Texas - Terrible abortion law doing what Republicans said it wouldn't do

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Do you not realize that by allowing for exceptions in the case of rape/incest/less than certainty of non-viability/health of the mother are comprising on the absolute “killing innocent human life is wrong”?

Yes, so what. Life has grey areas and we need to use reason and logic to navigate through it.

The human life created in the above circumstances (rape/incest etc.) did not consent to being created and cannot consent to being terminated……and didn’t commit (and therefore cannot be responsible for) any of the circumstances of the mother becoming pregnant;
Why is it not wrong to “kill innocent life” in the circumstances that you find exceptions for?

In the case of Mrs. Cox for example. There is a no win situation. The human life in the womb is not going to survive. So in that case it is not logical to force her to have a baby that will be dead before birth or soon after birth that would negatively affect the mothers health. Same thing for a pregnant 10 year old. I can't imagine it is good for a 10 year old to birth a baby. Life sucks and suffering will happen and sometimes hard decisions need to be made. In the case of rape I would strongly encourage a rape victim to have the baby, the baby did nothing wrong, but the mother did not choose to be pregnant either so in this case I would leave it up to her.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, it always comes down to what someone thinks of the fetus. If you think the human life has a right to life you will be against abortion, if you don't view it as having a right to life then you are prochoice. Bodily autonomy is an emotional issue that prochoice people use to try to persuade others. Prolife people like myself support bodily autonomy, just not to the point where another human life is killed.

If you supported bodily autonomy you would support abortion. And no, it is not emotional. That is an extremely rational argument. You use an emotional one when you try to claim that an embryo is a human life.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

No, this is just not true. I am telling you this makes no difference at all, it doesn't matter if the fetus is just a collection of cells or a human life. No being has the right to use another human being as a life support system.

There is a famous thought experiment that illustrates this point.

Thought Experiment: The famous violinist – The Ethics Centre

The famous violinist is a thought experiment that aims to test the moral claims around abortion, by applying them in a different context.

ethics.org.au

Imagine you wake up one day in a strange room and you have no idea where you are, you discover you have tubes coming out of your body and attached to another person in the bed next to you. Some doctors come into the room and explain to you that they are part of a secret music lovers society and the person in the bed next to you is a virtuoso violinist. The violist has a horrible medical condition and will die unless you stay here attached to her. In all the world only you and your specific body can save her.

Are you morally obligated to stay there for nine months to save her life? Notice in this though experiment there is no doubt, no question that the violinist is a human life. We can add that the violinist is also innocent, she was taken by the secret music society just as you were and has been unconscious the whole time.

You can also consider if it makes any difference whether this procedure will harm you or risk your life, and you can consider the odds that this procedure has of working or failing. This are factors you can consider as to whether or not you decide to stay or detach yourself. As you consider your choice. But the real question is should you have a choice.

Do you have the right to decide for yourself if you want to stay hooked up to the violinist, or should that decision be forced on you by the government (or the secret society of music lovers.

This does not reflect the real situation of most women who are pregnant. In this scenario the mother had no say in her condition. Most pregnant women have that say. Also the person hooked up has no say in the situation, they were hooked up against their will. This does not reflect the real situation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I swear I answered this but I cannot find it. Maybe I never pressed post. I may have been thinking of this:

I think that killing human life is wrong. In an abortion it is a fact that human life is killed. A woman has a right to bodily autonomy but she does not have a right to kill human life.

Most pregnancies are a result of a choice made by the father and mother. One result of sex is pregnancy, if you engage in sex then one of the potential outcomes is pregnancy. That is a choice made by both people.

Many people say that consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy but that is like saying consent to eating poison is not consent to dying. Pregnancy is potential consequence of their actions that most men and women know before having sex.

The human life created did not consent to being created and cannot consent to being terminated.

A person that needs a kidney from someone else has no right to that kidney because the person with the kidney is not responsible for the situation. Can the person who is asked to provide their kidney kill the human life that needs the kidney? Why not? That would be equivalent.

And no, you are 100% wrong when you say it is a fact that human life is killed. The reason it is not a fact is that there are multiple definitions of what a human life is. Yes, if you pick a particular one it could be argued that way, but if you pick another abortion is not killing of a human life.

 

[fantome profane]

This does not reflect the real situation of most women who are pregnant. In this scenario the mother had no say in her condition. Most pregnant women have that say. Also the person hooked up has no say in the situation, they were hooked up against their will. This does not reflect the real situation.

So this is not just only about whether or not the fetus is a human life. The violinist is a human life, but to you that is actually not the deciding factor. For you the deciding factor is if the woman had sex. This is about control and punishment of women for having sex.

And in the case of rape, the woman did not decide to have sex, so, ok, say we make an exception in the case of rape. If the woman was raped then the mighty government will be benevolent and allow her to make a choice. Great. Moving on. Back to the violinist.

The great thing about thought experiments is that they can be tweaked.

Let's say that you were not kidnapped and forced to be hooked up to the violinist, let's say you volunteered. You are a music lover, and this is a human life, and only you can save her.

Now the doctors explain to you that this is not just a simply kidney transplant or anything like that, you will need to be hooked up to the violinist for a full nine months. So you think "it is only nine months, I can do that" and you agree, great.

Then two months into it you change your mind. Hey, maybe you were drunk when you agreed to this in the first place. Maybe something has changed, maybe something has gone wrong and the risk to your health is greater than you originally thought. It doesn't matter what your reasons are, but you change your mind.

Do you have the right to change your mind?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

And no, you are 100% wrong when you say it is a fact that human life is killed. The reason it is not a fact is that there are multiple definitions of what a human life is. Yes, if you pick a particular one it could be argued that way, but if you pick another abortion is not killing of a human life.

How is a fetus not human and how is it not alive?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

So this is not just only about whether or not the fetus is a human life. The violinist is a human life, but to you that is actually not the deciding factor. For you the deciding factor is if the woman had sex. This is about control and punishment of women for having sex.

Nope. Why do you insist on telling me what my motivations are? When you do this you lose credibility because I know you are wrong. Do you think the father has a legal obligation to support the baby once it is born? Is that punishing the father for having sex? It is not about punishment.

Let's say that you were not kidnapped and forced to be hooked up to the violinist, let's say you volunteered. You are a music lover, and this is a human life, and only you can save her.

Now the doctors explain to you that this is not just a simply kidney transplant or anything like that, you will need to be hooked up to the violinist for a full nine months. So you think "it is only nine months, I can do that" and you agree, great.

Then two months into it you change your mind. Hey, maybe you were drunk when you agreed to this in the first place. Maybe something has changed, maybe something has gone wrong and the risk to your health is greater than you originally thought. It doesn't matter what your reasons are, but you change your mind.

Do you have the right to change your mind?

No. I agreed to support the life of the violinist. I cannot just kill the violinist because I made a bad decision.

 

[fantome profane]

No. I agreed to support the life of the violinist. I cannot just kill the violinist because I made a bad decision.

And that is your ..... (wait for it) .......






choice!




I am very much pro-choice.

 

[fantome profane]

Nope. Why do you insist on telling me what my motivations are? When you do this you lose credibility because I know you are wrong.

Isn't that exactly what you did at the start of this little exchange?

No, it always comes down to what someone thinks of the fetus. If you think the human life has a right to life you will be against abortion,

I am telling you that is not true.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How is a fetus not human and how is it not alive?

You cannot even keep your own claims straight. How can anyone take you seriously? Nice attempt at a strawman.

 

[Quintessence]

When are we going to talk about sperm rights and egg rights? Because those are also human and those are also alive. Who decided that only zygote lives matter? Why aren't men punished for killing millions of humans when they masturbate? Why aren't women punished for not constantly being pregnant?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

And that is your ..... (wait for it) .......






choice!




I am very much pro-choice.

Yes it was my choice but it would also be immoral and unethical to kill a human life I chose to support. I can choose to kill my coworker, does that make it ok? A doctor during a surgery can choose to kill you does that make it right? Any woman in the US can make the choice to have an abortion, but it is immoral and unethical because you are choosing to kill a human life.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

You cannot even keep your own claims straight. How can anyone take you seriously? Nice attempt at a strawman.

What claim do I not have straight? How is a fetus not human and not life?

 

[Subduction Zone]

What claim do I not have straight? How is a fetus not human and not life?

That was not the argument. And right now you are looking as if you are being rather disingenuous at best.

EDIT: Actually a fetus is arguably not human. If you only consider "human" from a biological viewpoint then yes, it is human. But so are the skin cells I shed every day. So is the blood that I lose if I cut myself cooking. You were using the term "human life". You cannot consider them separately in that way. When you separate the two my blood needs to be protected even after it leaves my body.

You are trying to use equivocation fallacies.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

That was not the argument. And right now you are looking as if you are being rather disingenuous at best.

EDIT: Actually a fetus is arguably not human. If you only consider "human" from a biological viewpoint then yes, it is human. But so are the skin cells I shed every day. So is the blood that I lose if I cut myself cooking. You were using the term "human life". You cannot consider them separately in that way. When you separate the two my blood needs to be protected even after it leaves my body.

You are trying to use equivocation fallacies.

A skin cell has no chance of becoming a person. A fetus does.

When do you think a fetus becomes a person?

 

[Orbit]

Oh, I did? Where? Here's the post:

"I think this thread perfectly illustrates how it boils down to an issue of bodily autonomy.

A fetus doesn't have the right to use my body without my permission. Especially if it's going to cause me serious health complications.
Just like a person who needs a kidney doesn't get to hook herself up to my kidney without my consent, in order that she may stay alive. And in that case, we're talking about an actual born fully developed autonomous human being, rather than an embryo or fetus."


See above.

Believe what you want but don't vote for politicians who make terrible laws that are then enforced by other politicians who have not one iota of medical knowledge. Because that harms women's health care in a very serious way.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A skin cell has no chance of becoming a person. A fetus does.

When do you think a fetus becomes a person?

And there you said it. I cannot say when a fetus becomes a person. I would say that it is probably not until after the age that it can live on its own outside of the womb. They may not even feel pain until late in the third trimester:

Fetal Pain

Facts are important, especially when it comes to policies and discussions that impact patients. Here are the scientific facts concerning gestational development and capacity for pain.

www.acog.org

The idea of a third term elective abortion is pretty much fiction. Those procedures are expensive and if not medically necessary are not covered by insurance. By 21 weeks 99% of all abortions have already occurred. Those after that time are almost all medical abortions.. Those are women that want to have a baby, but due to health reasons, either their own or that of the fetus, they need an abortion. This Texas case is both threatening the life of the mother and if the fetus even goes full term it is very very likely to have a short painful life.

Abortions Later in Pregnancy in a Post-Dobbs Era | KFF

This brief explains why individuals may seek abortions later in pregnancy, how often these procedures occur, and the various laws which regulate access to abortions later in pregnancy across the country.

www.kff.org

If you are worried about human life being lost I would say that by any rational measure that does not happen unless medically necessary.

 

[fantome profane]

When do you think a fetus becomes a person?

When it gets a job and starts paying taxes.

 

[The Hammer]

 

[McBell]