Tell me where in the Bible does Jesus clearly say that he's God

[Shermana]

For real, how about a return to the OP? Anyone want to discuss my posts detailing how John 14:7-9 and Isaiah 9:6 and such are clearly not supportive of the Trinity even by the words of prominent Trinitarian scholars?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Hadith isn't the word of God and doesn't represent Islam. Nice try!

Why don't you actually give me verse's from the Qur'an or the Bible where Jesus says to worship him? Exactly, you can't.

Dear Animevox,

This is a Sahih Hadith, and many Moslems use Sahih Hadithes. Specially Sunni Moslems who follow the Sunnah of the Prophet.

Do you use Hadithes by the way? Or you only use Quran. Let me know so, i can find the right source for you.

 

[Katzpur]

*edit*

Wow. I've got to say that I'm really surprised by this post. Almost all of the Muslims I have ever known either personally or on this forum are much better examples of their religion than this. You could stand to learn from them.

 

[9Westy9]

The Book of Mormon isn't a revelation from God.
It was written in the 1800s by a person just like you and me.
Just because he wrote it himself doesn't make it true, and you assuming that God directed him to write it also isn't true.

By that logic, I can go out right now, write a book, and claim that it's truer than any other religion, because I wrote it myself as God told me to.

See the logic in that?

The Qur'an isn't a revelation from God.
It was written in the 600s by a person just like you and me.
Just because he wrote it himself doesn't make it true, and you assuming that God directed him to write it also isn't true.

By that logic, I can go out right now, write a book, and claim that it's truer than any other religion, because I wrote it myself as God told me to.

See the logic in that?

 

[sojourner]

I haven't "determined" that it is authentic just based off of my saying. I have reasoning and logic to back up why I believe it is authentic. When I say it's "authentic" I mean factually, and you'll soon realize why it's the right religion.

Show me those irrefutable "facts." Otherwise, your assertion is worth a goose fart on a muggy day.

You can determine that the Bible is "authentic" all you want, But it is foolish to believe a corrupted book could possibly be God's word.

Once again, for the hard-of-reading: I never claimed it to be the word of God.

God's authority.

As if. I've been worshiping God all my life, and God never imparted any authority to the Quran. Sorry.

Clear-cut evidence in your Bible that Jesus Christ (pbuh) never HIMSELF claimed divinity, and said to worship the Father, who is by definition Allah.

Yeah. Because one who knows the bible so well, that he **thinks** it mentions Muhammed, says so. Great.

According to what?

According to the definitions of the terms.

Let me tell you this. Neither the Qur'an or Bible are myths.

And I bet you've got a bridge you'd like to sell me...

One is just a corrupted version of the word, while the other isn't.

You've been fooling yourself.

All Abrahamic beliefs were RIGHT in it's time UNTIL they became altered by Man.

All Abrahamic beliefs were created by humanity.

Islam is the ONLY Revelation that remained UNTOUCHED.

...and is there a tollbooth on that bridge?

Between what? You mean, The difference between authentic and determined to be authentic?

Sorry, as much as you'd like to believe that there isn't a difference, there is. One is TRYING to be authentic, while the other is FACTUALLY authentic.

There's a major difference.

Notice your wording "Determined".

By that logic, anything can be determined to be authentic.

Judging by your posts here, you don't have a good enough handle on logic to be able to make that call with any certainty.

I don't really care what theological, historic, or reasoning turnip truck you fell off of yesterday. If you want to continue to believe what you believe, that's your business. But don't purport to tell me about Xy with any authority.

 

[sojourner]

The Book of Mormon isn't a REAL religion.

And is that bridge you're trying to hawk suspension, arch, or free span?

 

[McBell]

The worst part is that the OP already knows that there is no such thing therefore provoking on purpose.

I agree.

it is painfully obvious the OP knew what they were asking based on how the question was worded.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

*edit*

How funny. You really believe that you can tell me what is true and what is false. How very curious.

*edit*

Right. Just like the Quran and the Bible. Just guys writing books and other people believing it was true because it made them feel good.

*edit*

I'm sorry.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No, it's just that the Bible simply isn't clear, thus not being the word of God.

Dear Animevox,

In Quran there are also some verses that are not clear, and only God knows its interpretation. Does it mean, it is not from God?




"It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari)." Quran 3:7

Surat 'Ali `Imran [3:7] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????​

Moreover, the Quran confirms Injil and Torah are from God.​

 

[Animevox]

I certainly don't believe that, because there's nothing objective about religion -- nothing to stand outside of to make value judgments -- no real empirical evidence that can be checked against other known realities. AFAIK, it's all subjective, because it all deals with metaphor.

Religion HAS to be objective because if everything was subjective than anyone can have their own beliefs and still enter heaven.

Last time I checked, God doesn't work that way.

Nope. Because we're talking about something that fosters meaning, and depends upon the meaning that is made, not something that is based upon known fact.

The Qur'an does foster meaning, to worship the One and Only Almighty creator, what's not meaningful about that?

So... there aren't any people comprising Islam. What you're telling me is that faith lies somewhere outside human experience -- even though human beings are the only part of the creation that conceptualize Deity. IMO, you've just eliminated the "circuit" of an electrical "circuit." Nice.

This is what you need to know what God's word really is. You have to start by looking at the logical problems with claiming that Jesus is God, and then interpret the scriptures in a reasonable way that does not give rise to these logical problems. To say that he was God and Man at the same time is logically self-contradictory. To say he's one of a trinity is also to introduce another logical contradiction.

There are some contradictions, but I wouldn't characterize it as "left and right." But what else would you expect from a multivalent document?

At least the Qur'an doesn't contradict itself. The Religion of Islam is simple. One God, One book we follow. Most Christians don't even follow their Bible.

Who said it was "the guide for mankind?" i certainly never said it was "the guide for mankind." I don't think it is "the guide for mankind." I think that it's the repository of written Tradition of the people of God.

Key word, you "think".

"At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow..." Philippians 2.
I think it's wonderful that you're a better Christian than me. More power to ya!

In that whole chapter, Jesus is referred to as "he". Go back a few verse's, specifically Philippians 2:8-9 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name" Clearly this isn't Jesus speaking.

Do you even know who wrote Philippians?

 

[Animevox]

How funny. You really believe that you can tell me what is true and what is false. How very curious.



Right. Just like the Quran and the Bible. Just guys writing books and other people believing it was true because it made them feel good.



Actually, my own religion is the only true religion from God. All other religions are false.

I'm sorry.

Islam is not a religion made to make you feel good. It's a religion of obedience. It's a religion to worship the One and Only Almighty God. We aren't following it subjectively, we follow it because it is the MOST logical. The Qur'an is actually from God spoken to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I would rather believe a prophet with miraculous memory than a normal guy like you and me.

Have you ever even read the Qur'an? If you simply just don't believe that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) memorized God's word and spoke it, as others wrote it down, then there's nothing I can do for you.

Try reading it and you'll see how much of a tight-nit composition of a book it really is.

 

[Animevox]

First of all, there is no "right" religion -- unless it's "right" for you, of course.

Let's not get off topic. I still want you to give me a verse where Jesus Christ himself unequivocally claims divinity.

 

[sojourner]

Religion HAS to be objective because if everything was subjective than anyone can have their own beliefs and still enter heaven.

Bingo! Yahtzee! Dingdingdingdingdingding!!!

Last time I checked, God doesn't work that way.

Check again.

The Qur'an does foster meaning, to worship the One and Only Almighty creator, what's not meaningful about that?

I didn't ask you about meaning. I asked you to provide the facts that God wrote the Quran.

You have to start by looking at the logical problems with claiming that Jesus is God, and then interpret the scriptures in a reasonable way that does not give rise to these logical problems. To say that he was God and Man at the same time is logically self-contradictory. To say he's one of a trinity is also to introduce another logical contradiction.

I don't have to do any of these things. I don't waste time trying to twist the texts (or the theological constructs) into something they're not. What's logical (to me) is that I accept them for what they are -- metaphoric paradigms that make meaning for me.

Most Christians don't even follow their Bible.

How does one "follow" a bible? It's not an instruction book.

Key word, you "think".

As opposed to "key word, you 'blindly believe?'"

In that whole chapter, Jesus is referred to as "he". Go back a few verse's, specifically Philippians 2:8-9 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name" Clearly this isn't Jesus speaking.

Do you even know who wrote Philippians?

You have no idea here, do you.

 

[sojourner]

We aren't following it subjectively, we follow it because it is the MOST logical.

Uh huh. That's why it's faith-based, right? because it's logical? Mathematics is logical. Perhaps I'll start believing in that...

The Qur'an is actually from God

Yet again: Proof, plz.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Islam is not a religion made to make you feel good. It's a religion of obedience. It's a religion to worship the One and Only Almighty God.

That's what makes you feel good. Everyone wants certainty. Everyone wants to know who God really is so they can stop thinking hard about truth. It's so much easier to just trust and obey. So Muslims embrace the Quran because it makes them feel good.

But mostly they accept it because their parents accepted it, just like most other religious believers.

We aren't following it subjectively, we follow it because it is the MOST logical.

Nonsense. I am the most logical person on the planet so far as I can tell. If the Quran were logical, I would be following it by now.

The Qur'an is actually from God spoken to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

If you believe that, it doesn't bother me. But I disagree with you about it. I think of Muhammad just as you think of Joseph Smith, I guess.

I would rather believe a prophet with miraculous memory than a normal guy like you and me.

Actually you are addressing a prophet. Please watch your assumptions. And I'm sure that my intellectual powers are at least as miraculous as Mohammed's.

Anyway, God never sends actual human words down to mankind, so I'm afraid that I believe Muhammed was confused in the very best of cases.

Have you ever even read the Qur'an? If you simply just don't believe that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) memorized God's word and spoke it, as others wrote it down, then there's nothing I can do for you.

I'm pretty sure there's not much you can do for me, but I'll keep listening.

 

[sojourner]

Let's not get off topic. I still want you to give me a verse where Jesus Christ himself unequivocally claims divinity.

I never claimed that there is such a verse. You made that claim, and then put it off on me. I'm not arguing any such supernatural claims about either the bible or the Quran. You're the one chasing your tail here.

So what if there's no bible verse? Do you think that every theological idea must be explicitly stated in the bible? No wonder you're so disillusioned.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Right! Ours is a relationship-based religion. We bet our eternal salvation on Jesus, who was fully human.


BTW: Wasn't your Muhammed a "fickly-subjective" human, as well?

Even though Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was a human just like Moses(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh) - Prophets are not the same as any other human. So neither Moses, nor Jesus nor Muhammad (peace upon them all) were saying/doing what they wanted to do (out of their own whims) - rather they were doing/saying everything according to God's will.

The only difference is that, having learnt from the mistakes of the earlier Prophets' stories, the followers of Muhammad(pbuh) took great care to preserve what God told Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and/or what Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said/did and unfortunately that cannot be said for the messages of the other Prophets. And that's why we really don't know if what someone claims to be the word of God is really the word of God or not (in the Bible) - given the intermingling of so many different kinds of writings by who knows who and not to mention the contradictions and inconsistencies in the Bible.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Reading through this thread, what I am getting from the OP is a demand for a presentation from the Bible where Jesus says he is God, yet there is also a rejection of the Bible as truth.

So even if it was shown unequivocally that Jesus said he is God, it can be dismissed out of hand since the only "true" revelation is the Qur'an.

So, what's the point?

With all due respect, I do not agree. I think the point of the OP is to show that Jesus(pbuh) never claimed to be God even in the Bible as it exists today (regardless of whether it is authentic or not).

The worst part is that the OP already knows that there is no such thing therefore provoking on purpose.

Even if you know that it doesn't exist - it can be an interesting debate and a good learning experience. I myself actually never thought that someone would use some of the Biblical verses that some in this thread provided to show as proof of Jesus's divinity claim. So I had to go study them and then provide counter argument. I don't know about others but I am not here to just prove my points - I am here to learn from these debates as well. So I wouldn't be that dismissive of the OP.

Peace.

 

[Shermana]

I think this whole tangent on whose books and prophets are authentic started because someone opposed thought the Bible actually said something about Jesus being God rather than looking for the scholarly counter claims, I may be wrong though. But I think that's not necessary anymore since it's been decisively proven that none of the verses in question, even in the words of prominent Trinitarian scholars, clearly says this indisputably.

 

[sojourner]

The only difference is that, having learnt from the mistakes of the earlier Prophets' stories, the followers of Muhammad(pbuh) took great care to preserve what God told Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and/or what Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said/did and unfortunately that cannot be said for the messages of the other Prophets. And that's why we really don't know if what someone claims to be the word of God is really the word of God or not (in the Bible) - given the intermingling of so many different kinds of writings by who knows who and not to mention the contradictions and inconsistencies in the Bible.

"'Mistakes' of the earlier prophets' stories????" Inconsistencies and contradictions =/= "mistakes. They do = "how the bible was compiled and edited."