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Tennessee passes Law, schools must display “In God We Trust”

Curious George

Veteran Member
You brought up language.
I pointed out its irrelevance.
And I'm the one missing the point?
Yes. Because you are focusing on whether or not there is a constitutional prohibition on the establishment of a language. That doesn't matter. Even if there were, or at least one that prevented any other language beyond English from being established, the phrase E pluribus unum used on coins would still not establish any such language. The relevant part here is that use of a historical phrase on coins does not establish religion.
What appears to be merely ceremonial to you, I see as
the spearhead of attempts to theocratize government.
And obviously a teacher saying "bless you" when a child sneezes is trying to indoctrinate that child.

I fail to see how using historical symbols that also have religious meaning is an attempt to theocratize the government when no intent, entanglement, or effect can be shown beyond the simple use of these symbols.
And yet, based upon original intent & upon the Constitution, the USSC has ruled
against some invocations in public school. I recall when teacher led Xian prayer
& Bible stories were the norm in school. That has ended.....mostly.
And in the case of the conspicuous display in school requirement, I agree that it has run afoul. But that is not because the school is displaying the motto "In God We Trust" but rather because of the intent, I assume is behind the display.
[/Quote]
You & I would just set the limits differently.
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Yes. The question is whose reasoning is consistent with the intent of the 1st amendment.
2 phrases...take your pick.
Each is more inclusive & more useful.
Perhaps. Yet the mention of a deity is just as historic. If it were me choosing there is no way I would choose "In God We Trust" but I recognize that is based on my opinion.
As I said, you & I would set the limits differently.
I'm less comfortable with compelled religious speech, de minimis though it be.
Does the dollar bill in your wallet or the coin in your purse somehow identify you?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I doubt it'll be challenged like that. Because saying it represents a breakdown of church state balance would open the door for the usage of the term on anything. And that's something people on both isles don't want, because the resources and time and beurocracy involved to remove the motto everywhere isn't worth it.

And I agree. Quibbling over things like this represents a uniquely American battle where overenthusiastic atheists only push Christians to be more oppositional through intolerance and inflexibility. Most Western European nations, particularly Scandanavia and the UK, manage to be more secular than the US despite not having church state separation, and having some level religious iconography.
Removing the motto does not represent an increase if liberty, just an increase of obstinence and polarized fighting.

Tl;DR, I imagine the ACLU will find something more important to do.
If intent behind a mere slogan were benign, then they wouldn't
resist with such fervor. This tells me that opposition is worthwhile.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I see no reason to conclude that the Tennessee law is constitutional. As explained in a post on another thread on the same topic, the law doesn't pass the Lemon test, the coercion test or the endorsement test:
In O'Hair v. Blumenthal (1978), federal district court dismissed a challenge to the federal statutes that established “In God We Trust” as the national motto, mandated that the motto be imprinted on currency, and prescribed criminal penalties for removal of the motto from currency. The district court, of course, cited the Ninth Circuit ruling in Aronow v. United States (1970), which had

. . . held that the "national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency 'In God We Trust' has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of a patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise." 432 F.2d at 243. From this it is easy to deduce that the Court concluded that the primary purpose of the slogan was secular; it served a secular ceremonial purpose in the obviously secular function of providing a medium of exchange. As such it is equally clear that the use of the motto on the currency or otherwise does not have a primary effect of advancing religion.​

With this language denying that the use on the motto on currency “a primary effect of advancing religion,” this district court, and the Ninth Circuit before it, indicated that the challenged laws that require the motto be imprinted on currency pass the Lemon Test.

A Fifth Circuit Per Curiam affirmed the district court's holding. The Supreme Court did not grant cert.

The Lemon Test, which has come to be employed for determining whether a statute violates the Establishment Clause, consists of 3 prongs: (1) the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; (2) the primary effect of the statute must neither advance nor inhibit religion; and (3) the statute must not result in excessive government entanglement with religion (e.g., with internal disputes within a religion or denomination). To fail in any one of these prongs renders the statute unconstitutional. (I disagree that the statutes challenged in O'Hair pass the first prong of the Lemon Test. I believe these statutes should be held unconstitutional. But my opinion means nothing.)

In any event, preceding Lemon were the rulings in Abington School District v. Schempp and Engel v. Vitale, where the Court found, respectively, that school-sponsored Bible readings and recitation of state-composed prayer violate the Establishment Clause. Note that these cases involve a direct government sponsorship or mandate. It certainly seems to me that it can be readily argued that a state law requiring the government-composed phrase “In God We Trust” to be plastered on school classroom walls runs afoul of the Establishment Clause in the same way as did the school-sponsored Bible readings and subjection to state-composed prayers. But, more than that, WTF is the “secular legislative purpose” of such a law, as required by prong (1) of the Lemon Test?

The Court has also formulated the “coercion test” and the “endorsement test” for purposes of determining Establishment Clause violations. In Newdow v. Congress (2002) (Newdow I, the last decision to rule on the merits), the Ninth Circuit availed itself of all 3 tests in analyzing the constitutionality of the 1954 law that added the words “under God” to the Pledge of Allegiance, finding this law to violate the Establishment Clause. Again, it would seem readily argued that the voluntary recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance is no more coercive than the same captive students being subjected to the phrase “In God We Trust” in every classroom. The Supreme Court reversed the Ninth Circuit opinion on grounds of Newdow's lack of standing (Newdow, suing in the capacity of next friend of his child, was the non-custodial parent of his child, and therefore lacked standing).
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yes. Because you are focusing on whether or not there is a constitutional prohibition on the establishment of a language. That doesn't matter. Even if there were, or at least one that prevented any other language beyond English from being established, the phrase E pluribus unum used on coins would still not establish any such language. The relevant part here is that use of a historical phrase on coins does not establish religion.
It doesn't matter to you.
But it does to me.
Are you old enuf to have endured teacher led prayer in public school?
To have teacher preach the evils of disbelief....that we're doomed to Hell?
Experiences color our outlook.
And obviously a teacher saying "bless you" when a child sneezes is trying to indoctrinate that child.
Trying to change the subject from state law to individual action?
I fail to see how using historical symbols that also have religious meaning is an attempt to theocratize the government when no intent, entanglement, or effect can be shown beyond the simple use of these symbols.
And in the case of the conspicuous display in school requirement, I agree that it has run afoul. But that is not because the school is displaying the motto "In God We Trust" but rather because of the intent, I assume is behind the display.
Yes. The question is whose reasoning is consistent with the intent of the 1st amendment.

Perhaps. Yet the mention of a deity is just as historic. If it were me choosing there is no way I would choose "In God We Trust" but I recognize that is based on my opinion.

Does the dollar bill in your wallet or the coin in your purse somehow identify you?
The motto doesn't identify me.
But it tells me that I'm not of this country.

Tell me....what purpose does the motto serve?
Would you say we'd be worse off without it?
Is there no better motto?
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If intent behind a mere slogan were benign, then they wouldn't
resist with such fervor. This tells me that opposition is worthwhile.
I care more about consequence than perceived (asumed) intent. And obviously the consequence of having religious iconography is not the slippery slope fallacy of theocratizing government some atheists worry it is. See: UK, Canada and Scandaavia.
Besides, 'Because it's religious' is a poor reason to eliminate something anyway. Allowing gay marriage because forbaying it hurts gay people with the way civil marriage works in our country is a much better reason than allowing gay marriage because 'its the secular thing to do.'

And clearly our founding fathers never intended a striping of religious iconography as they were comfortable in both saying the US is not a Christian nation AND using creation and Abrahamic centric language in official state documents. Even Jefferson, the most secular of the lot.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I care more about consequence than perceived (asumed) intent. And obviously the consequence of having religious iconography is not the slippery slope fallacy of theocratizing government some atheists worry it is. See: UK, Canada and Scandaavia.
Besides, 'Because it's religious' is a poor reason to eliminate something anyway. Allowing gay marriage because forbaying it hurts gay people with the way civil marriage works in our country is a much better reason than allowing gay marriage because 'its the secular thing to do.'

And clearly our founding fathers never intended a striping of religious iconography as they were comfortable in both saying the US is not a Christian nation AND using creation and Abrahamic centric language in official state documents. Even Jefferson, the most secular of the lot.
You advocate for the slogan, & I against.
Why not an even more historic slogan...an earlier one?
Clearly, they want a religious one, hence the more recent creation.

They say it's just perfunctory, ie, there's no religious meaning behind it.
The fighting is never so vicious as when the stakes are so low.
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You advocate for the slogan, & I against.
Why not an even more historical slogan?
Clearly, they want a religious one, hence the more recent one.

They say it's just perfunctory, ie, there's no religious meaning behind it.
The fighting is never so vicious as when the stakes are so low.
Specifically I advocate that the vicious fighting against the slogan is unnecessary or even harmful, as it's causing polarization and us vs. them that makes the important stuff more difficult. All over something that nets zero utility. The fighting to get it removed is doing more harm than good, imo.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Specifically I advocate that the vicious fighting against the slogan is unnecessary or even harmful, as it's causing polarization and us vs. them that makes the important stuff more difficult. All over something that nets zero utility. The fighting to get it removed is doing more harm than good, imo.
I don't see any harm in objecting to it.
It costs nothing, & has the advantage of opening some
closed eyes to there being non-Xians in the country.

The country has historically been white & heterosexual.
How about a motto which reflects this too?
It would exclude only a minority, just as "trusting in God" does.
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't see any harm in objecting to it.
It costs nothing, & has the advantage of opening some
closed eyes to there being non-Xians in the country.
Imo it costs you cooperation on more serious battles, just like in partisan politics. I doubt nobody doesn't know there are atheists in the country, as we as a demographic complain a lot about a lot of little. Re: the angry atheist
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But not in a literalistic sense otherwise Christianity would be polytheistic. The supposed connection between God and Jesus does not posit Jesus as being the exact same as God, thus the terminology used in Catholic circles at least: "the Mystery of the Trinity".

In the "NT", Jesus says he doesn't know the answer to certain questions, such as when "the end of times" would supposedly occur, so Jesus cannot be literally God. There are many other examples of things like this, btw.

IOW, same God; some different interpretations as to God's "nature"; which is very "Jewish", btw.
None of this matters. A trinitarian God, such as Christianity’s, not compatible with the God of Judaism. The nuanced definition used by Christianity (and I disagree with your characterization of it) is irrelevant. Any tri-part God can’t be the Jewish God. You are flat out wrong to say Jesus isn’t God according to Christians. According to the Nicene creed (the statement of faith which is accepted by the majority of Christians) Jesus is “very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father”. Christians, as a matter of faith, believe Jesus is literally God. Judaism rejects Jesus being God in ANY manner.

But I find it quite the definition of chutzpah for you to tell a Jew what is or isn’t Jewish.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Imo it costs you cooperation on more serious battles, just like in partisan politics. I doubt nobody doesn't know there are atheists in the country, as we as a demographic complain a lot about a lot of little. Re: the angry atheist
The angry atheist vs the conquering Christian, eh?
You argue the strategic value of giving in.
I see no cost in resisting.
Why not instead urge them to give in to the secularists?
We each pick our side.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
You brought up language.
I pointed out its irrelevance.
And I'm the one missing the point?
What appears to be merely ceremonial to you, I see as
the spearhead of attempts to theocratize government.

And yet, based upon original intent & upon the Constitution, the USSC has ruled
against some invocations in public school. I recall when teacher led Xian prayer
& Bible stories were the norm in school. That has ended.....mostly.
You & I would just set the limits differently.

2 phrases...take your pick.
Each is more inclusive & more useful.

As I said, you & I would set the limits differently.
I'm less comfortable with compelled religious speech, de minimis though it be.
I guess I would agree. We have the freedom to choose a school outside of the government school system, being it catholic, protestant, or even home schooling. The US government schools need to be basic, without religion, but also without political affiliation. It's seems the second one is "pushed" anyways.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The angry atheist vs the conquering Christian, eh?
You argue the strategic value of giving in.
I see no value in that.
Why not instead urge them to give in to the secularists?
No, I'm arguing the strategic value of picking your battles, because removing the motto would take an unnecessary amount of time, beurocracy, and burning good will for no utility. Having it does not prevent a secular nation, as evidenced, and makes us look inflexible and thin skinned.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I guess I would agree. We have the freedom to choose a school outside of the government school system, being it catholic, protestant, or even home schooling. The US government schools need to be basic, without religion, but also without political affiliation. It's seems the second one is "pushed" anyways.
A minor quibble....
The freedom to choose schooling other than public is quite limited because of the high cost.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No, I'm arguing the strategic value of picking your battles, because removing the motto would take an unnecessary amount of time, beurocracy, and burning good will for no utility. Having it does not prevent a secular nation, as evidenced, and makes us look inflexible and thin skinned.
I don't see good will being lost by advocating for a secular motto.
"We are one" is the better & far earlier motto in our country's history.
Those who prefer the newer & more exclusive religious one should be opposed.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Then you're just wrong. I don't know how much more clear I can be. How is discussing God not based in religion? How is a government stance on this by using a motto not clearly a promotion of it? Please explain your reasoning to me.



But this isn't even addressing the same argument as my objection. You're still going for the "most Americans" point. That has nothing to do with anything I am saying. That's why I refuse to bother with this point.

My objection to the motto being posted at the school has to do with the constitution, specifically with religion being promoted over non-religion by the government. The people can take up whatever religious stance they want, but the government should take no part in it as an entity of the country. Why are you not okay with discussing my objection? Doing otherwise is a straw man argument.
And then you simply say, “you’re wrong” and thrn prove that I’m not by, yet again, going back to “religion being promoted”. Just as I said you do. Seriously, what part of there is no promotion of a religion can you not understand?! The Congress passed and a President signed an Act making this the official motto. The courts have ruled there is no establishment nor promotion of religion with the motto “In God We Trust”. IOW all three branches of the U.S. government assent the this motto is Constitutional. You say it isn’t. Bully for you. Saying till you are blue the face doesn’t make it so.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Not entirely factual, either. Yes, it is "the one and only official motto" now, but has only been that since approved by Dwight Eisenhower on July 30, 1956. It appeared on one coin (two-cent piece) in 1864, not on any other money, and was only mandated for use on paper money in 1957. How many of the Framers of the Constitution were still around then to object, I ask myself. And while I understand what "accommodationism" is, it still very much seems to me that in any proper sense, this usage is an offence against the purpose behind the Establishment Clause.

By the way, when was the last time you heard that fourth verse of the Star Spangled Banner (which did not become the National Anthem until the sixth time it was introduced into Congress by John Charles Linthicum -- and even then only 2 years later, in 1931) sung?
Actually I was quite factual. We can add one more fact; “In God We Trust” is the only official motto the U.S. has ever had, not just “now”. And it makes no difference whatsoever that it only happened in 1956. That simply means that the U.S. never had an official motto before then.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Actually I was quite factual. We can add one more fact; “In God We Trust” is the only official motto the U.S. has ever had, not just “now”. And it makes no difference whatsoever that it only happened in 1956. That simply means that the U.S. never had an official motto before then.
It all depends upon how you define "official".
If it appeared on our money, I say that's official enuf.
Thus, the far superior mottoes on the Fugio Cent precede the religious slogan.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't see good will being lost by advocating for a secular motto.
"We are one" is the better & far earlier motto in our country's history.
Those who prefer the newer & more exclusive religious one should be opposed.
One of the earliest penned decelerations of national unity included 'endowed by our Creator' (Abrahamic capitalization intended) and I cannot see fighting to have it changed just because I'm not Christian as a worthy pursuit. It does not affect policy nor would being for or against any words with religious affiliation be a good reason for it or against policy anyway.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
One of the earliest penned decelerations of national unity included 'endowed by our Creator' (Abrahamic capitalization intended) and I cannot see fighting to have it changed just because I'm not Christian as a worthy pursuit. It does not affect policy nor would being for or against any words with religious affiliation be a good reason for it or against policy anyway.
With so many to pick from, why not choose the earliest & most inclusive?
Besides, I'm not expending much effort advocating for a return to the original mottoes....
Fugio Cent - Wikipedia
The religious motto didn't arrive until the following century.
 
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