The 144.000 Jews.

[Faithofchristian]

There is nothing wrong with this. It is perfectly fine.
Think of the formation of the Christian congregation in 33 CE. How many of those were anointed as sons of God? Were they not 120?
(Acts 1:15) During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (the number of people was altogether about 120) and said... (Acts 2:1-4)

So, we don't have to conclude that 144,000 persons were completed by the time John wrote the Revelation.
In fact, the evidence shows that the number was not completed by then, because I) Paul spoke of an apostasy - men rising up in the congregation, and leading many away from the teachings of Christ, once the apostles died. That happened. 2) The preaching of the good news of the kingdom was to be preached by the congregation of anointed ones, so Jesus was still actively seeing to it, that there would be spirit anointed ones who would know the truth, and be instrumental in declaring it in all the earth - despite the uprising of corrupt Christianity - which we see today.

So that would show that the gathering of the 144,000 continued long after John died.
I think a key to understanding this lies in us being able to understand that Christ did not begin ruling right away, when he went to heaven, so if we can discern when he did, we can work out some other important details - all related to the kingdom of God.

Matthew 24:45 is also key.
That's how I understand it.

The 144.000 doesn't happen until during the tribulation. That's When God's elect people goes about proclaiming who the AntiChrist and the false prophet is, which brings out the 144.000 during the tribulation.

 

[nPeace]

The 144.000 doesn't happen until during the tribulation. That's When God's elect people goes about proclaiming who the AntiChrist and the false prophet is, which brings out the 144.000 during the tribulation.

"The 144.000 doesn't happen until during the tribulation."
What do you mean "doesn't happen"?

"That's When God's elect people goes about proclaiming who the AntiChrist and the false prophet is, which brings out the 144.000 during the tribulation."
What do you mean by "brings out the 144,000"?

 

[Faithofchristian]

"The 144.000 doesn't happen until during the tribulation."
What do you mean "doesn't happen"?

"That's When God's elect people goes about proclaiming who the AntiChrist and the false prophet is, which brings out the 144.000 during the tribulation."
What do you mean by "brings out the 144,000"?

The 144.000 doesn't come about, until God's elect people are delivered up before the AntiChrist, false prophet (Satan) during the tribulation. Which brings out the 144.000 to help God's elect people to testify against the AntiChrist. false prophet (Satan) during the tribulation.
God's elect people are the one's who goes about testifying to people during the tribulation against the AntiChrist, false prophet (Satan)

Which brings the 144.000 out to help God's elect people to testify against the AntiChrist,false prophet ( Satan) during the tribulation.
It's all there in the books of
Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and Revelation.

When God's elect people are delivered up before the AntiChrist false prophet (Satan)
At this time brings out the 144.000 to help God's elect people to testify against the AntiChrist,false prophet (Satan) during the tribulation.

 

[Kenny]

Just wondering though Ken. Your last two posts seems a bit dismissive.
It has got me wondering if it has anything to do with why you didn't answer my questions, which I really wanted to know.
I don't intentionally want to put you on the spot, so if you don't want to answer, I would accept, but it has got me interested in how you arrived at your position on those texts.

To be honest, I didn't want anything to be combative. (Not the last two but rather just the last one-and not dismissive but rather didn't want to be argumentative) I think the body of Christ has been at each others throats long enough.

Didn't know if our conversation was pushing the envelope.

I don't agree with the 144,000 position but it isn't a "let's argue over it" point for me. I do hope we can just share and not take issue with each other. I can continue if we can just share thoughts.

For an example:

Think of the formation of the Christian congregation in 33 CE. How many of those were anointed as sons of God? Were they not 120?
(Acts 1:15) During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (the number of people was altogether about 120) and said... (Acts 2:1-4)

IMV, if the baptism of power is the defining point as to whether or not they are the 144,000 then Gentiles would be included as Peter said to Cornelius, family and friends: '45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

If Gentiles can be filled like unto the Jewish 120, then the 144,000 wouldn't be just Jewish people.

Certainly, millions of people have received Jesus Christ as Lord so I'm not sure how one would determine 144,000.

Just my thoughts.

Do appreciate you and your demeanor as I do Deeje.

ADDENDUM:

I may have misunderstood the statement you were making about Acts 2

 

[Faithofchristian]

To be honest, I didn't want anything to be combative. (Not the last two but rather just the last one-and not dismissive but rather didn't want to be argumentative) I think the body of Christ has been at each others throats long enough.

Didn't know if our conversation was pushing the envelope.

I don't agree with the 144,000 position but it isn't a "let's argue over it" point for me. I do hope we can just share and not take issue with each other. I can continue if we can just share thoughts.

For an example:



IMV, if the baptism of power is the defining point as to whether or not they are the 144,000 then Gentiles would be included as Peter said to Cornelius, family and friends: '45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

If Gentiles can be filled like unto the Jewish 120, then the 144,000 wouldn't be just Jewish people.

Certainly, millions of people have received Jesus Christ as Lord so I'm not sure how one would determine 144,000.

Just my thoughts.

Do appreciate you and your demeanor as I do Deeje.

If you read Revelation 7:4-9, you will find the 144.000 comes out of the 12 tribes of Israel.
And then in Verse 9 The Great Multitude which no man could number, this being the Gentiles.
So the 144.000 are not a mixture of Israel and Gentiles as you suppose.

The 144.000 are the 12 tribes of Israel, which has nothing to do with Gentiles.

The Great Multitude are all Gentiles.
Revelation 7:9.
Revelation 7:4-8, 12 tribes of Israel.

 

[sooda]

If you read Revelation 7:4-9, you will find the 144.000 comes out of the 12 tribes of Israel.
And then in Verse 9 The Great Multitude which no man could number, this being the Gentiles.
So the 144.000 are not a mixture of Israel and Gentiles as you suppose.

The 144.000 are the 12 tribes of Israel, which has nothing to do with Gentiles.

The Great Multitude are all Gentiles.
Revelation 7:9.
Revelation 7:4-8, 12 tribes of Israel.

Preterists believe the 144,000 are Jewish Christians, sealed for deliverance from the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

 

[Kenny]

If you read Revelation 7:4-9, you will find the 144.000 comes out of the 12 tribes of Israel.
And then in Verse 9 The Great Multitude which no man could number, this being the Gentiles.
So the 144.000 are not a mixture of Israel and Gentiles as you suppose.

The 144.000 are the 12 tribes of Israel, which has nothing to do with Gentiles.

The Great Multitude are all Gentiles.
Revelation 7:9.
Revelation 7:4-8, 12 tribes of Israel.

I agree. I wasn't trying to say that.

My point was that if "the baptism of fire" was the qualification for being the 144,000, then Gentiles would be included. Thus it would be a wrong position.

I agree that that the 144,000 are strictly of Jewish decent (natural and not spiritual - though spiritual in the sense that the are followers of Yeshua Hamashiach).

 

[sooda]

I agree. I wasn't trying to say that.

My point was that if "the baptism of fire" was the qualification for being the 144,000, then Gentiles would be included. Thus it would be a wrong position.

I agree that that the 144,000 are strictly of Jewish decent (natural and not spiritual - though spiritual in the sense that the are followers of Yeshua Hamashiach).

The tribulation was local and it was over in 70 AD. This futurism is the stuff of Cyrus Scofield and Hal Lindsey. There was ONLY one tribulation.

See Revelation 1:9 John says "your brother in tribulation"

 

[Faithofchristian]

I agree. I wasn't trying to say that.

My point was that if "the baptism of fire" was the qualification for being the 144,000, then Gentiles would be included. Thus it would be a wrong position.

I agree that that the 144,000 are strictly of Jewish decent (natural and not spiritual - though spiritual in the sense that the are followers of Yeshua Hamashiach).

I see what your saying, I agree.
As for "Baptism of fire"
There's no where in the whole book of Revelation that indicates anything about baptism of fire.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Preterists believe the 144,000 are Jewish Christians, sealed for deliverance from the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Are you still on that about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D
As there's no where in the whole book of Revelation that Jesus Christ indicated the destruction of Jerusalem.
You listen to much to man's teachings. Need to listen to the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[sooda]

Are you still on that about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D
As there's no where in the whole book of Revelation that Jesus Christ indicated the destruction of Jerusalem.
You listen to much to man's teachings. Need to listen to the Lord Jesus Christ

Revelation says there is NO Temple..

Jesus did remind the people of the Abomination of Desolation under the Greek Antiochus.. and told them when the saw it again, they were to flee to the mountains.

 

[sooda]

I see what your saying, I agree.
As for "Baptism of fire"
There's no where in the whole book of Revelation that indicates anything about baptism of fire.

The Roman army and the Syrians, Egyptians and Arabs who also fought under Titus were catapulting fire on to the city of Jerusalem.

 

[1213]

Ok, the question is, Who are they. That came out of the great tribulation and washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb?

Sorry, I don’t know more about them than what is written in Revelation. And I think here has been said all that is said about them in the Bible.

 

[nPeace]

The 144.000 doesn't come about, until God's elect people are delivered up before the AntiChrist, false prophet (Satan) during the tribulation. Which brings out the 144.000 to help God's elect people to testify against the AntiChrist. false prophet (Satan) during the tribulation.
God's elect people are the one's who goes about testifying to people during the tribulation against the AntiChrist, false prophet (Satan)

Which brings the 144.000 out to help God's elect people to testify against the AntiChrist,false prophet ( Satan) during the tribulation.
It's all there in the books of
Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and Revelation.

When God's elect people are delivered up before the AntiChrist false prophet (Satan)
At this time brings out the 144.000 to help God's elect people to testify against the AntiChrist,false prophet (Satan) during the tribulation.

I'm really trying to understand you, but I am not getting it.
You keep saying things like "come about", and "doesn't happen", but that's not helping me.
Come about how? Happen how? Where do they come from, What is it they come out of?
If you are saying, the twelve tribes of Israel, what do you understand that to mean?
I'm not following, sorry.
Perhaps using a scripture as you are saying these things might help.

 

[Kenny]

The tribulation was local and it was over in 70 AD. This futurism is the stuff of Cyrus Scofield and Hal Lindsey. There was ONLY one tribulation.

See Revelation 1:9 John says "your brother in tribulation"

I’m not a subscriber to preterían.

Future can be found revelation as well as in the Epistles.

 

[sooda]

I’m not a subscriber to preterían.

Future can be found revelation as well as in the Epistles.

Except Revelation is a letter addressed to the seven existing churches and states that it will all happen soon.

Scofield hijacked Protestantism.

 

[nPeace]

To be honest, I didn't want anything to be combative. (Not the last two but rather just the last one-and not dismissive but rather didn't want to be argumentative) I think the body of Christ has been at each others throats long enough.

Didn't know if our conversation was pushing the envelope.

I don't agree with the 144,000 position but it isn't a "let's argue over it" point for me. I do hope we can just share and not take issue with each other. I can continue if we can just share thoughts.

For an example:



IMV, if the baptism of power is the defining point as to whether or not they are the 144,000 then Gentiles would be included as Peter said to Cornelius, family and friends: '45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

If Gentiles can be filled like unto the Jewish 120, then the 144,000 wouldn't be just Jewish people.

Certainly, millions of people have received Jesus Christ as Lord so I'm not sure how one would determine 144,000.

Just my thoughts.

Do appreciate you and your demeanor as I do Deeje.

ADDENDUM:

I may have misunderstood the statement you were making about Acts 2

Yes. I appreciate that about you, that you don't like to get into conflict.
I don't think we disagree with the fact that the 144,000 are made up of people of all nations. I think we established that already.
I was referring to an earlier post, though. However, it isn't a problem. You just peaked my interest in understanding how you came to your view.
I can pass it over though. Perhaps it may come up another time, and I might get your view then.

 

[Kenny]

I see what your saying, I agree.
As for "Baptism of fire"
There's no where in the whole book of Revelation that indicates anything about baptism of fire.

I would agree!

Baptism of fire is only found in the Gospels and Acts chapter 1and 2.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The 144,000 Jews that the Bible mentions (Revelation 7:4-7) are the only ones who will go to heaven and reign with God. Interestingly, these 144,000 Jews are all virgins.

I'm laughing. Best joke in a while.

 

[Kenny]

Yes. I appreciate that about you, that you don't like to get into conflict.
I don't think we disagree with the fact that the 144,000 are made up of people of all nations. I think we established that already.
I was referring to an earlier post, though. However, it isn't a problem. You just peaked my interest in understanding how you came to your view.
I can pass it over though. Perhaps it may come up another time, and I might get your view then.

Anytime, my friend. I love good discussions!