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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Here is the SDA timeline, note the 1260 prophecy is included, but they are not looking outside of Christianity to find fulfillment, they have not Considered Islam at all.

View attachment 58450

Regards Tony
Now the important part...
9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.
Whoever this was, took away the daily sacrifice and threw down the sanctuary.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”
14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

So, someone takes away the daily sacrifice and causes desolation, but after 2300 evenings and mornings the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.
When did the sanctuary get thrown down and by whom? From the year that happened, then start counting the 2300 days, years or whatever you want.
There is nothing here that has anything to do with a decree to rebuild Jerusalem. So, if this is the only chapter we read, what would you guess the starting point to start counting the years would be? I'd have to say that it must be whenever someone put a stop to the daily sacrifice. And there was someone who did that, Antiochus Epiphanes. And why is that important? Because Daniel is from the Jewish Bible. How do these prophecies fit Judaism? Was there a fulfillment of this prophecy already?

Daniel 9:25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ ...26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death... The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
Here we do have the mention of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. And from that time, 457BC, to the Anointed One is the seven 'sevens,' and the sixty-two 'sevens' but then the Anointed One is put to death.

There is nothing about starting to count the 2300 mornings and evenings from the decree in 457BC. But then, In the middle of a seven, whoever this ruler is does put a stop to the sacrifice. When is this middle of a seven? Miller has it after 31AD. Why not start counting the 2300 morning and evenings at that point?

A decree to rebuild Jerusalem has nothing to do with the time a stop to the daily sacrifice and an abomination gets set up. One is a good thing. The Jews were able to go back and rebuild their city. The other would be a time when they had a Temple and were using it to perform their rituals, and somebody put a stop to it.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
There is nothing here that has anything to do with a decree to rebuild Jerusalem. So, if this is the only chapter we read, what would you guess the starting point to start counting the years would be?

The issue may be CG that is I do not have to guess. William Miller used information he got from Biblical Scholars, Abdul'baha later confirmed his theory and gave more detail and said the rest is up to us.

I did not find my Faith by using prophecy, the study of it in relation to Baha'u'llah's Message just confirmed my Faith. I was studying what Baha'u'llah had offered, at the same time I was reading about Prophecy.

Not sure if you noted, but I did note with interest that the 457 decree was also related to Persia. That is amazing in its own right, is it not? There is too much data available to show it is way beyond a coincidence that the Bab gave a Message in Persia in the Year AH1260, Ad1844 and that Bible Prophecy can be shown to be a sound conclusion that was the year. The day and hour not being known.

But how good was that, God gave us the very year we needed to search the earth, if we choose to see if the Promise had indeed come.

As posted above, the news was coming out of Persia about the Bab starting as early as 1846, maybe earlier? Even if that news had not yet grasped what the Bab was offering. That's understandable as there was great commotion in Persia as people flocked to the Bab's teachings.

Regards Tony
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Well William Miller told the world that 1844 was the year awaited by many.


So why did they not see what they had predicted and expected?

I see He got it right.

Regards Tony
Explain the claim being made, accurately and unequivocally, then explain what objective evidence supports it. If you think I'm going to torture myself with a YouTube video dramatizing vapid platitudes, that is over 2.5 hours long you must be nuts. Just tell us what you think has been claimed, and what objective evidence you think supports the claim.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Explain the claim being made, accurately and unequivocally, then explain what objective evidence supports it. If you think I'm going to torture myself with a YouTube video dramatizing vapid platitudes, that is over 2.5 hours long you must be nuts. Just tell us what you think has been claimed, and what objective evidence you think supports the claim.
Oh c'mon, surely you have 2.5 hours to spare, lol. (I'm good for 3 minutes or less, 5 tops)
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Explain the claim being made, accurately and unequivocally, then explain what objective evidence supports it. If you think I'm going to torture myself with a YouTube video dramatizing vapid platitudes, that is over 2.5 hours long you must be nuts. Just tell us what you think has been claimed, and what objective evidence you think supports the claim.

No worries, I personally have watched it all at one time, but this time only watched a half, up to the great disappointment, as after that list its direction. So this link summarises the movie.

Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
A lot of practices are, after time, based on a misunderstanding of a Messenger given concept. Each Messenger in turn has offered the required corrections.
Yes, there is a lot of misunderstanding going on. Each messenger making "corrections" is a problem, though. It implies that all the previous religions have got some things wrong.

There are those that look to being guiding by spiritual truths, rather than being obligated to what a religion tells them. Unfortunately, the Baha'i Faith has some obligations to follow the rules and the administrative order of their religion. It's very similar to what Baha'is say about science and religion... That they go hand in hand. Science without religion heads off into materialism. And religion without science leads to superstitious beliefs.

I've met very spiritual Baha'is and very administrative Baha'is. One is very liberal in their thinking, and the other very conservative. One gets lost in love, and the other gets lost in the duties of running a religious organization.

But there is something else going on... Baha'is are supposed to "teach" the Faith. They are looking to find people that are seeking the truth. That are thirsting for what the Baha'i Faith is offering. How does a Baha'i do that on a religious forum? Threads can be started that lead people to ask about the Baha'i Faith. That ask a question to which the Baha'i Faith believes it has the answer. Like this one... Why were the Millerites disappointed? They thought Jesus was coming back but didn't see him. The Baha'i has the answer... They were looking in the wrong place and for the wrong person.

The place is Persia. And the persons were The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Okay, then what happens? People ask why do you believe that these men are who they say they are? What did they say? What are their teachings? What about the prophecies? How did they fulfill them?

Then another problem... Others have made the same claim... Why reject them and accept your prophets? You often say, "By their fruits you shall know them." But which religion and new religious movement has all good "fruit"? Baha'is are not trying to carve out a niche for themselves amongst all the other religions. They are saying that they are the religion for today. That they are destined to lead the world to peace and unity and to establish God's rule on Earth.

How's that going to be done? We never get that far. No matter what Baha'is say, they are bombarded with questions that can't easily be answered. And too often the answer makes things worse. So, why is that? I think it is because Baha'is, deep down, not only believe they are right, they "know" that they are right. People in other religions or the Atheists can never be accepted as being right. Ultimately, if it is a Baha'i teaching, that is what the truth is. No other religion has "The Truth" anymore. Baha'u'llah has come to "correct" the misinterpretations and tell us what is true and what is false.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The issue may be CG that is I do not have to guess. William Miller used information he got from Biblical Scholars, Abdul'baha later confirmed his theory and gave more detail and said the rest is up to us.

I did not find my Faith by using prophecy, the study of it in relation to Baha'u'llah's Message just confirmed my Faith. I was studying what Baha'u'llah had offered, at the same time I was reading about Prophecy.

Not sure if you noted, but I did note with interest that the 457 decree was also related to Persia. That is amazing in its own right, is it not? There is too much data available to show it is way beyond a coincidence that the Bab gave a Message in Persia in the Year AH1260, Ad1844 and that Bible Prophecy can be shown to be a sound conclusion that was the year. The day and hour not being known.

But how good was that, God gave us the very year we needed to search the earth, if
we choose to see if the Promise had indeed come.

As posted above, the news was coming out of Persia about the Bab starting as early as 1846, maybe earlier? Even if that news had not yet grasped what the Bab was offering. That's understandable as there was great commotion in Persia as people flocked to the Bab's teachings.

Regards Tony
It still doesn't seem like you've researched this out for yourself. Do you think I'm off then on what I think the verses are saying? If they say that 2300 mornings and evenings means 2300 years and that it started with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, I should just go with it? Okay, Christ came in 1844 and it was a man who took the title, The Bab, or the gate.

What? There is more? A second, second coming of Christ happened in 1863? And what verses in Daniel did Miller use to get to that date? He didn't? He missed the main prophet and only correctly predicted the year of his forerunner?

And I know about how Baha'is use Daniel to get to 1863 and Baha'u'llah. They take 1290 years and add it to 10 years before the Hegira and somehow makes it work?

But there is a problem...
Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Why start the 1290 years from anything to do with Muhammad when, again, it says from the time that abolishing and setting up stuff happens there will be 1290 days. Muhammad did not abolish anything 10 years before the Hegira. Never mind, this is what Baha'is say...

The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.​

Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.
There are references to 1,290 days in "God Passes By", on pages 110 and 151. In these passages, Shoghi Effendi confirms that the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in Baghdad, which occurred in 1863 (1280 A.H.), represents the fulfilment of the 1,290 days.

Again, how do Baha'is come up with that year to start counting? Or did they count backwards from 1863/1280 A.H.? And then figure what significant event happened 1290 lunar years before that?
 
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Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
There is nothing here that has anything to do with a decree to rebuild Jerusalem. So, if this is the only chapter we read, what would you guess the starting point to start counting the years would be? I'd have to say that it must be whenever someone put a stop to the daily sacrifice. And there was someone who did that, Antiochus Epiphanes. And why is that important? Because Daniel is from the Jewish Bible. How do these prophecies fit Judaism? Was there a fulfillment of this prophecy already?
Prophecies can have a double meaning. One nearer in time, one later in time.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Well William Miller told the world that 1844 was the year awaited by many.


So why did they not see what they had predicted and expected?

I see He got it right.

Regards Tony

Post hoc. MIllerism was a failure, but Abdul Baha adopted it because it suits the purpose. You have adopted the great disappointment to proselytise your new theology.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Post hoc. MIllerism was a failure, but Abdul Baha adopted it because it suits the purpose. You have adopted the great disappointment to proselytise your new theology.

Well that was a left field firedragon. Maybe that is the only defense you can find against such plausible interpretation?

I see it is sound fulfillment of scripture and also in using this prophecy it confirms Muhammed and Ali were foretold as well.

I see Abdul'baha shared it in the knowledge it was sound prophecy.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Well that was a left field firedragon. Maybe that is the only defense you can find against such plausible interpretation?

It is not any kind of plausible interpretation. It is a facade. Mindbogglingly imposed strange inference with no basis.

Just like the "belief in Metteya who proclaims the absurdities you pretend to have studied".

Thats why millerism failed.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
It is not any kind of plausible interpretation. It is a facade. Mindbogglingly imposed strange inference with no basis.

Just like the "belief in Metteya who proclaims the absurdities you pretend to have studied".

Thats why millerism failed.

Yet the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah have not failed, they shape the progression of humanity and therein lays the wisdom firedragon.

The Basis of the Miller prediction was a pending Messenger, there is no stronger foundation than that, as the Messenger and the Message become the standard people strive for.

The world is being shaped by these Messages.

William Miller, and people like him across the planet is one of the ways God proves the Messengers, they are the Warners, preparing the way for the Messengers who reveal the new Message, that is why that Message becomes the Woe we will face.

"We send not the messengers save as bearers of good news and warners. Those who disbelieve contend with falsehood in order to refute the Truth thereby. And they take Our revelations and that wherewith they are threatened as a jest."
(سورة الكهف, Al-Kahf, Chapter #18, Verse #56)

And make mention (O Muhammad) of the brother of A'ad when he warned his folk among the wind-curved sandhills - and verily warners came and went before and after him - saying: Serve none but Allah. Lo! I fear for you the doom of a tremendous Day.
(سورة الأحقاف, Al-Ahqaf, Chapter #46, Verse #21)

This is that tremendous Day, why would I then not choose to share what the Warners tried to tell the world?

So, those passages says it all firedragon, they add much substance to this OP.

It appears the warnings were ignored and mankind has continued to choose war before unity. The Baha'i only use the war of words and the wisdoms which are the Words of God. Swords are now plowshares, all enemies we treat as friends.

I so not see SDA movement failed, it has assisted us in understanding we need to look for God in the way God chooses to reveal his Messengers and not as we have determined God will.

All the best firedragon, regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
They make the claims and when questioned, there is a lack of evidence.

Evidence is provided. Yet not all see it in the same light.

No matter how much evidence one gives, a lot of the time the evidence needs the be seen with a different frame of reference.

People have written books on these topics with mountains of evidence and logical explanations, yet people still offer there is no evidence, or the proof has not been supplied.

Do you see what is happening here CG? One can not provide what another does not want to look for, for themselves.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Bahai is and will be harmless, as long as it will never grow large.

It will be just as harmless when it becomes a majority OB. It is the elected leaders we need to consider when it comes time to do so.

I wish you and your best half the very best of the season and a wonderful Gregorian new year.

Regards Tony
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Yet the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah have not failed, they shape the progression of humanity and therein lays the wisdom firedragon.

I dont want to make personal comments about your theology that your Gods manifestations failed. Those are just rhetoric and I cant be engaging with that.

I said millerism failed. Its based on one of the most farfetched, facades. And it existed. Thus, Abdul Baha took it, just like he took so many other things that helps his so called "universal theology". Abdul Baha's attempt at superimposing a prophecy fulfilled is worse than millerism, only masked in a passed event, not a future event so believers won't find it a failure. But its worse than millerism, different to millerism, and a mixture of many things.

Abdul Baha's prophecy is NOT millerism. It is borrowing it.
 
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