Tell me where in the Bible does Jesus clearly say that he's God

[sojourner]

If it is not 'word of God' - it is totally subjective as to whether the inspiration is 'authentic' or not - and I certainly wouldn't recommend betting your eternal salvation on 'fickle human subjectivity'.

Right! Ours is a relationship-based religion. We bet our eternal salvation on Jesus, who was fully human.


BTW: Wasn't your Muhammed a "fickly-subjective" human, as well?

 

[sojourner]

Well if you're saying that God's words come thru people, then I can make any claim I want and claim that it was from God, that is your logic right there.

Besides, God obviously wouldn't let a book that represents the "right" religion be flawed.

First of all, there is no "right" religion -- unless it's "right" for you, of course.
Second, the religion is comprised of people -- ekklesia. We are flawed. Why shouldn't the religion that is comprised of us be flawed?

 

[sojourner]

Determined to be authentic and authentic are two different things.

No, they aren't. You have "determined" that the Quran is authentic. (I, on the other hand, have "determined" that it is not.)

It's either authentic or it isn't.

Upon whose authority? (Hint: The people who encounter it.)

The Qur'an is directly God's words. The angel (Gabriel; The Holy Spirit) who isn't part of God; spoke to God, and delivered the message directly to the Messenger/Prophet at the time, and he having a miraculous memory spoke it, as others wrote it down for him.

Prove it. "Myth" and "reality" are not, essentially the same thing.

There's a difference, one is writing God's words directly from the Prophet having memorized it, while the other is just writing from your own mind and claiming it to be from inspiration.

I'd bet the Mullah's mustache that there actually is no difference.

 

[sojourner]

I think your not getting the point here the problem here is that Mohammed(saws) is a historical figure we even know how many grey hairs he had on hes beard there are over 700,000 manuscripts about him alone, the people in Arabia were at that time very detailed heck we even have some of hes belongings. Wherein we have no information regarding the people who ever wrote the Gospels so there is no comparison not to forget that the Gospels weren't written by the Apostles of jesus(pbuh).

Gee...
What a huge difference 800 years makes. At least.

 

[sojourner]

Everything in the Qur'an is directly God's words through Gabriel (Who is the Angel; Holy Spirit, Not like you and me) spoken to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Prove it.
(You can't, therefore it's an unfounded statement.)

On the other hand, The Bible does represent Christianity, and it is flawed.

At least we're honest about it...

 

[sojourner]

What the Qur'an shows clearly is that Jesus can't be part of a trinity.

What the Quran does is usurp a mythic account.

 

[sojourner]

The Bible was written by people who claimed that it was out of inspiration from God, just because they said it was out of inspiration doesn't mean that it was from God. Proof of this is actually reading the Bible, doesn't look like God's work, does it? So it's basically just people writing it hoping for people to believe that it was from God.

Translation: "blah, blah, blah -- I don't know what I'm talking about -- blah, blah, blah."

As for the Qur'an, it's completely different.

Uh, huh. I bet you've got a bridge you'd like to sell me, as well...

and is God's words. Proof that it is God's words is that it's never been changed for 1400 years.

Prove it. (You can't, as I've said at least three times now). "Not changing" isn't proof of that.

 

[sojourner]

By that logic, I can go out right now, write a book, and claim that it's truer than any other religion, because I wrote it myself as God told me to.

See the logic in that?

Oh, you mean just like Islam.

 

[F0uad]

OK. How does "one known writer" represent Divine authority any better than "several unknown authors?"

My argument was that its more reliable i am not giving someone divine authority here or asking people to accept him.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I'm not sure exactly how facitious you're trying to be, but Mormons don't believe that Joseph Smith wrote one word of the Book of Mormon.

Hi, Katzpur. I wasn't trying to be facitious. Maybe I'm just ignorant. I was under the impression that Joseph Smith wrote every word of the BOM as he translated it from the tablets. Not so?

If not, who else wrote parts of it?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

The Book of Mormon isn't a revelation from God.

That's exactly how I feel about the Quran and the Bible. Sorry.

It was written in the 1800s by a person just like you and me.

I think the Quran and the Bible were written in even more primitive times by people just like you and me.

But I'm not going to argue for that. I think the OP has asked everyone to get back on his track.

 

[Animevox]

First of all, there is no "right" religion -- unless it's "right" for you, of course.
Second, the religion is comprised of people -- ekklesia. We are flawed. Why shouldn't the religion that is comprised of us be flawed?

There is no subjective religion. It's either right or it isn't. As much as I'd like for you to believe that, it just simply isn't true.

As for you saying that Christianity is compromised of people, that is exactly right, which is why you shouldn't trust it. I would never trust a book that knows jack of what it's talking about and contradicts itself left and right.

God wouldn't confuse/mislead with a book that's supposedly the guide for mankind.

Now tell me, Why should I worship Jesus Christ if he never claimed divinity?

You still haven't gave me an answer, I want one unequivocal statement in the COMPLETE Bible where Jesus Christ HIMSELF says "I am God or worship me" You won't find none. So why should I believe he's God if he never claimed he was? According to your Bible, By definition, I'm more Christian than you because I actually follow his teachings. I respect him. But I don't worship him.

 

[Animevox]

: Wasn't your Muhammed a "fickly-subjective" human, as well?

At least he didn't contradict himself.

I would rather believe a Prophet over some people that know jack of what they're talking about.

Why don't you actually read your Bible and you'd come to realize that in it are MANY references to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

 

[tumbleweed41]

Reading through this thread, what I am getting from the OP is a demand for a presentation from the Bible where Jesus says he is God, yet there is also a rejection of the Bible as truth.

So even if it was shown unequivocally that Jesus said he is God, it can be dismissed out of hand since the only "true" revelation is the Qur'an.

So, what's the point?

 

[F0uad]

Reading through this thread, what I am getting from the OP is a demand for a presentation from the Bible where Jesus says he is God, yet there is also a rejection of the Bible as truth.

So even if it was shown unequivocally that Jesus said he is God, it can be dismissed out of hand since the only "true" revelation is the Qur'an.

So, what's the point?

The worst part is that the OP already knows that there is no such thing therefore provoking on purpose.

 

[Animevox]

no, they aren't. You have "determined" that the quran is authentic. (i, on the other hand, have "determined" that it is not.)

I haven't "determined" that it is authentic just based off of my saying. I have reasoning and logic to back up why I believe it is authentic. When I say it's "authentic" I mean factually, and you'll soon realize why it's the right religion.

You can determine that the Bible is "authentic" all you want, But it is foolish to believe a corrupted book could possibly be God's word.

upon whose authority? (hint: The people who encounter it.)

God's authority. Clear-cut evidence in your Bible that Jesus Christ (pbuh) never HIMSELF claimed divinity, and said to worship the Father, who is by definition Allah. (The One and Only God).

prove it. "myth" and "reality" are not, essentially the same thing.

According to what? You? Let me tell you this. Neither the Qur'an or Bible are myths. One is just a corrupted version of the word, while the other isn't.

All Abrahamic beliefs were RIGHT in it's time UNTIL they became altered by Man.

Islam is the ONLY Revelation that remained UNTOUCHED.

I'd bet the mullah's mustache that there actually is no difference.

Between what? You mean, The difference between authentic and determined to be authentic?

Sorry, as much as you'd like to believe that there isn't a difference, there is. One is TRYING to be authentic, while the other is FACTUALLY authentic.

There's a major difference.

Notice your wording "Determined".

By that logic, anything can be determined to be authentic.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Give me one unequivocal statement where Jesus Christ unambiguously states his own divinity.

Well, There is a Hadith which says:

Narrated Ibn Umar: "We were talking about Hajjat-ul-Wada, while the Prophet was amongst us. We did not know what Hajjat-ul-Wada' signified. The Prophet praised Allah and then mentioned Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal [anti-Christ] and described him extensively, saying "Allah did not send any prophet but that prophet warned his nation of Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal. Noah and the prophets following him warned (their people) of him. He [Al-Masih] will appear amongst you [among Muhammad's followers], and if it happens that some of his qualities may be hidden from you, but your Lord's State is clear to you and not hidden from you. The Prophet said it thrice. Verily, your Lord is not blind in one eye, while he [Ad-Dajjal] is blind in the right eye which looks like a grape bulging out [of its cluster]. No doubt! Allah has made your blood and your properties sacred to one another like the sanctity of this day of yours, in this town of yours, in this month of yours. "The Prophet added: No doubt! Haven't I conveyed Allah's Message to you?" They replied, "Yes," The Prophet said thrice, "O Allah! Be witness for it." The Prophet added, "Woe to you!, May Allah be merciful to you! Do not become infidels after me by cutting the necks [throats] of one another." -Sahih Bukhari 5:685


What does this part of it mean to you: "Verily, your Lord is not blind in one eye, while he [Ad-Dajjal] is blind in the right eye which looks like a grape bulging out".

Specially the part that says: "Verily your Lord is not blind in one eye"

It seems it is comparing the Return of Christ with Antichrist. Who is that Lord who is not blind in one eye? Allah? or Christ? Does Allah even have an eye according to Islam?

 

[Animevox]

Well, There is a Hadith which says:

Narrated Ibn Umar: "We were talking about Hajjat-ul-Wada, while the Prophet was amongst us. We did not know what Hajjat-ul-Wada' signified. The Prophet praised Allah and then mentioned Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal [anti-Christ] and described him extensively, saying "Allah did not send any prophet but that prophet warned his nation of Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal. Noah and the prophets following him warned (their people) of him. He [Al-Masih] will appear amongst you [among Muhammad's followers], and if it happens that some of his qualities may be hidden from you, but your Lord's State is clear to you and not hidden from you. The Prophet said it thrice. Verily, your Lord is not blind in one eye, while he [Ad-Dajjal] is blind in the right eye which looks like a grape bulging out [of its cluster]. No doubt! Allah has made your blood and your properties sacred to one another like the sanctity of this day of yours, in this town of yours, in this month of yours. "The Prophet added: No doubt! Haven't I conveyed Allah's Message to you?" They replied, "Yes," The Prophet said thrice, "O Allah! Be witness for it." The Prophet added, "Woe to you!, May Allah be merciful to you! Do not become infidels after me by cutting the necks [throats] of one another." -Sahih Bukhari 5:685


What does this part of it mean to you: "Verily, your Lord is not blind in one eye, while he [Ad-Dajjal] is blind in the right eye which looks like a grape bulging out".

Specially the part that says: "Verily your Lord is not blind in one eye"

It seems it is comparing the Return of Christ with Antichrist. Who is that Lord who is not blind in one eye? Allah? or Christ? Does Allah even have an eye according to Islam?

The Hadith isn't the word of God and doesn't represent Islam. Nice try!

Why don't you actually give me verse's from the Qur'an or the Bible where Jesus says to worship him? Exactly, you can't.

You won't even find it in the Bible. God is one throughout The Old Testament and into The New Testament, and Jesus Christ HIMSELF NEVER claimed Divinity.

 

[sojourner]

There is no subjective religion.

I certainly don't believe that, because there's nothing objective about religion -- nothing to stand outside of to make value judgments -- no real empirical evidence that can be checked against other known realities. AFAIK, it's all subjective, because it all deals with metaphor.

It's either right or it isn't.

Nope. Because we're talking about something that fosters meaning, and depends upon the meaning that is made, not something that is based upon known fact.

As for you saying that Christianity is compromised of people, that is exactly right, which is why you shouldn't trust it.

So... there aren't any people comprising Islam. What you're telling me is that faith lies somewhere outside human experience -- even though human beings are the only part of the creation that conceptualize Deity. IMO, you've just eliminated the "circuit" of an electrical "circuit." Nice.

I would never trust a book that knows jack of what it's talking about

How have you arrived at this conclusion -- or are you simply trying to be provocative in some sophomoric way?

and contradicts itself left and right.

There are some contradictions, but I wouldn't characterize it as "left and right." But what else would you expect from a multivalent document?

God wouldn't confuse/mislead with a book that's supposedly the guide for mankind.

Who said it was "the guide for mankind?" i certainly never said it was "the guide for mankind." I don't think it is "the guide for mankind." I think that it's the repository of written Tradition of the people of God.

Now tell me, Why should I worship Jesus Christ if he never claimed divinity?

I never said that you should.

You still haven't gave me an answer, I want one unequivocal statement in the COMPLETE Bible where Jesus Christ HIMSELF says "I am God or worship me" You won't find none. So why should I believe he's God if he never claimed he was? According to your Bible, By definition, I'm more Christian than you because I actually follow his teachings. I respect him. But I don't worship him.

"At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow..." Philippians 2.
I think it's wonderful that you're a better Christian than me. More power to ya!

 

[sojourner]

I would rather believe a Prophet over some people that know jack of what they're talking about.

Oh, you mean "some people" such as yourself?
You can't provoke me. It won't work.

Why don't you actually read your Bible and you'd come to realize that in it are MANY references to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

See your post above. If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that it is, by definition, impossible for the bible to refer to Muhammed, since none of the biblical writers knew about Muhammed (he came along HUNDREDS of years after the canon was closed).