Tennessee bans lots of Drag Shows and gender-affirming care for kids

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes I also see improvements and room for more, but I don't see all of the changes in the sexual revolution of last century as necessarily good.

I say they didn't go far enough, but at least we got somewhere.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So if they added circumcision to the list you would back the bill? I agree it should be added.

I was hasty, and I apologize but I would still not back the bill.

Look, I don't understand sexual dysphoria, even though I'm gay. But I can try to think about how I would feel if my body simply did not match the person I perceive myself to be -- and I think that would be terrible. I do know that levels of suicide among such persons are much higher than others, and suicide makes you just as dead as any other method of annihilation.

What I would ask is this: instead of legislating AGAINST what anybody may do to try to help a person, a child, in such a situation, why not try to find ways that we CAN help? Isn't that a better choice?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yes I also see improvements and room for more, but I don't see all of the changes in the sexual revolution of last century as necessarily good.

But of course, you are not likely to know how many people who suffered from not being cis- and hetero- solved their problems through suicide (nobody can say for certain, but it is significant). Or through being punished up to and including death by their peers.

I don't see those things as being "necessarily good" either. Do you?

 

[Brian2]

I say they didn't go far enough, but at least we got somewhere.

I think change has to happen like that to avoid the big backlash and to check whether the change is actually going to be a good thing for society or not.
Change can be good for a church stuck in hypocrisy and thinking that it has the right to decide everything that others can and cannot do.
Imo it's God at work at times to make changes in His church which are necessary.

 

[Brian2]

But of course, you are not likely to know how many people who suffered from not being cis- and hetero- solved their problems through suicide (nobody can say for certain, but it is significant). Or through being punished up to and including death by their peers.

I don't see those things as being "necessarily good" either. Do you?

It is good to be on our way out of those days.
There is a chance of taking change too far in affirming what a confused teen might want and giving them that, only to find that they also end up regretting their decisions and being depressed and suicidal.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is good to be on our way out of those days.
There is a chance of taking change too far in affirming what a confused teen might want and giving them that, only to find that they also end up regretting their decisions and being depressed and suicidal.

Regrets are pretty rare.

 

[SomeRandom]

It is good to be on our way out of those days.
There is a chance of taking change too far in affirming what a confused teen might want and giving them that, only to find that they also end up regretting their decisions and being depressed and suicidal.

I mean to be fair, you could say that about a lot of procedures performed by teens, which we allow due to the principle of informed consent

Which is why, barring emergency medical cases, body modification is typically allowed for people aged 18 and over. (21 in some places due to the specific law.)

I could be wrong, but no where have I found any push to have that age lowered. When it comes to trans modification surgery explicitly. Except in some extreme cases, perhaps. Even then only with strict medical (including mental health) supervision.
Apologies for the sloppy phrasing.

That all said, even ignoring that aspect, we have long allowed people above the age of legal consent (which does slightly differ place to place, but can be as young as 16, depending on the procedure and local law) to alter their body in ways that are irreversible and sometimes even in extreme ways. Again, based on the principles of fully informed consent and the idea of ownership over one’s own body.

So I mean if someone, who is above the age of consent in their area, understands all about the kind of surgery used for transition purposes. Is it not their long agreed upon right to do so? It is their body after all.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That all said, even ignoring that aspect, we have long allowed people above the age of legal consent (which does slightly differ place to place, but can be as young as 16, depending on the procedure and local law) to alter their body in ways that are irreversible and sometimes even in extreme ways. Again, based on the principles of fully informed consent and the idea of ownership over one’s own body.

I've always been wildly and extremely fascinated with the idea of having my tongue split. But I've always lacked the guts to do it and I feel a piercing is enough for me, lmao.

 

[SomeRandom]

I've always been wildly and extremely fascinated with the idea of having my tongue split. But I've always lacked the guts to do it and I feel a piercing is enough for me, lmao.

I mean fair enough.
In my culture (mothers side) it’s normal to for girls to have multiple piercings in their ears. Had mine done when I was like 10 months old. My family citing religious belief/cultural tradition.
Had my seconds done after a couple of cups of “liquid courage” since I am quite the scaredy cat myself lol. I think I was about 17 ish. A part of that was admittedly wanting to fit in with my cousins who all have multiple ear and nose piercings.
Mixed bag in terms of whether or not such piercings were done due to the “cool factor” and tradition, honestly

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I mean fair enough.
In my culture (mothers side) it’s normal to for girls to have multiple piercings in their ears. Had mine done when I was like 10 months old. My family citing religious belief/cultural tradition.
Had my seconds done after a couple of cups of “liquid courage” since I am quite the scaredy cat myself lol. I think I was about 17 ish. A part of that was admittedly wanting to fit in with my cousins who all have multiple ear and nose piercings.
Mixed bag in terms of whether or not such piercings were done due to the “cool factor” and tradition, honestly

America is pretty well a very mixed bag on multiple ear piercings on if it's a girl thing or both. It's not too unusual in the more Conservative parts to see any ear piercings on a guy as a no or a sign he's gay (though it has been a long time since I've heard that one), and while certainly many do see multiple as feminine it's not unusual at all to see guys that way (even some more masculine types).
I have three in each lobe (I recently realized the blue one I had in each ear turned purple), an industrial in my left and I want several more going up around my right ear.
And I went in a different order and actually started with my lip. I had that, another on my lip, and two labrets before I got my ears (I just have my original lip now, and suppose I might do the labret again). I also have my left eye brow, tongue, and both nipples. And I want one on my noise. Then I might be done with those.

 

[Brian2]

I mean to be fair, you could say that about a lot of procedures performed by teens, which we allow due to the principle of informed consent

Which is why, barring emergency medical cases, body modification is typically allowed for people aged 18 and over. (21 in some places due to the specific law.)

I could be wrong, but no where have I found any push to have that age lowered. When it comes to trans modification surgery explicitly. Except in some extreme cases, perhaps. Even then only with strict medical (including mental health) supervision.
Apologies for the sloppy phrasing.

That all said, even ignoring that aspect, we have long allowed people above the age of legal consent (which does slightly differ place to place, but can be as young as 16, depending on the procedure and local law) to alter their body in ways that are irreversible and sometimes even in extreme ways. Again, based on the principles of fully informed consent and the idea of ownership over one’s own body.

So I mean if someone, who is above the age of consent in their area, understands all about the kind of surgery used for transition purposes. Is it not their long agreed upon right to do so? It is their body after all.

Sounds good to wait till the age of consent at least.

 

[wellwisher]

The 'people who don't conform to societal expectations of gender = dangerous for kids we must protect' is such an old chestnut of bigotry. It's been used against gay people, it was used against women during just about every wave of feminist civil action, and now it's being used specifically against transwomen. (Because the zeitgeist largely ignores transmen.)

Transphobes think drag and being trans is the same thing, and the goal is to force closets on transwomen. And it's a shame that the only way their empathy can be activated (because they've otherized trans people into nonpeople) is to show them how legislation like this hurts cisgender nonconforming people like a masculine ciswoman in a bathroom that gets accused of being a man or removal of comedies like Mrs. Doubtfire because the be story is a cisman pretending to be a ciswoman and therefore inappropriate for children.

A good parallel to gender affirming care is in athletics; body building and steroids. In both cases, of gender bending or body enhancing, there are many people who visualize themselves as different from their natural physical person. Both sets of people wish to modify their natural attributes, in favor of a science fiction enhanced illusion, that can only appear with synthetic changes, since do not occur naturally with only wishful thinking.

The main reason athletics; those haters in charge, do not allow chemical and surgical modifications, is adding performance enhancing chemicals and procedures are not healthy and can lead to medical problems and issues down the line. The gender drugs are much newer, than athletic performance enhancing drugs, so the risks are worse for synthetic gender bending care.

There is a lot of personal and peer pressure, in both cases, to perform as one visualizes. Many are willing to take the chance, since if they do not get the synthetic care and others get the opportunity, they will be at a disadvantage. If one state or their entire country bans the drugs, for either scenario, they may need to buy overseas or imports from the black market.

Almost all amateur and professional sports prohibit the use of drugs to enhance performance. I am surprised that the Left is not up in arms protecting the fantasies of the muscle head and athletes from those Right Wing haters. Why do we discriminate against adults in Pro Sports, who only wish to become better, but allow minors to get artificial drugs for sexual alterations so they can become a better them? Does this dual standard make the Left two faced with one hate face, or does their common sense, only come into play when they are detached enough to be objective?

As a compromise, I would allow both the options to get all the synthetic treatment their mental illusions think they need, even though these artificial paths are not organic or green and may cause long term problems. I would even allow steroids to be taken as early as we allow sex altering drugs, so any child can decide if he/she wishes to be a muscle head or a he/she or even both at the same time.

However, those who promote, manufacture, sell and administer these body altering drugs, in both cases, will need to sign a liability agreement, with no statute of limitation. When this goes bad, as it will, heads can roll; civil suits and criminal liability will be enforced. Right now, there is no accountability for those who gain political points and/or profit by subjecting children to treatments that are not long term tested, and are still considered treatments for pathology.

Currently, they will place the burden on the tax payers, half of which do wish any involvement in either body modification care. Maybe the Left can also sign the liability contract, so if there is an attempt to pawn this onto all the tax payers, by crooked lawyers, the Left will bear the full tax liability or help enforce the original liability agreements.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Sounds good to wait till the age of consent at least.

Don't parents have the right to make medical decisions on behalf of their minor children?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I was hasty, and I apologize but I would still not back the bill.

Look, I don't understand sexual dysphoria, even though I'm gay. But I can try to think about how I would feel if my body simply did not match the person I perceive myself to be -- and I think that would be terrible. I do know that levels of suicide among such persons are much higher than others, and suicide makes you just as dead as any other method of annihilation.

What I would ask is this: instead of legislating AGAINST what anybody may do to try to help a person, a child, in such a situation, why not try to find ways that we CAN help? Isn't that a better choice?

I agree that professional help is needed in these instances. When that professional help has the potential to cause irreversible harm the government should step in. There are some people that regret being transitioned and now are detransitioning and having many health problems because of the treatment they received as a child. I read a study that 11% of transwomen and 4% of transmen detransition. Do what you want when you are 18 but until then children should not be subjected to health care that could affect them negatively for the rest of their lives. Should detransitioning peoples voices be heard or not? Right now many are being ignored and sometimes maligned and not getting the proper healthcare they need.

 

[SomeRandom]

Sounds good to wait till the age of consent at least.

I don’t think anyone has argued otherwise.
Am I mistaken?
I mean that’s why puberty blockers are used, after all.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sounds good to wait till the age of consent at least.

Sounds a great reason for professionals who actually work with and study such things to help guide policy and for uneducated laymen to keep quiet and learn.

 

[fantome profane]

When that professional help has the potential to cause irreversible harm the government should step in.

Isn’t that what the parents or guardians are for? Why would you assume the government knows better than a parent?

I don’t understand the American attitude towards government. When we discuss something like universal healthcare on this board you always hear many Americans saying they don’t trust the government to handle the financial aspects of healthcare care. But when we discuss this issue they want the government to override parental rights.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I agree that professional help is needed in these instances. When that professional help has the potential to cause irreversible harm the government should step in. There are some people that regret being transitioned and now are detransitioning and having many health problems because of the treatment they received as a child. I read a study that 11% of transwomen and 4% of transmen detransition. Do what you want when you are 18 but until then children should not be subjected to health care that could affect them negatively for the rest of their lives. Should detransitioning peoples voices be heard or not? Right now many are being ignored and sometimes maligned and not getting the proper healthcare they need.

Which study was that? Because every study I've had puts detransitioning below 10%, and the highest included intersex people that detransitioned from their assigned and surgically reinforced sex at birth, as well as people who detransitioned but didn't have regrets, such as detransitioning due to lack of financial access to HRT, or health reasons that made HRT impossible.

Generally the regret over transitioning is three times less than your average knee surgery.

We should definitely listen to detransitioners and why most detransition. But we also should definitely not use them as politically motivated ammunition against gender affirming care for anyone, minors included. As there are also plenty of stories where trans kids say gender affirming care saved their lives.

 

[metis]

I wish those who call themselves "conservatives" would actually act as if they were truly conservatives and not tell parents and doctors what they supposedly must or must not do or read. Trump and DeSantis are not acting like conservatives but more like neo-fascists dictating largely personal choices that others supposedly must follow.

 

[fantome profane]

I wish those who call themselves "conservatives" would actually act as if they were truly conservatives and not tell parents and doctors what they supposedly must or must not do or read. Trump and DeSantis are not acting like conservatives but more like neo-fascists dictating largely personal choices that others supposedly must follow.

Wish we still had the “winner” thingamabob for posts like this.