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The Argument for God(Or Against God) Is Never a Logical One.

A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
What does this have to do with anything? Whether or not that's true, the fact remains that to be useful, a concept of God needs to be logical.

Neitzsche is significant because his axioms have nothing to do with logic and they are useful. Like these axioms, the idea of God [speaking from my tradition] is not from logic but from wisdom traditions that are meant to be experienced not be logical review but by existential participation - like enjoying art or music or philosophy.

So I don't think that the idea of God is beyond logic, but logic is simply not the tool that is useful for reviewing the idea God.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
So I don't think that the idea of God is beyond logic, but logic is simply not the tool that is useful for reviewing the idea God.

Well, then I disagree completely. Logic is the best tool we have for determining the reality or truth of a concept. If you or others want to pretend God is beyond logic or something else that might sound neat in a philosophical way, more power to you, but, to me, that's not a very good way to determine things.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Well, then I disagree completely. Logic is the best tool we have for determining the reality or truth of a concept. If you or others want to pretend God is beyond logic or something else that might sound neat in a philosophical way, more power to you, but, to me, that's not a very good way to determine things.

Do you use logic to enjoy art or music?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
According to you.

The significance is human experience, not semantics [word choice].

It would be no accomplishment for an Epicurean to achieve enjoyment of misery if misery ceased to exist. He has conquered it, but he enjoys the suffering - not in a perverted kind of way - but because he celebrates victory - the control of his body / emotions while in misery.
Then he enjoys the effects of the misery, not the misery itself.

Again, I'm sure you can see that you could come up with some other set of antonyms that you wouldn't quibble about, but would illustrate the fact that even things that aren't based on rational judgement still have to allow for logic if they're to be real.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I already addressed this. We're not talking about art or music. We're talking about whether or not a concept exists in reality. For those matters I always use logic.

But the enjoyment or existential relationship to art and music gives it value and meaning in our lives, demonstrating clearly that logic is useless in a significant portion of our human experience. So human experience of the divine should be held in equal respect, as it is just as much a part of us as the arts.

As for the concept existing in reality (or, more precisely, describing the concept accurately), that must of course rely on how the subject is described. Traditionally, Christians believe that God is the Creator and therefore outside of the realm of human review. That's where faith comes in - and the enrichment of human experience. It doesn't prove God's existence in a way convincing to a positivist, but I can tell you what faith is like.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
But the enjoyment or existential relationship to art and music gives it value and meaning in our lives, demonstrating clearly that logic is useless in a significant portion of our human experience. So human experience of the divine should be held in equal respect, as it is just as much a part of us as the arts.
Define "useless". Logic may not be the focus of art or music, but it's a necessary part of all existence.

Gravity is also necessary for music, even if the musician or composer doesn't normally dwell on it. It's simply assumed that gravity works the way it normally does.

This doesn't mean that gravity or logic are useless or irrelevant to art; it just means that they're taken as given. While they may not be the focus of things, they're entirely necessary.

As for the concept existing in reality (or, more precisely, describing the concept accurately), that must of course rely on how the subject is described. Traditionally, Christians believe that God is the Creator and therefore outside of the realm of human review. That's where faith comes in - and the enrichment of human experience. It doesn't prove God's existence in a way convincing to a positivist, but I can tell you what faith is like.
That's not the full story, though. Traditionally, Christians believed that God interacted with humanity in very real and concrete ways on a regular basis. They may not have believed that the totality of God was within human review, but they certainly believed that there was ample physical evidence for God. As an example, just consider the vast number of churches across Europe that have shrines holding a purported piece of the "true cross".
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
But the enjoyment or existential relationship to art and music gives it value and meaning in our lives, demonstrating clearly that logic is useless in a significant portion of our human experience. So human experience of the divine should be held in equal respect, as it is just as much a part of us as the arts.

God is a concept. For it to be something that could exist in reality, it would have to be logical.

As for the concept existing in reality (or, more precisely, describing the concept accurately), that must of course rely on how the subject is described. Traditionally, Christians believe that God is the Creator and therefore outside of the realm of human review. That's where faith comes in - and the enrichment of human experience. It doesn't prove God's existence in a way convincing to a positivist, but I can tell you what faith is like.

Yes, whether or not God exists in reality relies on the description of God. That description would have to be logical for it to exist. If it's illogical, that means it can't exist in reality.

If God truly is outside of the realm of human review, then humans have no use for him, and further, they would have no way of knowing about him in the first place. Where faith comes in is when there is a lack of evidence, but someone still wants to believe something.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
9-10s what you're really asking for is for someone to prove to you that God exists in reality - and you're basing asking that on whether or not there are consequences of that reality, or of disbelieving in that reality. At least that's what I get out of your line of questioning.

I can't prove to you that God exists. All I can tell you is my BELIEFS - which is all that you can do as well. I can tell you what I believe the consequences are of rejecting God's grace, but I can't prove that to you. That's why I am not going to lay out what I believe are the ramifications of rejecting God's grace. Besides the obvious fact that I can't prove those ramifications to you - I also believe that there is enough mystery, grace, and forgiveness associated with Jesus Christ that there's a distinct probability that I don't have a clear idea of the scope of those ramifications.

Therefore, I can only live my life as I feel God leads me. How others reach their own conclusions is up to them. I would hope that my life is testimony of God's grace and the joy that He has blessed me with. This joy opens up conversations which give me an opportunity to witness - and I look for those opportunities. But in the end, I can't prove anything about God to anyone.

This in no way affects the integrity of my faith.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
9-10s what you're really asking for is for someone to prove to you that God exists in reality - and you're basing asking that on whether or not there are consequences of that reality, or of disbelieving in that reality. At least that's what I get out of your line of questioning.
I guess the point that I'm trying to get at is this: our sidebar discussion started, IMO, with the premise that it's reasonable to expect that real things that interact with us in real ways have real effects. You seemed to take objection to this idea, while I think it's at least generally true and very reasonable position to take. I also think that it forms the basis for logical inquiry into the truth of certain religious claims.

I'm not asking for you to prove God. What I'm trying to do is get some agreement that we have a good first step toward asking questions about God.

I can't prove to you that God exists. All I can tell you is my BELIEFS - which is all that you can do as well. I can tell you what I believe the consequences are of rejecting God's grace, but I can't prove that to you. That's why I am not going to lay out what I believe are the ramifications of rejecting God's grace. Besides the obvious fact that I can't prove those ramifications to you - I also believe that there is enough mystery, grace, and forgiveness associated with Jesus Christ that there's a distinct probability that I don't have a clear idea of the scope of those ramifications.

Therefore, I can only live my life as I feel God leads me. How others reach their own conclusions is up to them. I would hope that my life is testimony of God's grace and the joy that He has blessed me with. This joy opens up conversations which give me an opportunity to witness - and I look for those opportunities. But in the end, I can't prove anything about God to anyone.

This in no way affects the integrity of my faith.
Why doesn't it?

Not to denigrate your faith, but if a world without God wouldn't be different from a world with God in any measurable way, what's the impetus to assume God?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
My world WITH my faith in God is better than my world WITHOUT my faith in God. How do I know this? Because I've lived in both. Faith enriches my life immensely.
 

jml03

Member
I already addressed this. We're not talking about art or music. We're talking about whether or not a concept exists in reality. For those matters I always use logic.

I understand, the 10 ft flying monster & dragons comment.... But, did/do you use logic when finding a mate? Did you go by your feelings? Did you make the most logical choice when deciding who to spend time with, or did you go with your heart & instinct?
 

jonman122

Active Member
I understand, the 10 ft flying monster & dragons comment.... But, did/do you use logic when finding a mate? Did you go by your feelings? Did you make the most logical choice when deciding who to spend time with, or did you go with your heart & instinct?

of course some of it is logical, if it wasn't and you found a 'mate' who you believed you loved based on your heart and instinct, but he was addicted to different types of drugs or alcohol and every time you got a paycheck nearly all of it went to feed that addiction, then you've just found yourself a very very undesirable situation based on heart and instinct, and you simple logic would have solved immediately.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
My world WITH my faith in God is better than my world WITHOUT my faith in God. How do I know this? Because I've lived in both. Faith enriches my life immensely.
But like I pointed out to stephenw earlier, faith in God is not the same thing as God himself. Has God himself affected your life in any measurable way?

I understand, the 10 ft flying monster & dragons comment.... But, did/do you use logic when finding a mate? Did you go by your feelings? Did you make the most logical choice when deciding who to spend time with, or did you go with your heart & instinct?
When deciding on my wife instead of someone else, my decision was probably based more on emotion than plain logic.

When determining whether she existed in the first place, I definitiely did use logic and reason. It's getting ahead of yourself if you start asking "should I marry this person?" before you've answered the question "does this person even exist at all?"
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
But like I pointed out to stephenw earlier, faith in God is not the same thing as God himself. Has God himself affected your life in any measurable way?

Why, 9-10s, I believe that God CREATED me, and that He has blessed my life abundantly.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about this whole matter:

Job 38

The LORD Speaks

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:

2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?

3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?
8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?
12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death ?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades?
Can you loose the cords of Orion?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God's dominion over the earth?
34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?
36 Who endowed the heart with wisdom
or gave understanding to the mind ?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket? 41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?

Job 39


1 "Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.
5 "Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied his ropes?
6 I gave him the wasteland as his home,
the salt flats as his habitat.
7 He laughs at the commotion in the town;
he does not hear a driver's shout.
8 He ranges the hills for his pasture
and searches for any green thing.
9 "Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will he stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold him to the furrow with a harness?
Will he till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on him for his great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to him?
12 Can you trust him to bring in your grain
and gather it to your threshing floor?
13 "The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
but they cannot compare with the pinions and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.
19 "Do you give the horse his strength
or clothe his neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make him leap like a locust,
striking terror with his proud snorting?
21 He paws fiercely, rejoicing in his strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 He laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
he does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against his side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement he eats up the ground;
he cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet he snorts, 'Aha!'
He catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.
26 "Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread his wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build his nest on high?
28 He dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is his stronghold.
29 From there he seeks out his food;
his eyes detect it from afar. 30 His young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there is he."


Job 40


1 The LORD said to Job:
2 "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!"

3 Then Job answered the LORD :
4 "I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more."
6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:
7 "Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 "Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at every proud man and bring him low,
12 look at every proud man and humble him,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Why, 9-10s, I believe that God CREATED me, and that He has blessed my life abundantly.
Okay - that helps. "Blessings" can be a bit vague and hard to quanitify, but your life is certainly a measurable effect, and you attribute this effect to God.

This leads to a new question: why attribute the effect to God? What leads you to conclude that God created you and that you weren't created by something else (or that you weren't created at all, depending on which sense of "created" you're using).
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
This leads to a new question: why attribute the effect to God? What leads you to conclude that God created you and that you weren't created by something else (or that you weren't created at all, depending on which sense of "created" you're using).
If I may take a stab at this: the image of "God" is one of creator, so while life is created, creator created life. While it's not necessary to hold that image of "God", if you do hold that image, everything is attributed to it.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I understand, the 10 ft flying monster & dragons comment.... But, did/do you use logic when finding a mate? Did you go by your feelings? Did you make the most logical choice when deciding who to spend time with, or did you go with your heart & instinct?

Again, this doesn't address the point. We're not talking about finding a mate. We're talking about whether or not a possible mate exists.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
If I may take a stab at this: the image of "God" is one of creator, so while life is created, creator created life.
I think we can look at this two ways:

- if "created" implies deliberate, conscious intent, then the premise "life is created" is an assertion that needs considerable support.
- if "created" simply means "caused to come into being", then I question whether this alone is sufficient to rightly call the creator "God" without also establishing other attributes like consciousness and intelligence.

While it's not necessary to hold that image of "God", if you do hold that image, everything is attributed to it.
But there, we get into conflict with many actual religions. Many don't attribute everything to God... take evil, for instance.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I think we can look at this two ways:

- if "created" implies deliberate, conscious intent, then the premise "life is created" is an assertion that needs considerable support.

- if "created" simply means "caused to come into being", then I question whether this alone is sufficient to rightly call the creator "God" without also establishing other attributes like consciousness and intelligence.
I guess I misunderstood the issue - so much for sticking my nose in. As I saw, briefly, the issue wasn't why call creator "God", but why attribute creator "God" to one's own creation, or any creation. Of course, the second position assumes the image of "God" as creator.
 
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