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The Alignment of the Christian God

LanternBearer

New Member
Now this is my first post on this site and I'm not really looking for arguments or shooting down ideas, but I want to learn as I go through this spiritual journey. I have recently converted from Catholicism to Wicca. I have had several questions that concern all different denominations of Christianity, but I'll start with this simple one.

During my conversion, I found out 'Sin' isn't exactly what I thought it was since I was a kid. I thought Sin was all that was considered 'evil', but I realized that it is actually anything that goes against the Commandments or "The Lord's word". It may consider what is evil, such as killing and stealing, but in the Bible, it elaborates on many other things that don't seem to be considered evil such as tattoos or wearing two different kinds of fabric.

God of Abraham had committed serious and tragic acts such as the flood, but when I was a kid, I didn't think much of it; thought simply that the world was full of evil humans and he needed to reset it. But I soon realized that the world's animals had perished as well, and I doubt animals can be considered evil. Then there was the story of Job. When I read through that story, I came to realize that maybe God isn't actually considered good, he had tormented a faithful follower for a bet with Satan. He had committed acts that people would consider evil, but he is praised as a God of good. He had answered prayers and blessed people, yes, but I believe only his followers, as for anyone who didn't believe in him, they didn't get the same treatment, sometimes worse.

Jesus has always been a beacon of good and hope, and I agree, he had not committed any dark or cruel acts while he lived. But he differs from his father. They may be one and the same to most or all Christians, but to me they both differ heavily in choices. While his father would punish heavily, Jesus would forgive and ask others to love.

Lastly, I had believed access to heaven was simply be a good person in life, but right before moments of questioning my faith, I came to realize it's "Not enough" as most or all Christians would say. "Believe that Jesus died for our sins, pray for forgiveness" and you will get into heaven. But that would mean a ruthless killer will a murder streak would have a better chance of getting into heaven than a pure hearted atheist who had done little to no wrong in life.

A good alignment isn't held higher than belief. The killer would have a good chance in access to the 'Kingdom' if he asks for forgiveness and praises Jesus' name right before death. But why? If a righteous heart isn't as important as believing in the deity, then is Abraham's God truly good?

In Dungeons and Dragons, there's a list of fictional Gods and Goddesses with their alignment to the side (Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful, Neutral). I would have to say that Abraham's God is possibly Lawful Neutral at best. Some people actually state that he is evil. Some say he's actually Satan, deceiving the Christians. There's a lot of speculation going on because of these thoughts.
 

LanternBearer

New Member
Thank you for welcoming me, Outhouse.

I use to think the Bible was filled with metaphors and guidelines to life, but a lot of things are taken literal. Like the blood and body of Jesus. Found out when the wine and cracker is blessed, it's suppose to be the actual body and blood. I thought Christianity was against blood and human body consumption.
 

Aset's Flames

Viperine Asetian
Now this is my first post on this site and I'm not really looking for arguments or shooting down ideas, but I want to learn as I go through this spiritual journey. I have recently converted from Catholicism to Wicca. I have had several questions that concern all different denominations of Christianity, but I'll start with this simple one.

During my conversion, I found out 'Sin' isn't exactly what I thought it was since I was a kid. I thought Sin was all that was considered 'evil', but I realized that it is actually anything that goes against the Commandments or "The Lord's word". It may consider what is evil, such as killing and stealing, but in the Bible, it elaborates on many other things that don't seem to be considered evil such as tattoos or wearing two different kinds of fabric.

God of Abraham had committed serious and tragic acts such as the flood, but when I was a kid, I didn't think much of it; thought simply that the world was full of evil humans and he needed to reset it. But I soon realized that the world's animals had perished as well, and I doubt animals can be considered evil. Then there was the story of Job. When I read through that story, I came to realize that maybe God isn't actually considered good, he had tormented a faithful follower for a bet with Satan. He had committed acts that people would consider evil, but he is praised as a God of good. He had answered prayers and blessed people, yes, but I believe only his followers, as for anyone who didn't believe in him, they didn't get the same treatment, sometimes worse.

Jesus has always been a beacon of good and hope, and I agree, he had not committed any dark or cruel acts while he lived. But he differs from his father. They may be one and the same to most or all Christians, but to me they both differ heavily in choices. While his father would punish heavily, Jesus would forgive and ask others to love.

Lastly, I had believed access to heaven was simply be a good person in life, but right before moments of questioning my faith, I came to realize it's "Not enough" as most or all Christians would say. "Believe that Jesus died for our sins, pray for forgiveness" and you will get into heaven. But that would mean a ruthless killer will a murder streak would have a better chance of getting into heaven than a pure hearted atheist who had done little to no wrong in life.

A good alignment isn't held higher than belief. The killer would have a good chance in access to the 'Kingdom' if he asks for forgiveness and praises Jesus' name right before death. But why? If a righteous heart isn't as important as believing in the deity, then is Abraham's God truly good?

In Dungeons and Dragons, there's a list of fictional Gods and Goddesses with their alignment to the side (Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful, Neutral). I would have to say that Abraham's God is possibly Lawful Neutral at best. Some people actually state that he is evil. Some say he's actually Satan, deceiving the Christians. There's a lot of speculation going on because of these thoughts.

I see that you have not let go of all Christian beliefs yet and have not taken in all Wiccan ones yet judging by your answers.

Assuming that this deity exist I would say that he is both Lawful and Evil.

He requires others to worship him and follow his rules or tortures them for enternity as well as slaughtering and killing innocents.

For example in the flood, where all of the children at that time wicked and vile?
 

Thana

Lady
Now this is my first post on this site and I'm not really looking for arguments or shooting down ideas, but I want to learn as I go through this spiritual journey. I have recently converted from Catholicism to Wicca. I have had several questions that concern all different denominations of Christianity, but I'll start with this simple one.

During my conversion, I found out 'Sin' isn't exactly what I thought it was since I was a kid. I thought Sin was all that was considered 'evil', but I realized that it is actually anything that goes against the Commandments or "The Lord's word". It may consider what is evil, such as killing and stealing, but in the Bible, it elaborates on many other things that don't seem to be considered evil such as tattoos or wearing two different kinds of fabric

God of Abraham had committed serious and tragic acts such as the flood, but when I was a kid, I didn't think much of it; thought simply that the world was full of evil humans and he needed to reset it. But I soon realized that the world's animals had perished as well, and I doubt animals can be considered evil. Then there was the story of Job. When I read through that story, I came to realize that maybe God isn't actually considered good, he had tormented a faithful follower for a bet with Satan. He had committed acts that people would consider evil, but he is praised as a God of good. He had answered prayers and blessed people, yes, but I believe only his followers, as for anyone who didn't believe in him, they didn't get the same treatment, sometimes worse.

Jesus has always been a beacon of good and hope, and I agree, he had not committed any dark or cruel acts while he lived. But he differs from his father. They may be one and the same to most or all Christians, but to me they both differ heavily in choices. While his father would punish heavily, Jesus would forgive and ask others to love.

Lastly, I had believed access to heaven was simply be a good person in life, but right before moments of questioning my faith, I came to realize it's "Not enough" as most or all Christians would say. "Believe that Jesus died for our sins, pray for forgiveness" and you will get into heaven. But that would mean a ruthless killer will a murder streak would have a better chance of getting into heaven than a pure hearted atheist who had done little to no wrong in life.

A good alignment isn't held higher than belief. The killer would have a good chance in access to the 'Kingdom' if he asks for forgiveness and praises Jesus' name right before death. But why? If a righteous heart isn't as important as believing in the deity, then is Abraham's God truly good?

In Dungeons and Dragons, there's a list of fictional Gods and Goddesses with their alignment to the side (Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful, Neutral). I would have to say that Abraham's God is possibly Lawful Neutral at best. Some people actually state that he is evil. Some say he's actually Satan, deceiving the Christians. There's a lot of speculation going on because of these thoughts.

There are a lot of misconceptions here. For example, Gentiles like us don't follow Jewish Law so the whole no tattoo's/fabric thing doesn't apply to us.
Also you can't just say 'Forgive me Jesus I believe in you' on your deathbed and you get some automatic ticket to heaven. That's not how it works. Repentence, true Repentence is a changed heart not empty words.

But I've got a feeling my words aren't going to mean much so... :shrug:
 

Aset's Flames

Viperine Asetian
The old testament laws never said for people of the Jewish race only, Gentiles that converted had to follow them.

Also Latern Bearer as you are Wiccan you surely know the power of humans over reality. It is very possible that the Christians' own will power is what helped them.
 

LanternBearer

New Member
Thana, don't worry, no matter what is thrown my way, I take it and I think on it. Your words aren't meaningless.

Aset's Flame, You make a good point. But the only belief I still have in Christianity is what Jesus taught. Well, not all of it. "Love one another, do not judge" such as that. I've taken up Wicca for the fact that it appreciates nature and it's more open to spirituality and freedom. Nature provides for us, we all know this. Food, water, things that we need to survive. I wanted to appreciate that.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Now this is my first post on this site and I'm not really looking for arguments or shooting down ideas, but I want to learn as I go through this spiritual journey. I have recently converted from Catholicism to Wicca. I have had several questions that concern all different denominations of Christianity, but I'll start with this simple one.

During my conversion, I found out 'Sin' isn't exactly what I thought it was since I was a kid. I thought Sin was all that was considered 'evil', but I realized that it is actually anything that goes against the Commandments or "The Lord's word". It may consider what is evil, such as killing and stealing, but in the Bible, it elaborates on many other things that don't seem to be considered evil such as tattoos or wearing two different kinds of fabric.

God of Abraham had committed serious and tragic acts such as the flood, but when I was a kid, I didn't think much of it; thought simply that the world was full of evil humans and he needed to reset it. But I soon realized that the world's animals had perished as well, and I doubt animals can be considered evil. Then there was the story of Job. When I read through that story, I came to realize that maybe God isn't actually considered good, he had tormented a faithful follower for a bet with Satan. He had committed acts that people would consider evil, but he is praised as a God of good. He had answered prayers and blessed people, yes, but I believe only his followers, as for anyone who didn't believe in him, they didn't get the same treatment, sometimes worse.

Jesus has always been a beacon of good and hope, and I agree, he had not committed any dark or cruel acts while he lived. But he differs from his father. They may be one and the same to most or all Christians, but to me they both differ heavily in choices. While his father would punish heavily, Jesus would forgive and ask others to love.

Lastly, I had believed access to heaven was simply be a good person in life, but right before moments of questioning my faith, I came to realize it's "Not enough" as most or all Christians would say. "Believe that Jesus died for our sins, pray for forgiveness" and you will get into heaven. But that would mean a ruthless killer will a murder streak would have a better chance of getting into heaven than a pure hearted atheist who had done little to no wrong in life.

A good alignment isn't held higher than belief. The killer would have a good chance in access to the 'Kingdom' if he asks for forgiveness and praises Jesus' name right before death. But why? If a righteous heart isn't as important as believing in the deity, then is Abraham's God truly good?

In Dungeons and Dragons, there's a list of fictional Gods and Goddesses with their alignment to the side (Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful, Neutral). I would have to say that Abraham's God is possibly Lawful Neutral at best. Some people actually state that he is evil. Some say he's actually Satan, deceiving the Christians. There's a lot of speculation going on because of these thoughts.

I dont know if this will help. Im was non religious. Took the sacraments four years ago. Left the practice about a year and a half ago. I still have soft spots for it.

Take the Eucharist. When you see the Eucharist, do you "see" Jesus Christ? Is He "actually standing" in front of you when you are given communion? Or do you taste bread and wine i stead?

The priest told me Catholics do not believe that literal Only means by our five senses. It goes the same aith the Bible. Read the Bible as you would see the Eucharist. Are you actually "hearing" God's voice when you read? Do you believe a spirit actually killed people?

I think you are looking at the Bible literal when it is not.

That and each Church has their own spin on teaching the Bible. My parish didnt put much emphasis on Mary but down the street, they ask for her blessings every Mass. This is in the states.

It also depends on where you from too. So, look at context, culture, and read the bible and catechism. Everyone is human priest included.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Now this is my first post on this site and I'm not really looking for arguments or shooting down ideas, but I want to learn as I go through this spiritual journey. I have recently converted from Catholicism to Wicca. I have had several questions that concern all different denominations of Christianity, but I'll start with this simple one.

During my conversion, I found out 'Sin' isn't exactly what I thought it was since I was a kid. I thought Sin was all that was considered 'evil', but I realized that it is actually anything that goes against the Commandments or "The Lord's word". It may consider what is evil, such as killing and stealing, but in the Bible, it elaborates on many other things that don't seem to be considered evil such as tattoos or wearing two different kinds of fabric.

God of Abraham had committed serious and tragic acts such as the flood, but when I was a kid, I didn't think much of it; thought simply that the world was full of evil humans and he needed to reset it. But I soon realized that the world's animals had perished as well, and I doubt animals can be considered evil. Then there was the story of Job. When I read through that story, I came to realize that maybe God isn't actually considered good, he had tormented a faithful follower for a bet with Satan. He had committed acts that people would consider evil, but he is praised as a God of good. He had answered prayers and blessed people, yes, but I believe only his followers, as for anyone who didn't believe in him, they didn't get the same treatment, sometimes worse.

Jesus has always been a beacon of good and hope, and I agree, he had not committed any dark or cruel acts while he lived. But he differs from his father. They may be one and the same to most or all Christians, but to me they both differ heavily in choices. While his father would punish heavily, Jesus would forgive and ask others to love.

Lastly, I had believed access to heaven was simply be a good person in life, but right before moments of questioning my faith, I came to realize it's "Not enough" as most or all Christians would say. "Believe that Jesus died for our sins, pray for forgiveness" and you will get into heaven. But that would mean a ruthless killer will a murder streak would have a better chance of getting into heaven than a pure hearted atheist who had done little to no wrong in life.

A good alignment isn't held higher than belief. The killer would have a good chance in access to the 'Kingdom' if he asks for forgiveness and praises Jesus' name right before death. But why? If a righteous heart isn't as important as believing in the deity, then is Abraham's God truly good?

In Dungeons and Dragons, there's a list of fictional Gods and Goddesses with their alignment to the side (Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful, Neutral). I would have to say that Abraham's God is possibly Lawful Neutral at best. Some people actually state that he is evil. Some say he's actually Satan, deceiving the Christians. There's a lot of speculation going on because of these thoughts.
I would say Lawful Neutral, Lawful Good or Neutral Good. As any good D&D player knows, Lawful Good does NOT necessarily mean Lawful Nice. ;)
 

LanternBearer

New Member
Thank you, Carlita for your input. I never took it literal. But I found out there are people who take it literal. Even though I took things metaphorically or spiritually or some of the other, they didn't seem right. The Christian God isn't offering me or teaching me anything I agree with. I respect everyone's right to believe what they want, I don't judge. I also have a problem with family members judging me and claiming I worship Satan and whenever I tried explaining myself, they claim it was a demon talking. I don't understand how people can be this way. It rattles my brain.
 

Aset's Flames

Viperine Asetian
Thank you, Carlita for your input. I never took it literal. But I found out there are people who take it literal. Even though I took things metaphorically or spiritually or some of the other, they didn't seem right. The Christian God isn't offering me or teaching me anything I agree with. I respect everyone's right to believe what they want, I don't judge. I also have a problem with family members judging me and claiming I worship Satan and whenever I tried explaining myself, they claim it was a demon talking. I don't understand how people can be this way. It rattles my brain.

People like to think that way becuase lies are more comforting than truths.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
There's a lot of speculation going on because of these thoughts.
My thought is that you are getting overly concerned, overly literal and over-analyzing books that were written by well-meaning ancient writers. I suggest taking the good things of Jesus and not worrying about any dogma that doesn't square with modern reason. I would look to more modern and liberal religious thinkers too. I believe in Jesus but think many Bible stories and dogma have flaws.

It just seems odd to me that these ancient stories hold so much modern attention. There have been many great religious teachers and thinkers since then. Do we think spirituality got frozen in time two thousand years ago? Why? I think the Abrahamic era is winding down in the face of modernity but the good of spirituality is timeless.
 

Aset's Flames

Viperine Asetian
My thought is that you are getting overly concerned, overly literal and over-analyzing books that were written by well-meaning ancient writers. I suggest taking the good things of Jesus and not worrying about any dogma that doesn't square with modern reason. I would look to more modern and liberal religious thinkers too. I believe in Jesus but think many Bible stories and dogma have flaws.

It just seems odd to me that these ancient stories hold so much modern attention. There have been many great religious teachers and thinkers since then. Do we think spirituality got frozen in time two thousand years ago? Why? I think the Abrahamic era is winding down in the face of modernity but the good of spirituality is timeless.

If you accept that the bible is not infallible then why do you believe that Yeshua (better known as Jesus) did the miracles reported in it? There are no other documents report in his miracles outside of these works.

There is actually more documentation of Elvis sightings after Elvis's death then there are reports of Yeshua's miracles.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
If you accept that the bible is not infallible then why do you believe that Yeshua (better known as Jesus) did the miracles reported in it? There are no other documents report in his miracles outside of these works.
It was not the age of media for sure and we'll never know for certain. However, I think it is highly likely that miraculous events occurred involving Jesus. It is hard to explain early Christianity without some types of post-death experiences by the earliest followers. Also I believe in miracles by other religious figures so it is not a stretch for me to believe that Jesus performed miracles. It is hard to understand his fame without something that commanded attention.

BTW, I'm not a Christian either.
 

Thana

Lady
Please show me where it says the Gentiles do not.

And if he did not would that not mean that your deity is racist?

Well if you had read the bible you'd know this.
Leviticus 26:46 - "These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the LORD established at Mount Sinai between Himself and the Israelites through Moses."

If you want more detail you can read Acts 15:7-11

And it's got nothing to do with race.
 

LanternBearer

New Member
George and Flames, I thank you both for helping me out. I have been studying the bible because I was going through this spiritual journey. Still going through it. It is my parents who are hardcore christians. I hope it's merely a mid-life crisis thing. They weren't like this a year ago.
 

Aset's Flames

Viperine Asetian
Well if you had read the bible you'd know this.
Leviticus 26:46 - "These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the LORD established at Mount Sinai between Himself and the Israelites through Moses."

If you want more detail you can read Acts 15:7-11

And it's got nothing to do with race.

Arrogant are we?

You assume that I have not read the bible becuase I do not agree with your inteperation that you choose to believe in so you do not have to sacrifice much for your religion.

It was simply stating that the Israelites where the ones engine the compact becuase they where the nation that followed him.

If he only requires the Jewish people to follow rose rules than it does have to do with race.

Either people who follow your deity have to follow the old testament, in which case you should follow old testament law, or only a specific ethnic group has to follow the old testament laws in which case it provides even more evidance of your deity's racism.
 
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