was a part (culinary) of quite useful.

Every labor industry should be unionized.

But that's a seperate topic.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Right? Who wants a privatized police force? Or fire department.

"Yeah, we'll come to your house and investigate that burglary. For the low low cost of 6 installations of $25.99."

Cheaper than NY taxes.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I like unions and find the one I was a part (culinary) of quite useful.

Every labor industry should be unionized.

But that's a seperate topic.

Just buy your own private politician.

 

[We Never Know]

I like unions and find the one I was a part (culinary) of quite useful.

Every labor industry should be unionized.

But that's a seperate topic.

"Every labor industry should be unionized."

Yes and no.

Take new vehicles for example. If workers weren't paid $80-$100 per hour(achieved through their union) to put in nuts and bolts, etc.,, new vehicles would be more affordable to many.

However there are some who only make a decent wage because of their union.