The 144.000 Jews.

[Faithofchristian]

1: They are not all Jews -which refers to the HOUSE of Judah -which is Judah and Benjamin -and likely some Levites which were among all tribes. Some are of the House of Israel -which are the remainder of the tribes (who were prophesied to lose their language and even knowledge of their own identity for the most part). Notice that the tribe of Dan is not mentioned here explained elsehwere in scripture -but one of the half-tribes, Manasseh (the other half-tribe Ephraim is also not mentioned -but was technically included in Joseph).
2: The meek shall inherit the Earth -not heaven (though eventually all of the universe -which was "formed to be inhabited").
3: Virgin does not necessarily mean never having/having had sex in proper context.
4: The 144,000 are sealed just before the greatest time of trouble on Earth -and will serve God/minister to people during that time (who did not escape all of these things which will surely come to pass -but who may still be with those in the first resurrection. The servants of God who do not go to a place of safety during that time are not necessarily not worthy to escape, but God will have called them for that specific purpose).
5: Their purpose is actually to help a great multitude of ALL NATIONS to be in the first resurrection....

"Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

...Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

It is by God's elect people are the ones who speaks to the 144:000 during the tribulation, to expose who the AntiChrist and who the false prophet really is.

Where in Revelation will tell what that seal is, that the 144:000 are sealed with.
What is that seal?
Where in the book of Jesus Christ Revelation tells what that seal is?

Who are the Locust Army that is not to hurt the trees nor any green thing.
Where in the book of Jesus Christ Revelation tells who that Locust Army is.
Revelation 9:1-4.
Who does the Locust Army represents in the world?
And also seeing that spoke about the first Resurrection.
What does the "First Resurrection" mean?
Seeing by this time, Jesus Christ has come and everyone is no longer of flesh and blood, but of the Spirit.
Remember in the twinkle of an eye we all shall be changed to the Spirit. This happens right when Jesus Christ returns to earth.
1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

Therefore the first Resurrection is not about flesh and blood, but of the Spirit.

 

[1213]

...That would mean that even people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob do not belong to these 144,000 people. ...

Yes, those 144000 are special group that comes from the great tribulation. In addition to that there is vast group of people that are also saved.

One of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?" I told him, "My lord, you know." He said to me, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb's blood.
Rev. 7:13-14

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
Rev. 7:9

 

[Desert Snake]

You would need some divine understanding of the text, book of Revelation, to understand it. It doesn't correlate to usage of words jews , as it is used religiously, so, if no understanding, then I wouldn't try to interpret it, personally.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Yes, those 144000 are special group that comes from the great tribulation. In addition to that there is vast group of people that are also saved.

One of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?" I told him, "My lord, you know." He said to me, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb's blood.
Rev. 7:13-14

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
Rev. 7:9

Ok, the question is, Who are they. That came out of the great tribulation and washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb?

 

[Etritonakin]

It is by God's elect people are the ones who speaks to the 144:000 during the tribulation, to expose who the AntiChrist and who the false prophet really is.

Where in Revelation will tell what that seal is, that the 144:000 are sealed with.
What is that seal?
Where in the book of Jesus Christ Revelation tells what that seal is?

Who are the Locust Army that is not to hurt the trees nor any green thing.
Where in the book of Jesus Christ Revelation tells who that Locust Army is.
Revelation 9:1-4.
Who does the Locust Army represents in the world?
And also seeing that spoke about the first Resurrection.
What does the "First Resurrection" mean?
Seeing by this time, Jesus Christ has come and everyone is no longer of flesh and blood, but of the Spirit.
Remember in the twinkle of an eye we all shall be changed to the Spirit. This happens right when Jesus Christ returns to earth.
1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

Therefore the first Resurrection is not about flesh and blood, but of the Spirit.

I am not sure what you meant by the first parts -if you were asking or telling something, but the first resurrection is definitely when those "in Christ" are made immortal spirits -given a "glorious body" rather than this "vile body" -the dead in Christ first -then the living in Christ being caught up with them. The rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years following Christ's return is finished.

 

[Etritonakin]

Yes, those 144000 are special group that comes from the great tribulation. In addition to that there is vast group of people that are also saved.

One of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?" I told him, "My lord, you know." He said to me, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb's blood.
Rev. 7:13-14

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
Rev. 7:9

Actually, though the 144,000 do come out of the tribulation to salvation, notice the 144,000 are sealed before it -and go into it -as servants of God. That is WHY they are sealed.

God signifies them as his servants -to serve him specifically during the time which follows (workers in the field, as it were) -in their foreheads. The law of God is also to be "as a sign on the hand and as frontlets between the eyes"/on the forehead -so they will definitely have been called by God to keep the law -the commandments as given, etc.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I am not sure what you meant by the first parts -if you were asking or telling something, but the first resurrection is definitely when those "in Christ" are made immortal spirits -given a "glorious body" rather than this "vile body" -the dead in Christ first -then the living in Christ being caught up with them. The rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years following Christ's return is finished.

Who do you believe the dead in Christ is?

Before the thousand years even begun Jesus Christ has already come.

The thousand years is when Satan and his angels are cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years. Then after the thousand years have expired then Satan and his angels are set free once again to go out to deceive all people of all the earth.
Revelation 20:1-10

 

[Faithofchristian]

Actually, though the 144,000 do come out of the tribulation to salvation, notice the 144,000 are sealed before it -and go into it -as servants of God.

Have you any idea what that seal is. That the 144.000 are sealed with.

The seals are made mention of throughout the book of Revelation.

But what are those seals and what does the seals represents?

 

[Etritonakin]

Who do you believe the dead in Christ is?

Before the thousand years even begun Jesus Christ has already come.

The thousand years is when Satan and his angels are cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years. Then after the thousand years have expired then Satan and his angels are set free once again to go out to deceive all people of all the earth.
Revelation 20:1-10

The dead in Christ are those from Adam to Christ's return who have been called specifically by God, repented, kept the commandments, etc., etc. -and who have died/slept.
Yes -the thousand years begins when Christ returns

 

[Etritonakin]

Have you any idea what that seal is. That the 144.000 are sealed with.

The seals are made mention of throughout the book of Revelation.

But what are those seals and what does the seals represents?

By the definition of the word used, it signifies them AS servants of God. The seven seals, etc., do not refer to the 144,000 specifically.

The definition refers to a signet -such as used on a signet ring -which is a ring that was pressed into wax which sealed a letter -indicating that a specific person wrote the letter -and it was not changed until the seal/letter was opened.

It just means that God is specifically identifying them as his servants -and the servants of God keep his commandments (including sabbath and biblical holy days), minister, prophesy, etc. -and servants specifically for the time which follows.

 

[Kenny]

You know you always have the respect of JWs.

Thank you.... it is obvious that you all study.

You'll have to connect the scriptures.
Remember, they are ruling the earth. They are taken to heaven and given a heavenly body, for that purpose. They are no longer on earth, but rule along with Jesus, from heaven.

Revelation. 14:4
The 144,000 are bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

1 Corinthians 15:22, 23
22...so also in the Christ all will be made alive,
23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.
(Romans 8:15-25; 1 Thessalonians 4:16)

Luke 22:28-30
28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Luke 12:32 “Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.
(2 Corinthians 5:1-5)

2 Timothy 2:12 . . .if we go on enduring, we will also rule together as kings; . . .

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshiped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.

Revelation 20:6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.
(1 Corinthians 15:50-57)

OK... I guess my philosophy is to use the word of God as a strainer for my beliefs. I throw into the strainer of the Word of God of my beliefs, take what goes through and throw out what doesn't.

So when I read:
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Seven churches represents everyone and not just the Jewish people. (Some belief it represents different epochs of time for God's Church -- which still means all believers).

And then He said that He hath made us priests - to minister to God and Kings to reign - it just doesn't seem to line up that only the 144,000 are those who rule with Jesus.

But, alas, that is my view.

We both still believe that Jesus died for our sins, we both believe we are washed by his own blood, and we both believe he is resurrected, seated at the right hand of the Father, coming again to reign with His saints.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The dead in Christ are those from Adam to Christ's return who have been called specifically by God, repented, kept the commandments, etc., etc. -and who have died/slept.
Yes -the thousand years begins when Christ returns

Sorry, but that's not right, the dead in Christ has nothing to do with all those from Adam and Eve.
That's man's teachings, Pastor's, Preacher's teachings.

 

[Faithofchristian]

By the definition of the word used, it signifies them AS servants of God. The seven seals, etc., do not refer to the 144,000 specifically.

The definition refers to a signet -such as used on a signet ring -which is a ring that was pressed into wax which sealed a letter -indicating that a specific person wrote the letter -and it was not changed until the seal/letter was opened.

It just means that God is specifically identifying them as his servants -and the servants of God keep his commandments (including sabbath and biblical holy days), minister, prophesy, etc. -and servants specifically for the time which follows.

The seals of God which are found throughout the book of Revelation.

What does it mean to have the seals of God in their for heads.

You do know the Seventh day Sabbath is no longer there.
Have you not read what Jesus Christ said in Matthew 11:28---"Come unto me you that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest"
Therefore we rest in Jesus Christ and not on any day of the week.

 

[Etritonakin]

The seals of God which are found throughout the book of Revelation.

What does it mean to have the seals of God in their for heads.

You do know the Seventh day Sabbath is no longer there.
Have you not read what Jesus Christ said in Matthew 11:28---"Come unto me you that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest"
Therefore we rest in Jesus Christ and not on any day of the week.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Faithofchristian]

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

Sorry it's not your in agree to disagree with.
But Jesus Christ your in agree to disagree with.
Seeing the book of Revelation is Jesus Christ book.
And seeing that Jesus Christ foretold what the seal of God is and seals represents.
In Jesus Christ book of Revelation.

 

[nPeace]

Thank you.... it is obvious that you all study.



OK... I guess my philosophy is to use the word of God as a strainer for my beliefs. I throw into the strainer of the Word of God of my beliefs, take what goes through and throw out what doesn't.

So when I read:
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Seven churches represents everyone and not just the Jewish people. (Some belief it represents different epochs of time for God's Church -- which still means all believers).

And then He said that He hath made us priests - to minister to God and Kings to reign - it just doesn't seem to line up that only the 144,000 are those who rule with Jesus.

But, alas, that is my view.

We both still believe that Jesus died for our sins, we both believe we are washed by his own blood, and we both believe he is resurrected, seated at the right hand of the Father, coming again to reign with His saints.

There is nothing wrong with this. It is perfectly fine.
Think of the formation of the Christian congregation in 33 CE. How many of those were anointed as sons of God? Were they not 120?
(Acts 1:15) During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (the number of people was altogether about 120) and said... (Acts 2:1-4)

So, we don't have to conclude that 144,000 persons were completed by the time John wrote the Revelation.
In fact, the evidence shows that the number was not completed by then, because I) Paul spoke of an apostasy - men rising up in the congregation, and leading many away from the teachings of Christ, once the apostles died. That happened. 2) The preaching of the good news of the kingdom was to be preached by the congregation of anointed ones, so Jesus was still actively seeing to it, that there would be spirit anointed ones who would know the truth, and be instrumental in declaring it in all the earth - despite the uprising of corrupt Christianity - which we see today.

So that would show that the gathering of the 144,000 continued long after John died.
I think a key to understanding this lies in us being able to understand that Christ did not begin ruling right away, when he went to heaven, so if we can discern when he did, we can work out some other important details - all related to the kingdom of God.

Matthew 24:45 is also key.
That's how I understand it.

 

[Kenny]

There is nothing wrong with this. It is perfectly fine.
Think of the formation of the Christian congregation in 33 CE. How many of those were anointed as sons of God? Were they not 120?
(Acts 1:15) During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (the number of people was altogether about 120) and said... (Acts 2:1-4)

So, we don't have to conclude that 144,000 persons were completed by the time John wrote the Revelation.
In fact, the evidence shows that the number was not completed by then, because I) Paul spoke of an apostasy - men rising up in the congregation, and leading many away from the teachings of Christ, once the apostles died. That happened. 2) The preaching of the good news of the kingdom was to be preached by the congregation of anointed ones, so Jesus was still actively seeing to it, that there would be spirit anointed ones who would know the truth, and be instrumental in declaring it in all the earth - despite the uprising of corrupt Christianity - which we see today.

So that would show that the gathering of the 144,000 continued long after John died.
I think a key to understanding this lies in us being able to understand that Christ did not begin ruling right away, when he went to heaven, so if we can discern when he did, we can work out some other important details - all related to the kingdom of God.

Matthew 24:45 is also key.
That's how I understand it.

Thank you for your viewpoint!

May God continue to guide you and surround you with His favor!

 

[nPeace]

Thank you for your viewpoint!

May God continue to guide you and surround you with His favor!

Thanks.

 

[OtherSheep]

The 144,000 Jews that the Bible mentions (Revelation 7:4-7) are the only ones who will go to heaven and reign with God. Interestingly, these 144,000 Jews are all virgins.

The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel are not Judaeans.
The Divided Kingdom is still in effect. Yes, it matters.
Israel is a marred pot which is repurposed, according to Jeremiah 18 and Matthew 21:43.

These virgins are undefiled with women, meaning strange women... other religions... according to the Bible.

The constellation Virgo may also have something to do with it. Revelation 12 says the woman is in the heavens and clothed with the sun... Virgo is bathed with the sun for 45 days running. The crown is another constellation. It is possibly a coincidence that Virgo the virgin is also called Bethulah.
Food for thought.

 

[nPeace]

Thank you for your viewpoint!

May God continue to guide you and surround you with His favor!

Just wondering though Ken. Your last two posts seems a bit dismissive.
It has got me wondering if it has anything to do with why you didn't answer my questions, which I really wanted to know.
I don't intentionally want to put you on the spot, so if you don't want to answer, I would accept, but it has got me interested in how you arrived at your position on those texts.