Mr Spinkles
Mr
By the way I should say that Noam Chomsky made basically the same point, I found it compelling and I reiterated what he said.
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Tea Party Convention
- Thread starter Darkness
- Start date
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
At least he hasn't put food on his family.
:run:
dust1n
Zindīq
Oh there is truth in what he is saying, but it's not the entire truth. There are leftists who want to reach people just like there are right-wingers who want what they think is best for society. It is very keen observation though. Like I stated in my first post, the left have died since Obama has been in office. Basically no protest. While the a meanger amount of right-wingers who aren't going to change anything (if you think otherwise, anyone, then tell me what the right-wingers are going to do if their demands aren't made?) embarrass the left, which has been traditionally been the 'protesters'.
You know, I've asked a question a couple of times now in different ways, and I really would like to hear an answer from someone who knows: exactly what are the people who participate in these Tea Parties hoping to accomplish? What outcome would count as a "win" for the cause?
But what exactly is the Republican message? Their rallying points are nearly always fear-mongering distortions of what the left/progressives/liberals are trying to accomplish.
I think the problem is that fear and sensationalism sell, and the Republicans are really good at that. They are willing to go there.
I just don't see how the Democrats can compete with that, unless they want to play on that same playing field of lies.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Once again, you're making the mistake of considering all the Tea Partiers to be Republicans, Smoke.
The vast majority of people attending these rallies are middle class, middle aged, law abiding, tax-paying citizens. They aren't traditionally the type who "buck the system." Most of them have to take a day of vacation to attend any of these rallies unless they're on a weekend (some rallies have been during the week). Many of them feel uncomfortable, because they've never before even considered participating in any sort of public protest.
From my several experiences at rallies, and my involvement with a non-partisan political group in my area, I can tell you what the people I know want to accomplish. Of course I can't speak for every person or every group.
We want Washington (not just Obama - all the career politicians on both sides of the fence - and even those riding the fence) to really understand how upset we are about the way they handle their business - and our tax dollars and our children's future. We want them to know that their level of corruption, waste, and disrespect for the American people has been revealed and noted.
We don't want to riot in the streets, stage sit-ins, turn over cars, burn tires, smash shop windows - all we want to do is get their attention in a lawful, peaceful manner. We want them to CHANGE the way things are handled. We want them to stop putting their political career above the needs and desires of the people they claim to represent - who gave them their job.
We want to remind them that WE are part of their constituency and that they need to listen to us at least as much as they listen to the money that special interest groups send their way.
We're alarmed at the national debt, and by the persistent recession and unemployment rates - and we want our representatives to listen to our ideas regarding economics and our very valid concerns and suggestions about how to regain our economic strength.
Really, from where I stand, that's about it.
The vast majority of people attending these rallies are middle class, middle aged, law abiding, tax-paying citizens. They aren't traditionally the type who "buck the system." Most of them have to take a day of vacation to attend any of these rallies unless they're on a weekend (some rallies have been during the week). Many of them feel uncomfortable, because they've never before even considered participating in any sort of public protest.
From my several experiences at rallies, and my involvement with a non-partisan political group in my area, I can tell you what the people I know want to accomplish. Of course I can't speak for every person or every group.
We want Washington (not just Obama - all the career politicians on both sides of the fence - and even those riding the fence) to really understand how upset we are about the way they handle their business - and our tax dollars and our children's future. We want them to know that their level of corruption, waste, and disrespect for the American people has been revealed and noted.
We don't want to riot in the streets, stage sit-ins, turn over cars, burn tires, smash shop windows - all we want to do is get their attention in a lawful, peaceful manner. We want them to CHANGE the way things are handled. We want them to stop putting their political career above the needs and desires of the people they claim to represent - who gave them their job.
We want to remind them that WE are part of their constituency and that they need to listen to us at least as much as they listen to the money that special interest groups send their way.
We're alarmed at the national debt, and by the persistent recession and unemployment rates - and we want our representatives to listen to our ideas regarding economics and our very valid concerns and suggestions about how to regain our economic strength.
Really, from where I stand, that's about it.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Why no tea parties during Bush's last term.
He started two illegal wars on the basis of lies, and just Iraq is more costly to the national debt than anything that Obama has done. AND the costs of war were not even figured into the national budget.
If these tea partiers really want to protect their children, they should be concerned with throwing out the Republican bloodlust that will eventually result in war with Iran.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
You and I will probably never know the full truth about 9/11, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran - that whole mess. I'm sure we've been lied to, and are still being lied to. However, I do believe that we are a necessary force in the Middle East.
I'm sure you disagree with that -and you may be right. I may be right. Time will tell.
However, I don't oppose the need for military action and presence in the Middle East. I have three children in the military now for that matter, and I pray for their safety every day. But I am proud of their choice of a career and I support them and what they believe they are called to do.
I'm sure you disagree with that -and you may be right. I may be right. Time will tell.
However, I don't oppose the need for military action and presence in the Middle East. I have three children in the military now for that matter, and I pray for their safety every day. But I am proud of their choice of a career and I support them and what they believe they are called to do.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
As am I.
I'm not against wars.
I'm simply puzzeled at the hypocrisy of the Tea Party movement in focusing on the little fish instead of the big one. Health care is not as costly as illegal wars (because we have little to no help from other countries) and the denial of civil rights.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Tea Partiers do not consider economic disaster and the erosion of the Constitution to be "little fish." They are very concerned about the possibility of socialized medicine, which could financially devastate our already precarious economy.
They do not consider our presence in the middle east to be an illegal war, generally speaking - though I can't speak for all Tea Partiers obviously, because we are a diverse group that includes some Democrats, some Libertarians, and many independent voters.
They do not consider our presence in the middle east to be an illegal war, generally speaking - though I can't speak for all Tea Partiers obviously, because we are a diverse group that includes some Democrats, some Libertarians, and many independent voters.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Look, I'm just trying to help people understand the mindset and some of the goals of the participants in the Tea Party movement.
If you really study American history, you may be surprised to find that the British government wasn't totally "the bad guy." Some would say that our Founding Fathers overreacted - and certainly all of them did not have sterling motives. Heck, they didn't all even agree with each other on the approach, the forms of protest, and certainly not the war with England.
But overall, their goal of independence and their right to self government was compelling and could be validated and supported by the majority.
Not all Tea Party participants have the same ideas, goals, or beliefs. We're a very diverse crowd, so it's impossible to speak for everyone involved. But overall, I believe that the goal of smaller government, with a greater emphasis on capitalism - and most of all, accountability of our elected representatives - is a worthy goal and what unites most of us.
If you really study American history, you may be surprised to find that the British government wasn't totally "the bad guy." Some would say that our Founding Fathers overreacted - and certainly all of them did not have sterling motives. Heck, they didn't all even agree with each other on the approach, the forms of protest, and certainly not the war with England.
But overall, their goal of independence and their right to self government was compelling and could be validated and supported by the majority.
Not all Tea Party participants have the same ideas, goals, or beliefs. We're a very diverse crowd, so it's impossible to speak for everyone involved. But overall, I believe that the goal of smaller government, with a greater emphasis on capitalism - and most of all, accountability of our elected representatives - is a worthy goal and what unites most of us.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
They did when Bush was in office.
Smoke
Done here.
No, I'm not. However, the movement is promoted by the Republican house organ, FoxNews, and coordinated by Republican-led groups. The protesters often repeat Republican rhetoric on healthcare and many of them seem obsessed with conspiracy theories about President Obama. Many of them also seem to think the stimulus plan is the reason for our national debt, which is ludicrous.
From Wikipedia:
The Tea Party movement also includes several more formal entities, with slightly different approaches to their advocacy:
< - snip - >
Conversely, the protests attracted support from and been promoted by conservative commentators such as Sean Hannity, Michelle Malkin, Glenn Beck, and Glenn Reynolds, former House Majority Leader Dick Armey, rock guitarist and political activist Ted Nugent, country musician John Rich, former Arkansas Republican Governor Mike Huckabee, and conservative radio host Neal Boortz.
< - snip - >
On April 12, Howard Kurtz said on CNN's Reliable Sources, "Fox News gets on board in a big way with this week's tea party protests" and "The folks at Fox News ... are firmly in favor of tea parties." On April 15, he said, "I don't think I've ever seen a news network throw its weight behind a protest like we are seeing in the past few weeks with FOX and these tea parties."
< - snip - >
Allegations of "astroturfing" appeared in a Playboy article by Mark Ames and Yasha Levine in February 2009. The article was removed after libel claims, but no legal action materialized. The authors repeated and elaborated their allegations elsewherethat the tea party protests were a "carefully organized and sophisticated PR campaign . . . for the some of the craziest and sleaziest rightwing oligarch clans this country has ever produced," including the Koch family, Dick Armey and FreedomWorks. On October 3, 2009, David H. Koch said the tea party protests fulfilled "the vision" of the board of directors of the conservative political advocacy group Americans for Prosperity when it was founded in 2004.
- The Tea Party Patriots are a national organization that claims to have over 1000 local chapters, run with the help of Freedomworks, a conservative nonprofit led by former Republican House Majority Leader Dick Armey.[
- The Tea Party Express is a national bus tour run by the Our Country Deserves Better PAC, a conservative Political Action Committee created by and linked to Sacramento-based GOP consulting firm Russo, Marsh, and Associates.
< - snip - >
Conversely, the protests attracted support from and been promoted by conservative commentators such as Sean Hannity, Michelle Malkin, Glenn Beck, and Glenn Reynolds, former House Majority Leader Dick Armey, rock guitarist and political activist Ted Nugent, country musician John Rich, former Arkansas Republican Governor Mike Huckabee, and conservative radio host Neal Boortz.
< - snip - >
On April 12, Howard Kurtz said on CNN's Reliable Sources, "Fox News gets on board in a big way with this week's tea party protests" and "The folks at Fox News ... are firmly in favor of tea parties." On April 15, he said, "I don't think I've ever seen a news network throw its weight behind a protest like we are seeing in the past few weeks with FOX and these tea parties."
< - snip - >
Allegations of "astroturfing" appeared in a Playboy article by Mark Ames and Yasha Levine in February 2009. The article was removed after libel claims, but no legal action materialized. The authors repeated and elaborated their allegations elsewherethat the tea party protests were a "carefully organized and sophisticated PR campaign . . . for the some of the craziest and sleaziest rightwing oligarch clans this country has ever produced," including the Koch family, Dick Armey and FreedomWorks. On October 3, 2009, David H. Koch said the tea party protests fulfilled "the vision" of the board of directors of the conservative political advocacy group Americans for Prosperity when it was founded in 2004.
As long as people want two expensive wars and minimal taxes, deficits aren't going anywhere.
It interests me that the tea parties focus on the evils of Obama, when almost all the actual problems we have were caused by the Republicans. There's a cognitive disconnect here.
I know they're not all Republicans, but I think they're all being punked by the Republican Party.
Smoke
Done here.
Funny how it never bothered them till Obama took office, though, isn't it?
How do you figure that?
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Smoke
Done here.
Smaller government: I'm all for it. We spend way too much on war.
Greater emphasis on capitalism: What does this mean, exactly, and why would it be a good thing?
Accountability of our elected representatives: In what ways do you think they are not accountable, but should be?
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I agree.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I was bored with it last night. But I'll give it the old college try, through the haze of meds I'm on.
Greater emphasis on capitalism: By this I mean, creating an environment that encourages and rewards small to midsize companies and the tenets of free enterprise. Removing obstacles that impede the creation and growth of private enterprise. The commitment NOT to raise taxes on small to midsize business owners and their employees (including upper management). No more "stimulus plans"" that reward ineptitude and corruption. Allowing companies that are in danger of failing to simply do that - FAIL. Less government intervention in private enterprise.
Accountability of our elected officials: No more closed door meetings with lobbyists. Term limits. Tort reform. Readable bills that don't include last minute add-ons that have not been publically aired or discussed. The responsibility to listen to, answer to, and honestly represent the concerns of the officials' actual constituents and voting bloc.
Greater emphasis on capitalism: By this I mean, creating an environment that encourages and rewards small to midsize companies and the tenets of free enterprise. Removing obstacles that impede the creation and growth of private enterprise. The commitment NOT to raise taxes on small to midsize business owners and their employees (including upper management). No more "stimulus plans"" that reward ineptitude and corruption. Allowing companies that are in danger of failing to simply do that - FAIL. Less government intervention in private enterprise.
Accountability of our elected officials: No more closed door meetings with lobbyists. Term limits. Tort reform. Readable bills that don't include last minute add-ons that have not been publically aired or discussed. The responsibility to listen to, answer to, and honestly represent the concerns of the officials' actual constituents and voting bloc.