The 144,000 and the "Rapture" (Christians only)

[YoursTrue]

"144,000" could not have been written as such because the highest number back during Jesus' time was "1000", thus anything beyond that has to use other means.

Some Christian theologians believe the number may originally have been written as 12 12's 1000's, which could translate out to "holiness upon completion in numbers too high to count". "12" is a holy number in Hebrew, and it is also considered a number of completion (12 Tribes...), and "1000" would stand for great numbers if this hypothesis is correct.

So, if we put it all together, what the 144,000 could stand for is "a holy and complete people in numbers too great to count thus going to heaven". Is this the way it was meant? I have no clue.

I would think your priest would speak for the catholic "church," as to what various symbols mean. I'm surprised you have no clue as to what it means. I don't know why you don't think your priest would have the official answer. Or maybe the church has no idea either.

 

[YoursTrue]

Coveting or desiring is the whole problem with our fleshy nature. It's the very heart or root of all evil. And no one can see it in another, except God:

The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is desperately sick: who can know it? Jer 17:9

" I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.

There is nothing more sick then man's deceitful heart. Not even the spurious devil of Christianity

It's obvious that Eve wanted power. But there was a big test put before her by the devil. She failed the test. Adam knew the restriction before that, he told Eve not to eat from the tree. Agreed that the heart is treacherous and that is why God wants us to pay attention to him and pray a lot. One reason is that we inherit the seeds of rebelliousness from Adam and Eve. We cannot understand everything. At least I cannot. Especially now, in our short lifetimes. One 'day' we can live forever and so we will understand more. Still not everything. The fact that Jesus was resurrected shows God's approval of him and his choices, having rejected the Devil.

 

[Clara Tea]

This discussion has been transferred from another forum.



The 144,000 are seen with the Lamb on Mount Zion, (which pictures the seat of God's worship in heaven, not any earthly geographical location as Jesus indicated in John 4:21) whereas a "great crowd" are seen as surviving the great tribulation which occurs on earth. (Revelation 14:1; Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14)

To be "firstfruits" they have to be the first and best of a crop. The "first resurrection" is for those chosen to rule with Christ. (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:16)



All of those redeemed from among mankind have been "bought with a price"....the precious blood of Jesus Christ. That includes those of the 144,000 and the "great crowd".

The "virginity" of the chosen ones is not physical, since many of them have been married...this is a spiritual virginity, just as Israel's excursions into false worship was referred to by God as "adultery"....unfaithfulness.

Only those who are part of the "first resurrection" are raised to immortal spirit life. It is God who chooses them, and he anoints them with his spirit.



The devil has an empire of false religion so as to cater for all the human race in order to direct worship away from the true God, and picked up by the pretender, satan. The order from Jehovah to "get out of Babylon the great" is a command to leave all forms of false worship.....but the most reprehensible part of the devil's empire is Christendom, because they represent the "weeds" of Jesus parable.....a counterfeit "Christianity" that has ensnared the majority of those who identify as "Christians". Most have no idea that what they have been led to believe is not true....it is a complete departure from what Jesus taught.



What you refer to as "the rapture" is the transformation of the chosen ones from human form to spirit creatures. When does this take place?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.....
"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words."

Only with Christ's return do these events take place....so no human went to heaven until Jesus came back to take them "home". (John 14:2-4) Has Jesus returned already? Has the "first resurrection" already taken place? Is the "rapture" a separate event? How does Jesus "bring with him" those who have experienced the "first resurrection" if he has not yet arrived?



The sign that Jesus gave in Matthew 24:3-14 was given to mark his "presence" (parousia) not his "coming".
Why is that significant? Because Jesus' "presence" needed a "sign" to show that it had taken place....you don't need a "sign" for something obvious.

At Acts 1:11, the angels who appeared at Jesus' ascension said.....“Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.” How many saw Jesus departure? Only his apostles, so when he was to return "in the same manner", again it was not to be a public event, but only recognised by his anointed ones.

If Jesus' "parousia" was a separate event to his "coming" as judge to execute the wicked, (indicating a timeframe for all of the features of the "sign" to be observed, and for the preaching of "the good news of the kingdom" to be completed. Matthew 24:14) then the first resurrection has already taken place, and when the final part of these days comes, culminating in the "end" of the present system of things, then the "rapture" or the transformation of the remaining ones of the anointed, will take place and the Kingdom will "come" in a very real way make it possible for God's will to "be done on earth as it is in heaven". (Daniel 2:44)

 

[Clara Tea]

Revelation 7:4 (144,000 = 12,000 Jews from each of 12 tribes of Jews) who will ascend to heaven.



Revelation 14:1 (name of God and Christ written on foreheads).



About the forehead writing: Bar Mitzvas involve reading prayers (to let God in), and a tefillin (leather box containing prayer papers). That tefillin is strapped to the forehead, and another one is strapped to the left arm (intentionally near the heart). Only Jews have this forehead writing (with a tefillin). So, Revelation 14:1 describes Messianic Jews (who accept both their Jewish roots and Christ, who had been predicted as the Messiah by Jewish prophecy).



Revelation 14:2: Sound of loud rushing waters (This is the voice of God, coming from the many spirits within God that God is composed of. Almost all of those spirits are good, and they have had a long time with each other, so they all agree and speak as one. Some spirits in God are not good, so God gives them free will, and puts a tiny piece of himself (spirit) into each human, to let that spirit guide the human to heaven or hell....a means of purifying God).



Revelation 14:3: Only the 144,000 could understand the song (probably because it was in Hebrew).



Revelation 14:8 ("Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."). This "Babylon the Great" is also called the "Whore of Babylon" in Revelation 17:18, and is described as "the great city that rules over the kings of the earth." In other words, the most powerful city in the world has attacked Babylon, Iraq, defeated it, occupied it, and, finally, corrupted it. It is this corruption that gives it the name "Whore." Revelation 17:4 describes this most powerful nation in the world that attacked Iraq as wealthy (flaunting wealth), clad in purple and scarlet, glittering with gold, precious stones, and pearls. The mother of the beast is said to be clad in a simple pearl necklace. Revelation 17:3 says that this Whore of Babylon (most powerful nation in the world that attacked Babylon, Iraq). Revelation 17:12 (form a coalition, in mere hours, of many nations, and some factions that are not yet nations) to fight Babylon, Iraq.

 

[Clara Tea]

This discussion has been transferred from another forum.



The 144,000 are seen with the Lamb on Mount Zion, (which pictures the seat of God's worship in heaven, not any earthly geographical location as Jesus indicated in John 4:21) whereas a "great crowd" are seen as surviving the great tribulation which occurs on earth. (Revelation 14:1; Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14)

To be "firstfruits" they have to be the first and best of a crop. The "first resurrection" is for those chosen to rule with Christ. (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:16)



All of those redeemed from among mankind have been "bought with a price"....the precious blood of Jesus Christ. That includes those of the 144,000 and the "great crowd".

The "virginity" of the chosen ones is not physical, since many of them have been married...this is a spiritual virginity, just as Israel's excursions into false worship was referred to by God as "adultery"....unfaithfulness.

Only those who are part of the "first resurrection" are raised to immortal spirit life. It is God who chooses them, and he anoints them with his spirit.



The devil has an empire of false religion so as to cater for all the human race in order to direct worship away from the true God, and picked up by the pretender, satan. The order from Jehovah to "get out of Babylon the great" is a command to leave all forms of false worship.....but the most reprehensible part of the devil's empire is Christendom, because they represent the "weeds" of Jesus parable.....a counterfeit "Christianity" that has ensnared the majority of those who identify as "Christians". Most have no idea that what they have been led to believe is not true....it is a complete departure from what Jesus taught.



What you refer to as "the rapture" is the transformation of the chosen ones from human form to spirit creatures. When does this take place?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.....
"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words."

Only with Christ's return do these events take place....so no human went to heaven until Jesus came back to take them "home". (John 14:2-4) Has Jesus returned already? Has the "first resurrection" already taken place? Is the "rapture" a separate event? How does Jesus "bring with him" those who have experienced the "first resurrection" if he has not yet arrived?



The sign that Jesus gave in Matthew 24:3-14 was given to mark his "presence" (parousia) not his "coming".
Why is that significant? Because Jesus' "presence" needed a "sign" to show that it had taken place....you don't need a "sign" for something obvious.

At Acts 1:11, the angels who appeared at Jesus' ascension said.....“Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.” How many saw Jesus departure? Only his apostles, so when he was to return "in the same manner", again it was not to be a public event, but only recognised by his anointed ones.

If Jesus' "parousia" was a separate event to his "coming" as judge to execute the wicked, (indicating a timeframe for all of the features of the "sign" to be observed, and for the preaching of "the good news of the kingdom" to be completed. Matthew 24:14) then the first resurrection has already taken place, and when the final part of these days comes, culminating in the "end" of the present system of things, then the "rapture" or the transformation of the remaining ones of the anointed, will take place and the Kingdom will "come" in a very real way make it possible for God's will to "be done on earth as it is in heaven". (Daniel 2:44)

 

[Clara Tea]

This discussion has been transferred from another forum.



The 144,000 are seen with the Lamb on Mount Zion, (which pictures the seat of God's worship in heaven, not any earthly geographical location as Jesus indicated in John 4:21) whereas a "great crowd" are seen as surviving the great tribulation which occurs on earth. (Revelation 14:1; Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14)

To be "firstfruits" they have to be the first and best of a crop. The "first resurrection" is for those chosen to rule with Christ. (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:16)



All of those redeemed from among mankind have been "bought with a price"....the precious blood of Jesus Christ. That includes those of the 144,000 and the "great crowd".

The "virginity" of the chosen ones is not physical, since many of them have been married...this is a spiritual virginity, just as Israel's excursions into false worship was referred to by God as "adultery"....unfaithfulness.

Only those who are part of the "first resurrection" are raised to immortal spirit life. It is God who chooses them, and he anoints them with his spirit.



The devil has an empire of false religion so as to cater for all the human race in order to direct worship away from the true God, and picked up by the pretender, satan. The order from Jehovah to "get out of Babylon the great" is a command to leave all forms of false worship.....but the most reprehensible part of the devil's empire is Christendom, because they represent the "weeds" of Jesus parable.....a counterfeit "Christianity" that has ensnared the majority of those who identify as "Christians". Most have no idea that what they have been led to believe is not true....it is a complete departure from what Jesus taught.



What you refer to as "the rapture" is the transformation of the chosen ones from human form to spirit creatures. When does this take place?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.....
"Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words."

Only with Christ's return do these events take place....so no human went to heaven until Jesus came back to take them "home". (John 14:2-4) Has Jesus returned already? Has the "first resurrection" already taken place? Is the "rapture" a separate event? How does Jesus "bring with him" those who have experienced the "first resurrection" if he has not yet arrived?



The sign that Jesus gave in Matthew 24:3-14 was given to mark his "presence" (parousia) not his "coming".
Why is that significant? Because Jesus' "presence" needed a "sign" to show that it had taken place....you don't need a "sign" for something obvious.

At Acts 1:11, the angels who appeared at Jesus' ascension said.....“Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.” How many saw Jesus departure? Only his apostles, so when he was to return "in the same manner", again it was not to be a public event, but only recognised by his anointed ones.

If Jesus' "parousia" was a separate event to his "coming" as judge to execute the wicked, (indicating a timeframe for all of the features of the "sign" to be observed, and for the preaching of "the good news of the kingdom" to be completed. Matthew 24:14) then the first resurrection has already taken place, and when the final part of these days comes, culminating in the "end" of the present system of things, then the "rapture" or the transformation of the remaining ones of the anointed, will take place and the Kingdom will "come" in a very real way make it possible for God's will to "be done on earth as it is in heaven". (Daniel 2:44)

 

[Deeje]

@Clara Tea are you having problems with the quote function?

 

[Faithofchristian]

In your opinion, we have it all wrong....just as in our opinion, you have it all wrong....so how do we evaluate this situation? We allow the scriptures to speak for themselves....

(Had you read more correctly what I written.
You would have found I did produce scriptures to prove my point)

I asked you before, who else believes what you believe? If it is only you, and you have no brotherhood who shares your 'opinions', then you do not have it right. There are no 'lone rangers' in Christianity.
Paule wrote at Hebrews 13:17...
"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." (NASB)

( Well first seeing that the ( NASB)
I don't follow,, it's a corrupt book that has more ofman's teachings and doctrines had into to it...than any other bible..
But then the (NASB) is not considered a bible..it's just a book of man's teachings and doctrines)

He also said at Hebrews 10:24-25......" and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near." (NASB)

( Again just a book of man's teachings and doctrines Incorporated into ( NASB)

With whom are you meeting together to stimulate your faith? Who is there to correct you and to guide you in the teachings of the Christ? If these gatherings are vital to our spiritual welfare, more so now than ever before, with whom are you doing this?

My brotherhood is over 8 million strong in a united global family, who are all taught the same things and who all carry out the important work of preaching the Kingdom, before the end comes. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

Can I ask who is keeping 'watch over your soul', if you have no leaders or brotherhood?
Your version of events might sound all well and good to you, but in Christianity, no one is permitted to be their own teacher. There were always appointed 'shepherds' to care for the "sheep" under the guidance of the Fine Shepherd. God would never permit his flock to be without a shepherd and large flocks had more than one.

Jesus appointed a "faithful and wise slave" to "feed" his household their "food at the proper time". This is spiritual food and it is a fellow "slave" who provides it. (Matthew 24:45) This is a composite body who oversees the serving of the food "at the proper time to the household of Christ's servants. When Christ returns, he commends and rewards that slave for doing a good job. (Matthew 24:46-47)

( So you say no one is be their own teach..but yet the scriptures will prove you wrong.....have you ever read in the book of Philippians 2:12--"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"
And how exactly does a person workout their own salvation..
As it is written in 2 Timothy 2:15--"Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth"

Therefore a person can be their own teach..to study for themselves to workout their own salvation....
Rightly dividing the word of truth...
This means when Pastor is speaking you rightly dividing the words the truth from the error that he speaks...
The Lord Jesus Christ speaking,saying in Matthew 18:20--"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them"

Therefore me being 1, the spirit of truth being two, and The Lord Jesus Christ being Three...what more can I ask than that)




That passage of scripture is interesting...

Just before he speaks about the "mystery", he says....
" it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly."

So Paul differentiates between a body designed for life on earth, and one that can live in the spirit realm. Those chosen for heavenly life, which included all who were chosen by God for that role, will experience that transformation.

But what he says next is vital to our understanding and the timeframe in which it takes place.
"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:50-52)

Since flesh and blood cannot exist outside of earth's atmosphere, taking humans to heaven meant changing their physical body to a spiritual one.
When does this happen?

( Had you any clue or idea...that at the coming of Christ Jesus.... everyone and this means Everyone shall be changed from this body of flesh and blood to that of the Spirit...to meet the Lord Jesus Christ in the spirit.....
The Hebrew translation for ( air) is
Ruwach which being interpret means
( Spirit). Not in the ( air) but in the (Spirit)
Shall we meet The Lord Jesus Christ in the ( Spirit)


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."
( My guess would be..that you haven't the slightest clue or idea what the trumpet of God is? Or who the dead are?.
The dead in Christ are those that are Spiritually dead to Christ.
The Spiritually dead are like the Atheists they have no spiritual awareness of God.
So the Atheists are dead to God..
So therefore the dead shall rise first to be taken to Judgement first..then we that are and remain shall meet the Lord Jesus Christ in the spirit.
Notice--"we that are alive and remain....What this means is.
The Lord Jesus Christ speaking, saying in Matthew 24:29-30,
29--"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"
Matthew 24:13--"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved"
What this means--- But he that shall endure unto the end of the tribulation.the same shall be saved"
What this mean is, " He that shall endure unto the end of the tribulation shall be saved. Therefore we that are alive and remain at the end of the tribulation shall be saved)
Again the Hebrew translation for ( air)
Is Ruwach which being interpret means
(Spirit) therefore we shall meet The Lord Jesus Christ in the Spirit)

The resurrection of those who will assist Christ in his Kingdom are not raised until his return. They were to "sleep" until that time. So Christ's return has already taken place and all the features of the "sign" that he gave to indicate that his rulership had begun, have been witnessed since 1914. If the world is now waiting for Christ "manifestation" (a completely separate event to his "parousia") then it makes sense that Jesus will bring the complete number of the 144,000 with him when he executes his judgments. Those instantly transformed at that time will not have to "sleep" in the grave like the faithful ones of the first century.

Well it's evidence that you have no clue or idea...there are no one in the graves...
When a person dies..their body of flesh and blood returns back to the dust of the earth.
And their spirit returns back to God who gave it..
Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the Spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

What this means..to return back to God..
Means we were with God from the start..
God created us as Spirit beings and then created man of flesh and blood and God put us..spirit being inside of the flesh and blood body...
That when the body of flesh and blood dies the body returns back to the dust of the earth and our Spirit being returns back to God who gave it..

Before you go saying...to give scripture..you definitely need to read what a person gives in scriptures.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Not everyone.....only the anointed who have a role in the heavenly kingdom will gain a heavenly resurrection, like their High Priest Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 3:1) This governmental arrangement is implemented to guide the earthly subjects of the Kingdom back into an acceptable relationship with God.....a relationship they lost due to the sin of father Adam. Jesus paid his debt and freed the human race from the ongoing condemnation to sin and death. Now mankind had a hope for the future.....a resurrection to life on this earth the way God intended at the outset.

( Had you read what disciple Paul written.
Paul written very plainly in
1 Corinthians 15:51--"Behold, I show you a mystery, We shall not all sleep, But we shall all be changed"
Had you notice the words ( We) ( all)
This means no matter who they are we all shall be changed.
Whether it's Atheists or homosexuals.the wicked.. unbelievers..
Everyone shall be changed from this body of flesh and blood to that of the Spirit at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ..

To be judge accordingly what they have done in the body of flesh and blood..

As disciple Paul also written in
Romans 14:10--"But why do you judge your brother, or why do you set at nothing your brother, for We shall all stand before the Judgement seat of Christ"

Notice against the words ( We) (all)
This means Everyone no matter who they are, whether it be Atheists, homosexuals, the wicked, and unbelievers..
We all shall stand before the Judgement seat of Jesus Christ..to be judge according to what people did in the body of flesh and blood..
The Great White Throne Judgement of God's...at this time everyone is of the Spirit to be judge accordingly what they did in the Spirit...
Now remember that at the coming of Christ Jesus... everyone shall be changed from this body of flesh and blood to that of the Spirit.. so people will be judge accordingly to they have done in the Spirit..)



Revelation 21:2-4...
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

The "holy city new Jerusalem" is seen coming down from heaven, so it is not literal Jerusalem.
By means of this kingdom, those on earth will benefit from God's tabernacle (tent) over them. The benefits described for these ones is for humans, who will now get to live the life that God planned for them all along. We will go back to the conditions of Eden because "the first things have passed away"....like a bad dream, we will leave all the pain, suffering and death associated with life in this world behind, and go back to where we should have been, if Adam had not thrown us all under the bus.

Well it's evidence had you read
Revelation 21:1...there is no where that said the earth will be taken back to garden of Eden..
Revelation 21:1, plainly states.
Verse 1--"And I saw a new heaven and new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away, and there was no more sea"

Therefore there is not one word said about going back to the garden of Eden as you say...
It's evidence that people are taught by man's teachings and doctrines in the churches...
Had you any clue or idea what the first heaven and first earth is..
The first heaven and Earth age is back when the dinosaurs were here on earth..
This being the first heaven and Earth age.

The second heaven and Earth age.
Is we are at in this earth age.

The third heaven and Earth age...
will be when The Lord Jesus Christ coming to establish his kingdom here on earth.

You show yourself as having no understanding of the Scriptures..
For all of God's Prophet's written about the first earth age and disciples Paul and Peter written about the first earth age...


The 144,00 are the spiritual rulers in the Kingdom....the great crowd are "tribulation survivors" (Revelation 7:13-14).....these then become the nucleus of the "new earth". ( 2 Peter 3:13)...the earthly subjects of the heavenly Kingdom who are very much mortals of flesh and blood....but who can live forever as long as they are obedient to God's reasonable commands. This was the prospect put before A & E.



Revelation 12:7-12 describes the event.....
"And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,



“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night."

It is when Jesus receives his authority as King that this eviction takes place. The devil and his angels are clearly identified, and the "woe" that was to follow his eviction would be the result of his anger, knowing that his time is almost up. Look at the state of the world....its all happening. His efforts continue to intensify as the countdown goes on.

Well it's evidence again that you have no understanding at all about the book of Revelation.
As for Revelation 12:7-12, does not take place until the 6th trumpet is sounded..
Then Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven..but not until the 6th trumpet is sounded first...
Look Jesus Christ given in his book of Revelation.
7 seals 7 trumpets 7 vials
Which equals 777.

The 6 seal 6 trumpet 6 vial
Which equals 666 Satan's number.

The Lord Jesus Christ comes at the sounding of the 7 trumpet.

Satan comes at the sounding of the
6 trumpet.
We are now in the
5 seal 5 trumpet 5 vial of Revelation.

Of a matter of fact the whole book of Revelation is all about the day and hour of Jesus Christ return...
My guess is that you didn't even know that..
All because people are not taught that in the churches..
Revelation means..to Uncover to Reveal.
And the Lord Jesus Christ Uncovered and Revealed all about the day and hour of his return in his book of Revelation..

 

[Faithofchristian]

You see two tribulations....we see one tribulation where mankind will turn on each other and then we see a victorious Christ meting out judgment on those who treated his father with disrespect and who misrepresented him to the people.



As you can see, we interpret that very differently to you. When Christ manifests himself as judge...people will know that their decisions to eliminate God from their lives, or to teach people lies about God and his purpose, have the consequences that they scoffed at......just like the days of Noah, Jesus said (Matthew 24:37-39)...and here we are.

There are two tribulations.
The first tribulation is when Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth..

The second tribulation is when The Lord Jesus Christ comes and catches everyone in the very act of worshipping Satan.

Had you read Mark 13:24--"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light"
Notice ( after that tribulation)
This being the first tribulation of Satan.
And then the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light"
This being the second tribulation at the coming of Christ Jesus...when he catches people in the very act of worshipping Satan.
You know. You just might do a lot better if you stop listening to mans teachings and doctrines in the churches and listen more to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

You know the Lord Jesus Christ Condemns man's teachings and doctrines in
Matthew 15:7-9,
7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

There you have The Lord Jesus Christ himself condemning man's teachings and doctrines in the churches.

 

[metis]

I would think your priest would speak for the catholic "church," as to what various symbols mean.

Again, I go through what the theologians say, but even with them I don't blindly accept what one of them or even a consensus of them may believe and teach.

I'm surprised you have no clue as to what it means. I don't know why you don't think your priest would have the official answer

Who said that I "have no clue..."? Didn't you read my previous post on the "144,000"? And there is no "official answer" on this within Catholicism as interpretations can and do vary.

The enemy of serious theological scholarship is "certainty", because anyone whom has spent any serious time in scriptural studies well knows that intelligent and well-informed people can have different interpretations on a great many narratives. Even within the early Church, the Book of Revelation was so controversial that, according to the theologian William Barclay, roughly 1/3 of the local congregations didn't use it. It took the Church's 4th century selection of the canon to make it part of the Bible that we read today.

A message that I give to my students along this line runs this way: "To a child a tree is very simple, but to a biologist a tree is very complex". If you want to throw insinuations and insults around, you're not only acting like the former but you're also not doing any serious studying on the matter.

Thus, with this, I'm done respond to your arrogant insults.

 

[cataway]

Well it's evidence again that you have no understanding at all about the book of Revelation.
As for Revelation 12:7-12, does not take place until the 6th trumpet is sounded..
Then Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven..but not until the 6th trumpet is sounded first...
Look Jesus Christ given in his book of Revelation.
7 seals 7 trumpets 7 vials
Which equals 777.

The 6 seal 6 trumpet 6 vial
Which equals 666 Satan's number.

The Lord Jesus Christ comes at the sounding of the 7 trumpet.

Satan comes at the sounding of the
6 trumpet.
We are now in the
5 seal 5 trumpet 5 vial of Revelation.

Of a matter of fact the whole book of Revelation is all about the day and hour of Jesus Christ return...
My guess is that you didn't even know that..
All because people are not taught that in the churches..
Revelation means..to Uncover to Reveal.
And the Lord Jesus Christ Uncovered and Revealed all about the day and hour of his return in his book of Revelation..

sad to think there are people that believe your nonsense

 

[Deeje]

sad to think there are people that believe your nonsense

It is indeed a unique interpretation but certainly not the only one. Deluded souls are everywhere and only at the judgment will there be a separation of the sheep from the goats. If we are happy with our delusions, with no room for contemplation about any other beliefs, then God will let us keep what makes us happy. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) He will not force his truth on anyone.

Its a shame that people can think that they alone have the only truth as if the 'lone rangers' have any real way to tell their messages to the world as Jesus instructed. (Matthew 28:19-20) None of them agree with each other, so who is God directing? Is his spirit directing all these people in different directions by giving them mixed messages? Are all of them right? Or none of them?

According to Jesus there was just one "slave" appointed to "feed" his fellow slaves their spiritual "food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45).....we have to find him and eat at his table because there are no others. Its knowing what to look for.

If the good news about God's kingdom was to be preached in all nations, (Matthew 24:14) how does a 'lone ranger' accomplish that?
The Internet is a good medium for many things, but not everyone has the internet. Jesus preached face to face because it was the best method of sharing the good news in real time. One could assess body language and enthusiasm for the things they were speaking about....and a positive response could be seen as well as heard.
Its still the best way, but the pandemic has changed everything in the world....for now.

 

[nPeace]

David's throne was not in the sky above the earth, it was in Zion, and on Mount Zion. And that is where Christ is to rule, in Jerusalem.

So I guess we disagree about where David's throne was. I think it was on the earth.

Hebrews 12:18-24

 

[nPeace]

The heaven from which John heard the voice of the singing of the 144,000 is the same heaven where the dragon is to be cast out. It is after the dragon is cast out that the 144,000 will stand on Mount Zion and sing in victory.
Not only is heaven (in the sky) the place of God's throne but heaven(on earth) is also the place where kings of the earth rule. There are high places on earth just as heaven is a high place.
The dragon king will be cast out of that heaven by the remnant who did not worship the beast and by Jesus and his immortal saints who will be executing those judgments to aid the 144,000(remnant) to victory.

Zephaniah speaks of that remnant:

"I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.
The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid." Zep 3:12-13

Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Jerusalem is where God's judgments are to be executed. it's not till after those judgments are executed that God's kingdom will be established on earth. And the remnant 144,000 will be the beginning of the kingdom on earth.

Revelation 12:7-9

 

[nPeace]

Well it's evidence that you have no clue or idea...there are no one in the graves...
When a person dies..their body of flesh and blood returns back to the dust of the earth.
And their spirit returns back to God who gave it..
Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the Spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

What this means..to return back to God..
Means we were with God from the start..
God created us as Spirit beings and then created man of flesh and blood and God put us..spirit being inside of the flesh and blood body...
That when the body of flesh and blood dies the body returns back to the dust of the earth and our Spirit being returns back to God who gave it..

Before you go saying...to give scripture..you definitely need to read what a person gives in scriptures.

Faithofchristian Do you believe God has created spirits for everyone that will be born on earth?
So for example God has created spirits for the triplets that Jane will give birth to, or the twins that Debbie has conceived?
What if Mary has a miscarriage? Or what if Janet has an abortion?
What about the millions of babies born in the porn business, or sex orgies?
Are you saying God has created spirits for sll of these?

I think it would be expected that the average thinker, would want to know where in the Bible they would find such an idea, sine it sounds more like human error.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well it's evidence that you have no clue or idea...there are no one in the graves...
When a person dies..their body of flesh and blood returns back to the dust of the earth.
And their spirit returns back to God who gave it..
Ecclesiastes 12:7--"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the Spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

What this means..to return back to God..
Means we were with God from the start..
God created us as Spirit beings and then created man of flesh and blood and God put us..spirit being inside of the flesh and blood body...
That when the body of flesh and blood dies the body returns back to the dust of the earth and our Spirit being returns back to God who gave it..

Before you go saying...to give scripture..you definitely need to read what a person gives in scriptures.

So you actually think you were a person "with God" before you were conceived in your mother's womb? Just to make sure you understand me, I am asking if you were a baby or an adult when you were "with God" before you were conceived in your mother's womb?

 

[YoursTrue]

Again, I go through what the theologians say, but even with them I don't blindly accept what one of them or even a consensus of them may believe and teach.

Who said that I "have no clue..."? Didn't you read my previous post on the "144,000"? And there is no "official answer" on this within Catholicism as interpretations can and do vary.

The enemy of serious theological scholarship is "certainty", because anyone whom has spent any serious time in scriptural studies well knows that intelligent and well-informed people can have different interpretations on a great many narratives. Even within the early Church, the Book of Revelation was so controversial that, according to the theologian William Barclay, roughly 1/3 of the local congregations didn't use it. It took the Church's 4th century selection of the canon to make it part of the Bible that we read today.

A message that I give to my students along this line runs this way: "To a child a tree is very simple, but to a biologist a tree is very complex". If you want to throw insinuations and insults around, you're not only acting like the former but you're also not doing any serious studying on the matter.

Thus, with this, I'm done respond to your arrogant insults.

My oh my! Do you even believe Jesus was resurrected and his disciples saw him before he ascended to heaven?

 

[YoursTrue]

Hebrews 12:18-24

Yes, there is a heavenly Jerusalem. Thanks for bringing that out.

 

[YoursTrue]

Again, I go through what the theologians say, but even with them I don't blindly accept what one of them or even a consensus of them may believe and teach.

Who said that I "have no clue..."? Didn't you read my previous post on the "144,000"? And there is no "official answer" on this within Catholicism as interpretations can and do vary.

The enemy of serious theological scholarship is "certainty", because anyone whom has spent any serious time in scriptural studies well knows that intelligent and well-informed people can have different interpretations on a great many narratives. Even within the early Church, the Book of Revelation was so controversial that, according to the theologian William Barclay, roughly 1/3 of the local congregations didn't use it. It took the Church's 4th century selection of the canon to make it part of the Bible that we read today.

A message that I give to my students along this line runs this way: "To a child a tree is very simple, but to a biologist a tree is very complex". If you want to throw insinuations and insults around, you're not only acting like the former but you're also not doing any serious studying on the matter.

Thus, with this, I'm done respond to your arrogant insults.

And some believe that unless you thoroughly understand the original languages you cannot understand the scriptures. Yet Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."