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The 1000 year reign of Christ

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member

james2ko

Well-Known Member
no i really cant see how you read it literally. But im not going to debate it, i'll just agree to disagree (yes im giving up :D)

I think of it this way: Applying symbolism to scripture is subject to our incredibly vast and diverse imaginations. So how can Christ condemn me for interpreting His Word literally? And let's say Rev 21:1 is symbolic, I would have one heck of a good excuse to claim my ignorance. On the other hand, those who apply symbolic interpretations to plain scriptures will have some explaining to do when Christ asks them, "Why did you not just simply read and interpret what was written?"
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I think of it this way: Applying symbolism to scripture is subject to our incredibly vast and diverse imaginations. So how can Christ condemn me for interpreting His Word literally? And let's say Rev 21:1 is symbolic, I would have one heck of a good excuse to claim my ignorance. On the other hand, those who apply symbolic interpretations to plain scriptures will have some explaining to do when Christ asks them, "Why did you not just simply read and interpret what was written?"


we dont interpret scripture... scripture interprets scripture

For instance, I might have assumed the the earth would be destroyed based on a plain literal interpretation, but because of the the scriptures that show the earth is never going to be destroyed but will remain forever, we have to conclude that Peter could not have meant that the earth was going to be destroyed by fire.

And for the fact that Peter says that only the wicked will be destroyed, then im prevented from thinking that fire will devour every living thing... logically, a huge fireball engulfing the entire surface of the earth and everthing and everyone on it does not fit in that picture.

And when we do consider that many bible writers do use the 'sea' as a symbol for 'mankind' then we are led to accept that Peter may also have been using the 'sea' as a symbol in that case.

Can the earth exist without a literal ocean... no. So why would God remove an ocean which is full of amazing sea life and serves a very important ecological function. And are there any other scriptures that tell us the earth will be without an ocean? No.


all things need to be considered before applying literal interpretations or symbolic interpretations... we cant just take one verse on its own without taking others into account.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
we dont interpret scripture... scripture interprets scripture

Couldn't have said it better myself.

For instance, I might have assumed the the earth would be destroyed based on a plain literal interpretation, but because of the the scriptures that show the earth is never going to be destroyed but will remain forever, we have to conclude that Peter could not have meant that the earth was going to be destroyed by fire.

And for the fact that Peter says that only the wicked will be destroyed, then im prevented from thinking that fire will devour every living thing... logically, a huge fireball engulfing the entire surface of the earth and everthing and everyone on it does not fit in that picture.

We've been over this pegg..

And when we do consider that many bible writers do use the 'sea' as a symbol for 'mankind' then we are led to accept that Peter may also have been using the 'sea' as a symbol in that case.

Where?

Can the earth exist without a literal ocean... no. So why would God remove an ocean which is full of amazing sea life and serves a very important ecological function. And are there any other scriptures that tell us the earth will be without an ocean? No.

Because He says He will. So we must interpret the rest of the scriptures pertaining to that verse in light of that proclamation.

all things need to be considered before applying literal interpretations or symbolic interpretations... we cant just take one verse on its own without taking others into account.

I'll take my chances with the literal interpretation. As I pointed out in post 143, the odds of being right are stacked heavily in my favor.
 
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Beta

Well-Known Member
If we look at 2Pet.3v10,11,12 again it says that the heavens shall pass away with a great noise (meaning the atmosphere around the earth) and the elements melt with fervent heat(could that be the surface of the earth) and the works that are therin (human actions) shall be burned up ?
Seeing that these things shall be dissolved (it would include the wicked Mal.4v3) what manner of 'person' ought one to be in holiness and godliness (to escape that lake of fire) ? God will cleanse this earth by fire and no human flesh and blood being will ever pollute it again.
Rev.21 we see the New Jerusalem coming down from God (to the cleansed planet earth) and God will be with men - spirit-born humans converted from flesh to spirit. :) ?
 

stevehauk

New Member
you interpretation implies that every inch of the earth will be burned up which would destroy all plant and animal life indiscriminately

The scriptures clearly show that there will be many survivors... so this fire could not be meant literally as no human, good or bad, would survive such a fire. Besides, there is no reason for God to go to such lengths to destroy also the heavens....there is nothing there would need to be destroyed - wicked people (who the context is talking about) do not live in heavens or the atmosphere above the earth

sorry, i just dont think you should be reading this verse literally.

Pegg you are right, it is metaphoric. You uncovered much with the above statements you made. One way to prove it's metaphoric is to look at a few key words, like the word "elements" Peter uses.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

It's verifiably not elements like soil, metals, minerals, etc. It cannot be, just look how it is used elsewhere. Here the same Greek word for ELEMENTS is used:

Gal 4:3 So we also, when we were infants, we were under the elements of the world, being enslaved.

AND...

Gal 4:9 But now, knowing God, but rather being known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and poor elements to which you desire again to slave anew?

AND SO ON...

Col 2:8 Watch that there not be one robbing you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementsof the world, and not according to Christ.

AND SO ON...

So we do NOT have to agree to disagree as you put it. That's how we came up with some 30,000+ denominations!!

Oh and consequently we have passed this insanely confused millenial period.
 

stevehauk

New Member
you interpretation implies that every inch of the earth will be burned up which would destroy all plant and animal life indiscriminately

The scriptures clearly show that there will be many survivors... so this fire could not be meant literally as no human, good or bad, would survive such a fire. Besides, there is no reason for God to go to such lengths to destroy also the heavens....there is nothing there would need to be destroyed - wicked people (who the context is talking about) do not live in heavens or the atmosphere above the earth

sorry, i just dont think you should be reading this verse literally.

Pegg you are right, it is metaphoric. You uncovered much with the above statements you made. One way to prove it's metaphoric is to look at a few key words, like the word "elements" Peter uses.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

It's verifiably not elements like soil, metals, minerals, etc. It cannot be, just look how it is used elsewhere. Here the same Greek word for ELEMENTS is used:

Gal 4:3 So we also, when we were infants, we were under the elements of the world, being enslaved.

AND...

Gal 4:9 But now, knowing God, but rather being known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and poor elements to which you desire again to slave anew?

AND SO ON...

Col 2:8 Watch that there not be one robbing you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ.

AND SO ON...

So we do NOT have to agree to disagree as you put it. That's how we came up with some 30,000+ denominations!!

So you do NOT have to agree to disagree, that's not fighting the good fight, truth must prevail. That's why we have some 30,000+ denominations in utter confusion!! The last post i did didn't seem to post. I also said this insanely misunderstood millenium which ties right into this, is also over.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Are there any Christians here on the forums who believe Christ will physically reign a literal 1000 years on earth before it is destroyed? Can anyone here tell me where this idea comes from? Please provide scripture if applicable.

Quite the opposite: Not fleshly rule on earth. Earth not destroyed.

Christ's reign is heavenly. God's kingdom is a heavenly kingdom.
Christ and his holy ones [saints] rule from heaven.
Dan 7vs13,14;18,27; Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10.
It is heavenly Mt. Zion not earthly
Jerusalem 'above' is mother.- Gal 4v26
Earthly Jerusalem was the earthly seat of government
Heavenly Jerusalem is the heavenly seat of government.
The world [earth] sees Jesus no more.- John 14v19

The earth abides forever. -Ecc 1v4 B; Isaiah 45v18; Psalm 78v69 B
Earth is not destroyed.
Wicked are destroyed.
Psalm 92v7; 37vs11,29,38; Proverbs 2vs21,22; 10v30; 21v18
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One

i already posted these verses earlier...here they are again.


Daniel described four “beasts” that came up “out of the sea” which the angel translated to be cirtain kings who ruled. Daniel 7:2, 3, 17, 23... that these kings came from the 'sea', obviously meant they came from the sea of mankind.

Isaiah 57:20 20 “But the wicked are like the sea..."
Habakkuk also likened mankind to the creatures of the sea Hab 1:14 And [why] do you make earthling man like the fishes of the sea

But even without these scriptures I can prove to you that the 'sea' Peter speaks of is people... In Johns vision in revelation the angle interpreted for John and it said

Rev 17:15 And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues"

So scripture interprets scripture.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One

So we do NOT have to agree to disagree as you put it. That's how we came up with some 30,000+ denominations!!


yes you are so right... its the my catchphrase when i cant be bothered explaining it any more.

i just get to the point sometimes when I feel that no amount of explanation is going to help some people to see it

and if they dont want to see it, then they will never see it. :D

But as you can see, if they ask for clarification, i'm always ready to provide more :)
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
These are obvious similes Pegg. This is evident by the verb "like". Remember, literal until proven otherwise. These are good examples that prove otherwise. Now compare your verses above to the one in question:
Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
A simile is identified by the words "like", "as", or "than". No indication whatsoever Rev 21:1 is anything but literal. Here's another simile:
Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.​
See the difference?
And I agree. This is a millenial prophecy. The seas will still be around during the millenium. They will disappear sometime after the millenial reign when the New Heavens and New Earth are set up, as indicated by the chronology of Rev 20-21.

What 'sea' of Rev 21v1? Isaiah 57v20 connects 'sea' to the 'wicked'.
The troubled sea of wicked mankind will be no more.
Jesus will have subjects from sea to sea...to ends of the earth.
-Psalm 72v8; Zechariah 9v10

Why wouldn't the sea be around after the millennium ?
The earth abides forever. Ecc 1v4 B
There are three heavens and earths mentioned at 2nd Peter chapter 3:

Verse 5 mentions the heavens and earth of 'old' or Noah's day.
[only wicked destroyed then. Only wicked gone again. Psalm 92v7.
Verse 7 mentions the heavens and earth of 'now' or from Noah's day til now.
Verse 13 mentions the 'new' heavens and earth.

Surely God is not going to destroy his home. -Hebrews 9v24.
There is nothing wrong with planet earth itself.
But the heavens surrounding the earth, and the earth will be 'new' in that righteousness will dwell on earth.

All this will be in fulfillment to the promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed.
Blessed with healing or curing of the nations not destruction.
-Rev 22v2; Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Pegg you are right, it is metaphoric. You uncovered much with the above statements you made. One way to prove it's metaphoric is to look at a few key words, like the word "elements" Peter uses.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

It's verifiably not elements like soil, metals, minerals, etc. It cannot be, just look how it is used elsewhere. Here the same Greek word for ELEMENTS is used:

Gal 4:3 So we also, when we were infants, we were under the elements of the world, being enslaved.

AND...

Gal 4:9 But now, knowing God, but rather being known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and poor elements to which you desire again to slave anew?

AND SO ON...

Col 2:8 Watch that there not be one robbing you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ.

AND SO ON...

So we do NOT have to agree to disagree as you put it. That's how we came up with some 30,000+ denominations!!

So you do NOT have to agree to disagree, that's not fighting the good fight, truth must prevail. That's why we have some 30,000+ denominations in utter confusion!! The last post i did didn't seem to post. I also said this insanely misunderstood millenium which ties right into this, is also over.

Why address Pegg, when it was obviously referring to my post. You can address me directly I wont bite, unless you disagree :D

The word "element", like many words in scripture, has multiple meanings. It can refer to a principle as in "element of surprise" or to a component or substance as in the "Periodic Table of Elements". Notice Thayer's Lexicon results:

1) any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal
a) the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds
b) the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe
c) the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside.
d) the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline
1) i.e. of mathematics, Euclid's geometry

The context of 2 Pet 3 obviously calls for definition B. The three verses you presented would better fit definition D. The NLT and similarly the NIV correctly translates "elements" in your 3 verses this way:

Gal 4:3 And that's the way it was with us before Christ came. We were like children; we were slaves to the basic spiritual principles of this world.

Gal 4:9 So now that you know God (or should I say, now that God knows you), why do you want to go back again and become slaves once more to the weak and useless spiritual principles of this world?

Col 2:8 Don't let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powersof this world, rather than from Christ.​

Now notice 2 Pet 3:10,12 in the NLT:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.

2Pe 3:12 looking forward to the day of God and hurrying it along. On that day, He will set the heavens on fire, and the elementswill melt away in the flames.

The translators left "elements" unchanged because "spiritual powers or principles" does not make any sense in this context. But the "elements" which make up our material world does!!
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
i already posted these verses earlier...here they are again.

Daniel described four “beasts” that came up “out of the sea” which the angel translated to be cirtain kings who ruled. Daniel 7:2, 3, 17, 23... that these kings came from the 'sea', obviously meant they came from the sea of mankind.
Isaiah 57:20 20 “But the wicked are like the sea..."
Habakkuk also likened mankind to the creatures of the sea Hab 1:14 And [why] do you make earthling man like the fishes of the sea

Again these are obvious metaphors which you are using as a blanket to cover every scripture with the word sea. This is misleading and will result in many misinterpretations.

And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues[/COLOR]"

The angel is simply explaining the meaning of a particular vision. In no way does this indicate we apply this meaning to other scriptures. For example, The book of Genesis pictures satan as a serpent. Would we then say every serpent mentioned in scripture is symbolic of satan? Of course not. Because in Num 21:7-9 God commanded Moses to set up a replica of a serpent, which was actually symbollic of Jesus Christ! (John 3:14-15), so everyone who looked at it was healed!

In like manner, your "sea" metaphor cannot apply in every case. Especially not in Rev 21:1.

So scripture interprets scripture.

But we must be careful not to apply metaphors to literal verses. Do a simple search in an online bible for the word "sea", just in the book of revelation. As you read the verse, replace the word sea with "mankind". For the exception of the verses you mentioned above and Rev 13:1, you'll see it just doesn't make any sense.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
What 'sea' of Rev 21v1? Isaiah 57v20 connects 'sea' to the 'wicked'.
The troubled sea of wicked mankind will be no more.
Jesus will have subjects from sea to sea...to ends of the earth.
-Psalm 72v8; Zechariah 9v10

Why wouldn't the sea be around after the millennium ?
The earth abides forever. Ecc 1v4 B
There are three heavens and earths mentioned at 2nd Peter chapter 3:

Verse 5 mentions the heavens and earth of 'old' or Noah's day.
[only wicked destroyed then. Only wicked gone again. Psalm 92v7.
Verse 7 mentions the heavens and earth of 'now' or from Noah's day til now.
Verse 13 mentions the 'new' heavens and earth.

Surely God is not going to destroy his home. -Hebrews 9v24.
There is nothing wrong with planet earth itself.
But the heavens surrounding the earth, and the earth will be 'new' in that righteousness will dwell on earth.

All this will be in fulfillment to the promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed.
Blessed with healing or curing of the nations not destruction.
-Rev 22v2; Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18.

I discussed this in detail with Pegg. Read the thread starting from post#115.
 
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Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Upon casual reading of this verse, one can conclude that the kingdom of God is here with us now, either in the form of the Church or “in the hearts of men.” As sincere and as noble this belief may be, it does not come from the Bible. To correctly interpret this verse, we need to be reminded who Christ was addressing. The first part of verse 20 gives the answer: " And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said..." Christ was talking to the Pharisees--not to His disciples! The Pharisees asked Him, "When will your kingdom come?"

His answer: " The kingdom of god is within you". Could Christ have meant that his kingdom was within the Pharisees--men He called "hypocrites" and "blind guides", "who were full of extortion and excess," who were like "whitewashed tombs, which appeared beautiful outward, but...within [were] full of dead mens bones, and all uncleanness" (Matt 23:21, 23-27)?

A careful study will reveal the phrase “within you” is a mistranslation. The New King James margin says, “in your midst.” The New English Bible says, “is among you.” The Revised Standard Version says, “in the midst of you.” Christ was telling these carnal men that His kingdom was in their presence. Christ was referring to Himself. He represented God’s kingdom—His government. While Jesus was a flesh and blood man, He was also the Messiah, born to become a king. He never sinned or went against His Father’s will. He was the perfect representative of God’s government.

Jesus was neither the Messiah nor a king in Israel. As far as a king is concerned, you may check the whole History of Israel. There was never a king called Jesus or Yeshua. As for being the Messiah, this cannot be an individual. An individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Are we to expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. According to Jeremiah 31:35-37 as long as the sun is in the skies for a light by day and the moon and stars for lights by night, Israel will remain as a People before the Lord forever. The name of the Messiah is Immanuel, which means God with us in the world. And Isaiah identifies Immanuel as Judah; obviously, the Jewish People. (Isa. 8:8)
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Jesus was neither the Messiah nor a king in Israel. As far as a king is concerned, you may check the whole History of Israel. There was never a king called Jesus or Yeshua. As for being the Messiah, this cannot be an individual. An individual is born, lives his span of life, and eventually dies. Are we to expect a Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. According to Jeremiah 31:35-37 as long as the sun is in the skies for a light by day and the moon and stars for lights by night, Israel will remain as a People before the Lord forever. The name of the Messiah is Immanuel, which means God with us in the world. And Isaiah identifies Immanuel as Judah; obviously, the Jewish People. (Isa. 8:8)

This thread inherently proposes Jesus as the Messiah and discusses His prophesied reign. Rejecting His Messiahship is irrelevant to the discussion. If you want to discuss whether or not He is the Messiah start another thread.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.A simile is identified by the words "like", "as", or "than". No indication whatsoever Rev 21:1 is anything but literal. Here's another simile:
Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.​
See the difference?
And I agree. This is a millenial prophecy. The seas will still be around during the millenium. They will disappear sometime after the millenial reign when the New Heavens and New Earth are set up, as indicated by the chronology of Rev 20-21.
Revelation is written in highly-vivid word pictures not necessarily chronology of the happy climax of Rev 20-22.

Doesn't Isaiah 57v20 liken the wicked to a restless or troubled sea?
So the 'sea' that will be no more will be the wicked sea of mankind.
Psalm 92v7

Just like the waters of Rev 17v1 according to verse 15 don't the waters mean people and not literal water?

Doesn't Jesus have subjects from sea to sea to the ends of the earth according to Psalm 72v8 ?

Isn't it Jesus who is the one described by Zechariah [9vs9,10] whose dominion will be from sea to sea......

Since the earth abides forever- Ecc 1v4 B, then it is not the oceans or literal sea that will be removed but the wicked such as those of Proverbs 2vs21,22.
Do you notice who will remain in those verses?
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Revelation is written in highly-vivid word pictures not necessarily chronology of the happy climax of Rev 20-22.

If you're uncertain about its contents and chronology, I suggest you refrain from studying it:

Rev 22:18-19 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Doesn't Isaiah 57v20 liken the wicked to a restless or troubled sea? So the 'sea' that will be no more will be the wicked sea of mankind. Psalm 92v7....

But we must be careful not to apply metaphors to literal verses. Do a simple search in an online bible for the word "sea" only in the book of Revelation. As you read the passages, replace the word sea with "mankind" or people. Notice how it doesn't make sense. Now, without prejudice, do the same thing but this time interpret the word "sea" literally. You'll notice it makes the meaning so much clearer. In the verses where metaphor is implied, for example, Rev 13:1 and Rev 17:1, you'll notice in both of these passages how other scriptures point out their literal meaning (Dan 7:23-24 and Rev 17:15 respectively) There's no guess work, it just involves some digging. This is a true example of how scripture interprets scripture.

Just like the waters of Rev 17v1 according to verse 15 don't the waters mean people and not literal water?

Yes it does. But as the exercise above proves, applying the same symbolism to every passage with the word sea would be poor exegesis and result in misinterpretation and misapplication of the text.

Doesn't Jesus have subjects from sea to sea to the ends of the earth according to Psalm 72v8 ? Isn't it Jesus who is the one described by Zechariah [9vs9,10] whose dominion will be from sea to sea.....

These are obvious metaphors which illustrates Christ's all-encompassing 1000 yr reign throughout the whole earth. Does this give us permission to take this metaphor and apply it to every scripture containing the word sea?

For example, The book of Genesis symbolically pictures satan as a serpent. Would we then say every serpent mentioned in scripture is symbolic of satan? Of course not. Because in Num 21:7-9 God commanded Moses to set up a replica of a serpent, which was actually symbollic of Jesus Christ! (John 3:14-15), In like manner, your "sea" metaphor cannot apply in every case.

This is a another example of allowing scripture to interpret scripture. I didn't have to read anything into the verses or apply any of my own preconceived notions or beliefs because the meaning was found elsewhere.

Since the earth abides forever- Ecc 1v4 B, then it is not the oceans or literal sea that will be removed but the wicked such as those of Proverbs 2vs21,22 Do you notice who will remain in those verses?

The earth will abide forever but according to Mat 24:35; 1 Pe 3:10-12; and Heb 1:10-12, not in its current form or state.

As Christ implied in Mat 24:35, the current state of the heavens and earth will "pass away" [Greek meaning- "continue for a time" same word is used in Rev 21:1], This implies the heavens and earth will "change" as stated in Heb 1:12. This will involve burning up the contents [elements] of the surface of the current earth including the oceans (Rev 21:1) which science tells us will naturally cause the elimination of the atmosphere [heavens]. These cataclysmic changes will make it impossible for the existence of physical life and pave the way for the New Heavens and New Earth which only righteous spirit beings will inhabit!

If you think about it, both views are correct! The surface of the old heavens and earth will be purged or destroyed (1Pe 3:10-12) only to make way for the new and improved heavens and earth which will be designed to last forever! (Ecc 1:4)
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
If you think about it, both views are correct! The surface of the old heavens and earth will be purged or destroyed (1Pe 3:10-12) only to make way for the new and improved heavens and earth which will be designed to last forever! (Ecc 1:4)
Indeed , man has polluted this earth to a hellish deep level and God will cleanse it accordingly with fire so nothing remains to remind him of it. He is not about to build a new world on human decadence.:no:
 
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