The 144.000 Jews.

[Kenny]

Except Revelation is a letter addressed to the seven existing churches and states that it will all happen soon.

Scofield hijacked Protestantism.

In as much as it says that it is writing down those things that were, that are, and those things which are to come, I would have to disagree with your position.

 

[metis]

The "144,000" wasn't written that way because the highest number at the time of Jesus was 1000. Thus, it is likely that the original reference was more like 12 12's 1000's. Since these numbers we know had a symbolic reference, it could possibly mean completion upon completion in numbers too high to count. And since the reference in Revelation deals with the survival and growth of the Church, this interpretation would make sense, imo.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I would agree!

Baptism of fire is only found in the Gospels and Acts chapter 1and 2.

Ok now I really understand what your implying.
You do know. It's not a Baptism.
But the Spirit of God came upon the
12 disciples of Jesus Christ
Which is found in Acts 2:1-4, Which caused the 12 disciples of Jesus Christ to speak in different languages other than their own language to people and this will happen again during the tribulation, when God's elect people are delivered up before the AntiChrist. This is what brings about the 144.000 of Israel to stand up against the AntiChrist also.

1-- "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place"

2--"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting"

3--"And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them"

4--"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance"

5--"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven"

6--"Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language"

What you have read here happens again during the soon coming tribulation,
When God's elect people are delivered up before the AntiChrist and the Spirit of God speaks through His elect people.
This is what draws out the 144.000 by hearing God's elect people speaking in different languages to the AntiChrist.

AntiChrist means, one who stands in the place of Christ.
Therefore when the AntiChrist comes, he will deceive by deception people of earth into believing that he is the real Christ Jesus.
And many people including many Christians into believing he is the real Christ Jesus.
All because alot of people has no clue or idea who comes first.
Will be the AntiChrist or the real Jesus Christ that comes first?

 

[sooda]

In as much as it says that it is writing down those things that were, that are, and those things which are to come, I would have to disagree with your position.

Soon. Within a generation. Futurism is the product of a political manipulation by Scofield and Christian Zionism.

 

[Kenny]

Ok now I really understand what your implying.
You do know. It's not a Baptism.

I'm not sure I would agree here (though not a big issue), for two reasons:

1) Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: (John the Baptist called it a baptism
2) (there are more than one baptism) Hebrews 6 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit

But the Spirit of God came upon the
12 disciples of Jesus Christ
Which is found in Acts 2:1-4, Which caused the 12 disciples of Jesus Christ to speak in different languages other than their own language to people and this will happen again during the tribulation, when God's elect people are delivered up before the AntiChrist. This is what brings about the 144.000 of Israel to stand up against the AntiChrist also.

I think there is more to this. I set up about 12 people speaking two language to a larger group of people. No one in the audience understood one word in either language.

In Acts there were 3,000 and dozen of languages. I believe there were two gifts in operation:

1. Divers kinds of tongues (not necessarily known languages)
2. Interpretation of tongues - as the sounds hit their ears - the Holy Spirit interpreted it in their minds.

What you have read here happens again during the soon coming tribulation,
When God's elect people are delivered up before the AntiChrist and the Spirit of God speaks through His elect people.
This is what draws out the 144.000 by hearing God's elect people speaking in different languages to the AntiChrist.

It could be. I don't see that. Knowing that I could be wrong, I believe in the rapture of the church. I believe that it is the removal of the Body of Christ (the time of the Gentiles) that brings forth the return of the Jews taking the Gospel--the word of God to which it was entrusted to from the beginning.

AntiChrist means, one who stands in the place of Christ.
Therefore when the AntiChrist comes, he will deceive by deception people of earth into believing that he is the real Christ Jesus.
And many people including many Christians into believing he is the real Christ Jesus.
All because alot of people has no clue or idea who comes first.
Will be the AntiChrist or the real Jesus Christ that comes first?

Yes... there is a deception that even Christians will succumb to.

 

[Kenny]

In the interest of just not just cutting off

There is nothing wrong with this. It is perfectly fine.
Think of the formation of the Christian congregation in 33 CE. How many of those were anointed as sons of God? Were they not 120?
(Acts 1:15) During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (the number of people was altogether about 120) and said... (Acts 2:1-4)

Couldn't agree more!

So, we don't have to conclude that 144,000 persons were completed by the time John wrote the Revelation.
In fact, the evidence shows that the number was not completed by then, because I) Paul spoke of an apostasy - men rising up in the congregation, and leading many away from the teachings of Christ, once the apostles died. That happened

I think I must have misunderstood a previous post about the 144,000.

1. Absolutely, God has not finished yet
2. Yes, the Church is comprised of a spiritual body (not a physical one) and it is a spiritual Kingdom. I believe we talked about that (without trying to find where). But I didn't know, or misunderstood, that you were referring to the 144,000.
3. I believe that when Jesus comes back, He will come back with all the saints back to earth and there will be an earth to rule and people will be living there. (I think we agree on this part.)
4. But I think the 144,000 is, in fact, Jewish people. My position is that there is a rapture and the age of the Gentiles is finished when the rapture happens. The Gospel is then given back to the Jewish people (who were always in charge of the scriptures--as Paul said). God's covenant with the Jewish nation will never be broken.

May you have a God filled day!

Ken

 

[sooda]

I'm not sure I would agree here (though not a big issue), for two reasons:

1) Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: (John the Baptist called it a baptism
2) (there are more than one baptism) Hebrews 6 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit



I think there is more to this. I set up about 12 people speaking two language to a larger group of people. No one in the audience understood one word in either language.

In Acts there were 3,000 and dozen of languages. I believe there were two gifts in operation:

1. Divers kinds of tongues (not necessarily known languages)
2. Interpretation of tongues - as the sounds hit their ears - the Holy Spirit interpreted it in their minds.

It could be. I don't see that. Knowing that I could be wrong, I believe in the rapture of the church. I believe that it is the removal of the Body of Christ (the time of the Gentiles) that brings forth the return of the Jews taking the Gospel--the word of God to which it was entrusted to from the beginning.



Yes... there is a deception that even Christians will succumb to.

There have been many AntiChrists.

 

[Kenny]

There have been many AntiChrists.

True... but there is a reference to THE Anti-Christ. Likewise there are many who have come saying "I am the Messiah" but there is still THE Messiah.

 

[sooda]

True... but there is a reference to THE Anti-Christ. Likewise there are many who have come saying "I am the Messiah" but there is still THE Messiah.

Revelation was a letter written to the 7 churches in the first century,, They understood the symbolism perfectly. Futurism was a political ploy by Cyrus Scofield and Samuel Untermyer.

 

[Fool]

The 144,000 Jews that the Bible mentions (Revelation 7:4-7) are the only ones who will go to heaven and reign with God. Interestingly, these 144,000 Jews are all virgins. For it is written:

Revelation 14:1
1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

That would mean that even people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob do not belong to these 144,000 people. And that surprises me very much, for who are these people and why are they so special that they even stand above these 3 fathers?

the name is a revelation of John 14:22 and a realization, a knowing, an imprint of consciousness and awareness.


christed, baptized in the name


i baptize you with fire, i come to bring fire, light it up!!! LIGHT IT UP!!! LIGHT IT UP!!!

Are these maybe the "lost sheep" Jesus once mentioned?

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24

What do you think?

lost arnion, are still sheep


Strongs's #721: arnion - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

 

[Kenny]

Revelation was a letter written to the 7 churches in the first century,, They understood the symbolism perfectly. Futurism was a political ploy by Cyrus Scofield and Samuel Untermyer.

#101

 

[sooda]

the name is a revelation of John 14:22 and a realization, a knowing, an imprint of consciousness and awareness.


christed, baptized in the name


i baptize you with fire, i come to bring fire, light it up!!! LIGHT IT UP!!! LIGHT IT UP!!!




lost arnion, are still sheep


Strongs's #721: arnion - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

You do know that Titus was lobbing fire into Jerusalem with his catapults.

 

[nPeace]

In the interest of just not just cutting off


Couldn't agree more!



I think I must have misunderstood a previous post about the 144,000.

1. Absolutely, God has not finished yet
2. Yes, the Church is comprised of a spiritual body (not a physical one) and it is a spiritual Kingdom. I believe we talked about that (without trying to find where). But I didn't know, or misunderstood, that you were referring to the 144,000.
3. I believe that when Jesus comes back, He will come back with all the saints back to earth and there will be an earth to rule and people will be living there. (I think we agree on this part.)
4. But I think the 144,000 is, in fact, Jewish people. My position is that there is a rapture and the age of the Gentiles is finished when the rapture happens. The Gospel is then given back to the Jewish people (who were always in charge of the scriptures--as Paul said). God's covenant with the Jewish nation will never be broken.

May you have a God filled day!

Ken

Thanks. I'll get back to you later.

 

[metis]

Yes... there is a deception that even Christians will succumb to.

Trump?

 

[nPeace]

In the interest of just not just cutting off


Couldn't agree more!



I think I must have misunderstood a previous post about the 144,000.

1. Absolutely, God has not finished yet
2. Yes, the Church is comprised of a spiritual body (not a physical one) and it is a spiritual Kingdom. I believe we talked about that (without trying to find where). But I didn't know, or misunderstood, that you were referring to the 144,000.
3. I believe that when Jesus comes back, He will come back with all the saints back to earth and there will be an earth to rule and people will be living there. (I think we agree on this part.)
4. But I think the 144,000 is, in fact, Jewish people. My position is that there is a rapture and the age of the Gentiles is finished when the rapture happens. The Gospel is then given back to the Jewish people (who were always in charge of the scriptures--as Paul said). God's covenant with the Jewish nation will never be broken.

May you have a God filled day!

Ken

1) Can we agree that once the number is complete the 144,000 is complete, and God is finished with that? As you said, 3) "...when Jesus comes back, He will come back with all the saints..." I do agree with that, but not as you do. I believe this return applies to 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, and Matthew 25:31-46, and also Revelation 6:14-16. This return is specifically to fulfill Psalm 110:2 where Jesus will fight against God's enemies... and win, of course.
2) Yes. The 144,000 is a spiritual nation - neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek.
3) Base on the fact that the kingdom is heavenly, Jesus and the anointed are heavenly, the kingdom rules from heaven, not earth. It rules the earth.
Persons believe that the kingdom comes down to earth, but I think they interpret that based on Revelation 21:2-4. However, if one takes that literally to mean the kingdom comes to earth, then I think the earth would not only need to grow considerably, but also stretch out like a plane, to accommodate it. Revelation 21:10-14.
There is no need to conclude that Jesus needs to return to earth in his immortal glorified body.
4) Can you describe what is the rapture, to you? How is the Jewish nation in the new covenant?

 

[Kenny]

Trump?

If we make him a Messiah... yup!

 

[Fool]

You do know that Titus was lobbing fire into Jerusalem with his catapults.

metaphorically the spirit is associated with light and fire.


Revelation 4:5
And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

 

[Kenny]

1) Can we agree that once the number is complete the 144,000 is complete, and God is finished with that? As you said, 3) "...when Jesus comes back, He will come back with all the saints..." I do agree with that, but not as you do. I believe this return applies to 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, and Matthew 25:31-46, and also Revelation 6:14-16. This return is specifically to fulfill Psalm 110:2 where Jesus will fight against God's enemies... and win, of course.
2) Yes. The 144,000 is a spiritual nation - neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek.
3) Base on the fact that the kingdom is heavenly, Jesus and the anointed are heavenly, the kingdom rules from heaven, not earth. It rules the earth.
Persons believe that the kingdom comes down to earth, but I think they interpret that based on Revelation 21:2-4. However, if one takes that literally to mean the kingdom comes to earth, then I think the earth would not only need to grow considerably, but also stretch out like a plane, to accommodate it. Revelation 21:10-14.
There is no need to conclude that Jesus needs to return to earth in his immortal glorified body.
4) Can you describe what is the rapture, to you? How is the Jewish nation in the new covenant?

LOL... we are running the full gamete ! Will get back to this one.

 

[Faithofchristian]

1) Can we agree that once the number is complete the 144,000 is complete, and God is finished with that? As you said, 3) "...when Jesus comes back, He will come back with all the saints..." I do agree with that, but not as you do. I believe this return applies to 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, and Matthew 25:31-46, and also Revelation 6:14-16. This return is specifically to fulfill Psalm 110:2 where Jesus will fight against God's enemies... and win, of course.
2) Yes. The 144,000 is a spiritual nation - neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek.
3) Base on the fact that the kingdom is heavenly, Jesus and the anointed are heavenly, the kingdom rules from heaven, not earth. It rules the earth.
Persons believe that the kingdom comes down to earth, but I think they interpret that based on Revelation 21:2-4. However, if one takes that literally to mean the kingdom comes to earth, then I think the earth would not only need to grow considerably, but also stretch out like a plane, to accommodate it. Revelation 21:10-14.
There is no need to conclude that Jesus needs to return to earth in his immortal glorified body.
4) Can you describe what is the rapture, to you? How is the Jewish nation in the new covenant?

You do know that Revelation 6:14-16 has nothing at all to do with Jesus Christ.

However Jesus Christ can not return until the last Prophecy happens first.

Jesus Christ given in his book of Revelation the last Prophecy, that when this last prophecy happens the tribulation is over and then Christ Jesus returns.

So what good is the rapture going to do. That when the last Prophecy happens brings the end to the tribulation and the return of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ can not return until the last Prophecy that Jesus Christ given happens first in his book of Revelation.

 

[nPeace]

You do know that Revelation 6:14-16 has nothing at all to do with Jesus Christ.
LOL. Sorry. That was typing error. That should have been Revelation 16:14-16.

However Jesus Christ can not return until the last Prophecy happens first.

Jesus Christ given in his book of Revelation the last Prophecy, that when this last prophecy happens the tribulation is over and then Christ Jesus returns.

So what good is the rapture going to do. That when the last Prophecy happens brings the end to the tribulation and the return of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ can not return until the last Prophecy that Jesus Christ given happens first in his book of Revelation.

What is the last prophecy?
So you are saying that Jesus Christ is not coming, as described at 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, and Matthew 25:31-46?
The disciples did ask this... "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Matthew 24:3

All of Revelation is prophecy.
So there are some prophecies in the book of Revelation that will be fulfilled after Christ's coming.
For example...
The resurrection cannot take place before Jesus coming, and that's just one. Agreed.