"Texas State Rep. Files Bill to Let Teachers Post Ten Commandments in Classrooms"

[columbus]

I agree with you totally.

Here's where the problem comes in. Christians often can't agree upon what should be.
Several years ago, a local high school offered an elective course to juniors and seniors. It was an overview of world religions in a historical context.

The local Christians wouldn't have it. From the evangelicals objecting to any class that didn't hammer away at Jesus is Lord, to the Catholics objecting to what was taught about the history of the church, the class started such a firestorm that the school just dropped it.

In all fairness, the majority of people were fine with it. But, as usual, the vocal minority were very vocal and threatening.
Tom
ETA @shmogie

 

[columbus]

Why? I have no issue with schools teaching that there are different religious beliefs around the world, and even teaching the basics of what those belief systems are about. That easily viewed as part of an education.

@shmogie
Sorry guys.
For some reason my phone is messing up quotes.
Tom

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

As long as I am not forced to follow or live by them I have no problem at all. Even post a picture of Satan. I can turn my head or ignore them. That is what is different about atheists. They are afraid to look at something they do not believe. They are not being forced to follow any rules or become religious or anything else. But they just do not want other people to see these things either.

Have you not read my posts? I'm an atheist, and have repeatedly said I don't object to religious symbols in public (non-governmental) spaces, nor do I have any objection to teaching about all religions in schools, without advocating for just one of them.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The very first commandment says that you must worship "the Lord your God" above all other gods. Which God is being talked about? Oh yeah, the god of the Bible.

Putting a list of "commandments" from the Bible (i.e. from the Christian religion) on the wall in a public school where the very first one commands "I am the Lord your God. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me" certainly sounds like an endorsement of a specific religion to me.

How would you feel if someone wanted to plaster Quranic verses all over public school classrooms? Something tells me your tune might change.

Absolutely not. As long as I am free to follow or not follow whatever is written, I have no problem.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Have you not read my posts? I'm an atheist, and have repeatedly said I don't object to religious symbols in public (non-governmental) spaces, nor do I have any objection to teaching about all religions in schools, without advocating for just one of them.

So what difference does it make if you see something on a school or a courthouse or a supermarket? No one is forcing you to join a religion or believe some religious teaching. Exactly how are you personally harmed by something posted in a school or courthouse or city hall?

 

[Jose Fly]

So what difference does it make if you see something on a school or a courthouse or a supermarket? No one is forcing you to join a religion or believe some religious teaching. Exactly how are you personally harmed by something posted in a school or courthouse or city hall?

Look, it's not complicated. The founding fathers specifically set the federal government up to be secular. If they'd intended it to be a Christian theocracy, they very easily could have done so and the Constitution would read very, very differently.

Thus, as a secular state, it is illegal for the federal government to promote a religion, or belief over non-belief. Thus, a stand-alone 10 commandments display is illegal. You may not like that, but again....not complicated.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So what difference does it make if you see something on a school or a courthouse or a supermarket? No one is forcing you to join a religion or believe some religious teaching. Exactly how are you personally harmed by something posted in a school or courthouse or city hall?

Because I do not want my governments, at any level, which all represent the ENTIRE community that elected them, to pick and choose which belief systems they will display (and thus at least appear to support), and which they will not.

City Hall, or the Legislature, or the Court House, or the state run schoolroom, must not selectively give appearance of support for one belief system, when their community consists of all belief systems entertained by all their members.

Right now, in a public square in Toronto (Dundas Square) there are Christmas decorations along with a Menorah. The Menorah is there, of course, but just now we're also celebrating Hanukah. I happen to approve of that. There will soon be a Nativity scene as well, and that's just fine with me, too.

Where I went to school, a boys private boarding school run by Quakers, we had Christians (Catholics, Anglican, Protestant and others), Jews, Muslims and "others." My roommate was Jewish, and among my favourite people at the time. Our "holiday celebrations" mentioned both Christianity and Judaism, but were primarily secular and all-inclusive, which is still how I like things.

Please understand me. I do not wish to poop on anybody's party, and seeing others really enjoying the traditions of their various faiths makes me quite happy. I even love to participate, as best as I, an atheist, am able.

But governments, like my school, must scrupulously represent all of it constituents, without favour and without discrimination.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Look, it's not complicated. The founding fathers specifically set the federal government up to be secular. If they'd intended it to be a Christian theocracy, they very easily could have done so and the Constitution would read very, very differently.

Thus, as a secular state, it is illegal for the federal government to promote a religion, or belief over non-belief. Thus, a stand-alone 10 commandments display is illegal. You may not like that, but again....not complicated.

How exactly would you personally be harmed? Forget about law and constitution for a minute. How would you be harmed?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Because I do not want my governments, at any level, which all represent the ENTIRE community that elected them, to pick and choose which belief systems they will display (and thus at least appear to support), and which they will not.

City Hall, or the Legislature, or the Court House, or the state run schoolroom, must not selectively give appearance of support for one belief system, when their community consists of all belief systems entertained by all their members.

Right now, in a public square in Toronto (Dundas Square) there are Christmas decorations along with a Menorah. The Menorah is there, of course, but just now we're also celebrating Hanukah. I happen to approve of that. There will soon be a Nativity scene as well, and that's just fine with me, too.

Where I went to school, a boys private boarding school run by Quakers, we had Christians (Catholics, Anglican, Protestant and others), Jews, Muslims and "others." My roommate was Jewish, and among my favourite people at the time. Our "holiday celebrations" mentioned both Christianity and Judaism, but were primarily secular and all-inclusive, which is still how I like things.

Please understand me. I do not wish to poop on anybody's party, and seeing others really enjoying the traditions of their various faiths makes me quite happy. I even love to participate, as best as I, an atheist, am able.

But governments, like my school, must scrupulously represent all of it constituents, without favour and without discrimination.

I do appreciate your thoughts. Just two comments. 1 - Exactly how would you personally be harmed if a school or courthouse displayed the Ten Commandments? 2 - You say the government must scrupulously represent all constituents. I completely agree. But when any religious display is banned then government is only representing atheists who want no such displays. How does rhis represent those who would like such displays? So the government is giving prioity to one group over others.

 

[Curious George]

I do appreciate your thoughts. Just two comments. 1 - Exactly how would you personally be harmed if a school or courthouse displayed the Ten Commandments? 2 - You say the government must scrupulously represent all constituents. I completely agree. But when any religious display is banned then government is only representing atheists who want no such displays. How does rhis represent those who would like such displays? So the government is giving prioity to one group over others.

Atheist: I want secularism
You: aha! So you want atheism.
Atheist: no, I want secularism.
You: just as I thought, you want atheism. Christians are so persecuted.

 

[Jose Fly]

How exactly would you personally be harmed? Forget about law and constitution for a minute. How would you be harmed?

Just because I am not harmed by an act, that doesn't mean the act isn't illegal.

I am not personally harmed when a person buys a gun illegally, yet it's still illegal.

Would you object if a school put up a sign over the entrance that said "Gods don't exist"?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I do appreciate your thoughts. Just two comments. 1 - Exactly how would you personally be harmed if a school or courthouse displayed the Ten Commandments? 2 - You say the government must scrupulously represent all constituents. I completely agree. But when any religious display is banned then government is only representing atheists who want no such displays. How does rhis represent those who would like such displays? So the government is giving prioity to one group over others.

Now, I wonder if you know how many gods are in the Hindu pantheon. And what is the first Commandment? Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. Well, it does seem to me that the Hindu student in that classroom is being told that she is doing something sinful in believing in the gods in her pantheon, wouldn't you agree? In my country, Canada, which has a very high immigrant population, we have a very large number of Hindus.

But also, at the same time, why would I, as an atheist, have to be told every day when I went to school that I am required to worship the Christian God, and to keep his Sabbath holy?

And finally, what is it about Christians that they need to be reminded every single day about 10 simple rules? Can't they remember them? I'm an atheist, and I can remember them.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Now, I wonder if you know how many gods are in the Hindu pantheon. And what is the first Commandment? Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. Well, it does seem to me that the Hindu student in that classroom is being told that she is doing something sinful in believing in the gods in her pantheon, wouldn't you agree? In my country, Canada, which has a very high immigrant population, we have a very large number of Hindus.

But also, at the same time, why would I, as an atheist, have to be told every day when I went to school that I am required to worship the Christian God, and to keep his Sabbath holy?

And finally, what is it about Christians that they need to be reminded every single day about 10 simple rules? Can't they remember them? I'm an atheist, and I can remember them.

Again, you make some very good points. May I ask what the laws in Canade say about this subject? And I must just say this. The students are not required to follow these rules. The teacher might write "you must not chew gum in class" but some students will chew gum anyway. And what if their was a Christian cross and a Jewish Star of David side by side on the wall. Would the student feel they must convert to Christianity or become a Jew and how would they decide? For me the key word in the U S Constitution is establish. The government shall not establish religion. England has an established religion. The U S does not. This has nothing to do with putting up signs or symbols as long as the citizens or not required to accept them.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Again, you make some very good points. May I ask what the laws in Canade say about this subject? And I must just say this. The students are not required to follow these rules. The teacher might write "you must not chew gum in class" but some students will chew gum anyway. And what if their was a Christian cross and a Jewish Star of David side by side on the wall. Would the student feel they must convert to Christianity or become a Jew and how would they decide? For me the key word in the U S Constitution is establish. The government shall not establish religion. England has an established religion. The U S does not. This has nothing to do with putting up signs or symbols as long as the citizens or not required to accept them.

The Canadian Constitution says nothing about religion, except that it recognized an earlier law, The Freedom of Religion Act of 1851 giving everyone the right of "free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference," and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (included in the Constitution) freedom from discrimination based on religion. Otherwise, our Constitution is silent on religion.

Our provinces, however, have the right, under the Constitution, to create religious-based schools systems, and those are a fact of live in Canada. My province, Ontario, provides government funding to two schools systems, the public, or non-religious, and the Catholic School System.

In general, Canadians stay as much away from religious displays in government offices, except that the Legislative Assembly in the (mostly Catholic) province of Quebec, does have a prominent cross in the Assembly Chamber. Canadians, with some exceptions, of course, are not typically very religiously demonstrative, prefer to worship privately with like-minded fellow believers.

Canadians, as a rule, recognize that religious matters can cause strong feelings between fellow citizens, and therefore we try to avoid those sorts of confrontations. They're not worth it.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The Canadian Constitution says nothing about religion, except that it recognized an earlier law, The Freedom of Religion Act of 1851 giving everyone the right of "free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference," and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (included in the Constitution) freedom from discrimination based on religion. Otherwise, our Constitution is silent on religion.

Our provinces, however, have the right, under the Constitution, to create religious-based schools systems, and those are a fact of live in Canada. My province, Ontario, provides government funding to two schools systems, the public, or non-religious, and the Catholic School System.

In general, Canadians stay as much away from religious displays in government offices, except that the Legislative Assembly in the (mostly Catholic) province of Quebec, does have a prominent cross in the Assembly Chamber. Canadians, with some exceptions, of course, are not typically very religiously demonstrative, prefer to worship privately with like-minded fellow believers.

Canadians, as a rule, recognize that religious matters can cause strong feelings between fellow citizens, and therefore we try to avoid those sorts of confrontations. They're not worth it.

Yes, there is too much strife in the world. Many things are not worth arguing over. I certainly do not think government should sponsor religion but it also should not prevent the exercise of religion among those who choose to do so. Maybe we can find a solution that is fair to all. It is not worth arguing over.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes, there is too much strife in the world. Many things are not worth arguing over. I certainly do not think government should sponsor religion but it also should not prevent the exercise of religion among those who choose to do so. Maybe we can find a solution that is fair to all. It is not worth arguing over.

Here's a simple solution. Post the Ten Commandments in churches or other private property, where they belong.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yes, that's about right, everything in its place. Government is for governing (everybody), schools are for education, church, mosque, synagogue or temple, or even your own home, are where religion should be practiced. There's no particular reason that religious symbols and prayers have to be associated with learning mathematics or chemistry, nor in courts of law, or filling pot holes.