The 144.000 Jews.

[calm]

Book of R, is coded 100%.

A lot in the Book of Revelation is indeed symbolic, but the 144,000 are real persons. This becomes clear when you look at the context.
And the "number 666" is in truth not a number but a symbol. The translators interpreted this as a number, which is not true. And instead of simply keeping the symbol, they wrote the number.
What John must have seen was this (at least in Greek):

 

[leov]

A lot in the Book of Revelation is indeed symbolic, but the 144,000 are real persons. This becomes clear when you look at the context.
And the "number 666" is in truth not a number but a symbol. The translators interpreted this as a number, which is not true. And instead of simply keeping the symbol, they wrote the number.
What John must have seen was this (at least in Greek):

Revelation 1:3 Lexicon: Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
Note word 'anaginōskōn' -'re-know' , word tell me that the way to understand R. Is to go through the same process that John went:
"10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."
John saw a vision while being in altered state of consciousness. That is why I would not take anything literally in the book of R.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

This is not physical virginity but spiritual purity. Some of the apostles were married. (1 Corinthians 9:5) Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law (Matthew 8:14-15).....you think Peter is not going to heaven?

What? Then what are the 'women who don't get a chance to defile them?' Metaphorical women of the spiritual mind who are like metaphysical ideas? People around here, no matter what believe, like to breeze over things they don't know how to deal with. I'm not going to read the rest of what you wrote because you clearly are not dealing with this one very weird passage. It's very blatantly about the requirement of a bunch of Jewish virgins

 

[nPeace]

What? Then what are the 'women who don't get a chance to defile them?' Metaphorical women of the spiritual mind who are like metaphysical ideas? People around here, no matter what believe, like to breeze over things they don't know how to deal with. I'm not going to read the rest of what you wrote because you clearly are not dealing with this one very weird passage. It's very blatantly about the requirement of a bunch of Jewish virgins

What???
So you think this verse is talking about just men, who are firstfruits to God... and why?
So this has nothing to do with 1 Corinthians 15:20-23? Why not, if no?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

So you think this verse is talking about just men, who are firstfruits to God... and why?

...why would you think otherwise? That they would not 'defile themselves with women' clearly would identify them as being men in the text

Why is it that when I want to talk about what revelations clearly says, it goes down some kind rabbit hole where I'm supposed to magically read sentences in the most conspiratorial way possible, as if what it says isn't far out enough

So this has nothing to do with 1 Corinthians 15:20-23? Why not, if no?

If the lamb is Jesus, then it's just talking about Jesus getting all these dead Jewish virigins to rise again as first fruits, that he wants to have around him for some reason. To me, it just seems bizarre.

 

[nPeace]

...why would you think otherwise? That they would not 'defile themselves with women' clearly would identify them as being men in the text

Why is it that when I want to talk about what revelations clearly says, it goes down some kind rabbit hole where I'm supposed to magically read sentences in the most conspiratorial way possible, as if what it says isn't far out enough



If the lamb is Jesus, then it's just talking about Jesus getting all these dead Jewish virigins to rise again as first fruits, that he wants to have around him for some reason. To me, it just seems bizarre.

Well, I would say we have to take the scriptures collectively. So when I take this, and I take this, along with understanding the sacred secret (mystery), it all makes sense to me, that the 144,000 are the firstfruits to Christ - the lambs wife, for the purpose of ruling as kings, priests, and judges, in his kingdom, to bring all things back to God's original purpose, as started in the beginning.
After all, the scriptures clearly show that the new nation, are no longer Jew, or Greek (man of the nations) in a fleshly way, but Jews - one nation - in a spiritual way.

A puzzle has many pieces, but we can't get a clear picture by forcing the pieces into place, while leaving out some.
I see a clear picture. It's not bizarre.

 

[Kenny]

The 144,000 Jews that the Bible mentions (Revelation 7:4-7) are the only ones who will go to heaven and reign with God. Interestingly, these 144,000 Jews are all virgins. For it is written:

Revelation 14:1
1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

That would mean that even people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob do not belong to these 144,000 people. And that surprises me very much, for who are these people and why are they so special that they even stand above these 3 fathers?

Are these maybe the "lost sheep" Jesus once mentioned?

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24

What do you think?

I don't think the 144,000 has anything to do with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I'm sure that there are different viewpoints. Those who believe in the "catching up" of the church believe that they are simply the end-times evangelists.

My viewpoint that the lost sheep were the Jewish people and the Gentiles were the "other fold"

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Well, I would say we have to take the scriptures collectively. So when I take this, and I take this, along with understanding the sacred secret (mystery), it all makes sense to me, that the 144,000 are the firstfruits to Christ - the lambs wife, for the purpose of ruling as kings, priests, and judges, in his kingdom, to bring all things back to God's original purpose, as started in the beginning.
After all, the scriptures clearly show that the new nation, are no longer Jew, or Greek (man of the nations) in a fleshly way, but Jews - one nation - in a spiritual way.

So now the the 144,000 resurrected Jews are actually the collective wife of Christ.. So in such a 'marriage,' do they become coequals in power? As we know, power is distributed in successful humanly marital relationships.

A puzzle has many pieces, but we can't get a clear picture by forcing the pieces into place, while leaving out some.
I see a clear picture. It's not bizarre.

Yeah I'd say so far, it looks like it. It's like, let's have a religion where no agrees on what each line of the last book says. Some apparently say that when it says 'Jewish virgins,' it is talking actually talking about spiritual purists who are actually not virgins. And maybe when it clearly seems to be talking about men, it clearly is not talking about men.

I have a new interpretation. I say that when it talks about 144,000 Jewish virgins, it clearly must be talking about 196,000 horses that must emerge from the Caspian sea. And from there, they are to trot to Shanghai

 

[calm]

I don't think the 144,000 has anything to do with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I'm sure that there are different viewpoints. Those who believe in the "catching up" of the church believe that they are simply the end-times evangelists.

My viewpoint that the lost sheep were the Jewish people and the Gentiles were the "other fold"

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Yes you are right, The other fold is made up of all nations. And the fold of Israel consists only of Jews.
According to the Bible there are 2 different groups that will receive eternal life, one group is called the " chosen ones ", these are the 144.000 Jews of all tribes of Israel each 12.000. These will reign with God in heaven.
The other group is called the "righteous" in the Bible, they consist of all nations (Gentiles). (Revelation 7:9). And the "righteous" will live on earth forever.

 

[Kenny]

This other fold is made up of all nations. And the fold of Israel consists only of Jews.
According to the Bible there are 2 different groups that will receive eternal life, one group is called the " chosen ones ", these are the 144.000 Jews of all tribes of Israel each 12.000. These will reign with God in heaven.
The other group is called the "righteous" in the Bible, they consist of all nations (Gentiles). (Revelation 7:9). And the "righteous" will live on earth forever.

No... I know that some hold to that position, but I don't agree with it.


"According to the Bible there are 2 different groups that will receive eternal life,"

On the onset, I would not agree and hold unto this statement: " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Notice, not "two different groups" but rather "whosever believeth". Other scriptures concur with this position.

Second... " these are the 144.000 Jews of all tribes of Israel each 12.000. These will reign with God in heaven."

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

These are on the earth and not in Heaven.

There are other points... but don't want to make it too long.

 

[nPeace]

So now the the 144,000 resurrected Jews are actually the collective wife of Christ.. So in such a 'marriage,' do they become coequals in power? As we know, power is distributed in successful humanly marital relationships.

Yes. The Bible says the brides put on the same body as her husband.
(1 Cor. 15:53-55; 2 Cor. 5)

Yeah I'd say so far, it looks like it. It's like, let's have a religion where no agrees on what each line of the last book says. Some apparently say that when it says 'Jewish virgins,' it is talking actually talking about spiritual purists who are actually not virgins. And maybe when it clearly seems to be talking about men, it clearly is not talking about men.

I have a new interpretation. I say that when it talks about 144,000 Jewish virgins, it clearly must be talking about 196,000 horses that must emerge from the Caspian sea. And from there, they are to trot to Shanghai

Like I said, collectively, the pieces should fit to form a correct picture.
When you force pieces in, you ruin the puzzle pieces, so you might as well throw it away.
If you get pieces from some random puzzle box, and force those in, it's worst. Useless.

 

[sooda]

The 144,000 Jews that the Bible mentions (Revelation 7:4-7) are the only ones who will go to heaven and reign with God. Interestingly, these 144,000 Jews are all virgins. For it is written:

Revelation 14:1
1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

That would mean that even people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob do not belong to these 144,000 people. And that surprises me very much, for who are these people and why are they so special that they even stand above these 3 fathers?

Are these maybe the "lost sheep" Jesus once mentioned?

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24

What do you think?

Its poetic language.. it means a really big number.

People of Judah considered Israel to be half breeds and fake Jews... Perhaps that's what Jesus meant by lost.

 

[nPeace]

@KenS @calm So did Jesus gather the lost sheep he came for, or did he have to reject them, because they rejected him, and did that not require turning to the Gentiles, and they being grafted in, in order that the full number be complete?

Matthew 21:43 This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.
(Matthew 23:37-39)

 

[calm]

No... I know that some hold to that position, but I don't agree with it.


"According to the Bible there are 2 different groups that will receive eternal life,"

On the onset, I would not agree and hold unto this statement: " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Notice, not "two different groups" but rather "whosever believeth". Other scriptures concur with this position.

Yes, Jesus came and died for all but nevertheless there are two different groups. This is clearly mentioned in Revelation 7:1-9:

The Jews:

4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

The Gentiles:

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
__________

And the 144,000 will go to heaven.(1 Peter 1:3-4)
But the righteous shall inherit the land. (Psalm 37:29)

Second... " these are the 144.000 Jews of all tribes of Israel each 12.000. These will reign with God in heaven."

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

These are on the earth and not in Heaven.

There are other points... but don't want to make it too long.

Please consider the context, this refers to the four angels and not to the 144,000.

Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

 

[Kenny]

@KenS @calm So did Jesus gather the lost sheep he came for, or did he have to reject them, because they rejected him, and did that not require turning to the Gentiles, and they being grafted in, in order that the full number be complete?

Matthew 21:43 This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.
(Matthew 23:37-39)

IMV, I believe he his talking in generalities here, and then only for a time. We understand that it was the Jews that first started His Church by the thousands upon thousands. So the "lost sheep" were found. Thus, I believe he is talking in generalities. Even today there are many of the Jewish nation that accept the Messiah.

Even Paul said, Romans 11:17 "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree"

Some points:

1) "some branches be broken off" means that not all branches were broken off. God is not finished with His chosen people.
2) I believe he was talking to the those who were ruling and in charge of disseminating God's word. In that sense, "yes", it was given to the Gentiles (but Jews are still included for they believed) - but even the gentiles can be removed "20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
3) The "root... of the olive tree" is talking about Israel. So, IMV, He delivers back to the Jewish people the charge of disseminating His salvation. So... it was the Jews first, then the Gentiles and ultimately back to the Jews.​

BUT, of course, I let God have the ultimate say so as these are just my views.

​

​

 

[nPeace]

And the 144,000 will go to heaven.(1 Peter 1:3-4)
But the righteous shall inherit the land. (Psalm 37:29)

Sounds good to me. At least we agree on that.

 

[Kenny]

Yes, Jesus came and died for all but nevertheless there are two different groups. This is clearly mentioned in Revelation 7:1-9:

4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
__________

And the 144,000 will go to heaven.(1 Peter 1:3-4)
But the righteous shall inherit the land. (Psalm 37:29)

Doesn't really say that.... The innumerable of people were "before the throne and before the Lamb" and therefore were already in Heaven (Since the throne is in Heaven)

Doesn't say anything about inheriting the land nor does it say anything about 144,000 reigning in heaven.

But, YES, they will go to Heaven.

Please consider the context, this refers to the four angels and not to the 144,000.

Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

Actually, it refers to both. The 144,000 are in the land and the angels were stopped from doing what they wee going to do "until" God seals the 144,000 Jews that are on the earth. The context from vs 1 is about the earth.

 

[calm]

@KenS
Let's end the discussion. It's pointless, no matter how long we talk, you won't understand it and you will twist everything in the Bible as it suits you.
God's bless.

 

[MikeDwight]

Then Jesus Christ gave the command of Marriage to be as long as people shall live as God brought together Adam and Eve and the same commandment that to all those who should accept it or those who act as Eunuchs? Yet, you don't literally believe in the promotion of an extra elect 144,000 virgins?
That's why I'm here to promote my internet clan, Wings of Scithius. Those undirtied without ever having love of women can join only. The ranks are by age. You must pledge to destroy, disgrace, and disrupt the secular authority with al yoru heart, and al yoru might, and al your might, until you die. Free group coffee Tuesdays.

Of course any application involves a thorough background check of dates, friends, involvements, scary cross or paintings.

 

[Kenny]

@KenS
Let's end the discussion. It's pointless, no matter how long we talk, you won't understand it and you will twist everything in the Bible as it suits you.
God's bless.

Ok... But who "won't understand" is relative.

I supported it by verses while you gave simply viewpoints. I like the Bereans.