The Atheist Contradiction and Reasoning

[Gharib]

well by that logic god doesn't exist either then.

prove it. the brain says so?

 

[Gharib]

More to the point, you have no answer to these questions.

you mean you don't have an answer to his question.

Natural selection has no difficulty explaining this; intelligent design, on the other hand, cannot explain imperfect adaptations.

what is perfect and what is imperfect? give some examples.

 

[Gharib]

Bollocks.

Using an MRI, we can see emotion in the brain in the form of electrical activity. To ask what colour that electrical activity appears on an MRI is one thing. It shows up in false colour on an MRI read-out, so it varies.

However, to simply ask "What colour is sadness?" is nonsensical.

good post if the thread title was about brain activity and sadness, but sadly it doesn't answer the question made in this thread.

 

[JMorris]

 

[Gharib]

So your argument is that if something exists but cannot be seen it must have been caused by magic? Talk about a non sequiter.

Emotion is an effect the brain causes. It's pretty simple. Like consciousness, thought and regulating the body's internal systems, emotions are something the brain DOES.

What color is the radiation from a microwave? What does the 'rumble' of a v8 engine look like? How big is a radio wave? Once you can answer these questions you will have your answer about the color of sadness.

And furthermore, even if emotion was not able to be measured in terms of its causes (which it can be) that still wouldn't imply any sort of supernatural causes.

And even were we to grant you this rather absurd proposition as true (not understood=supernatural) THAT wouldn't imply your god, or even any god at all as I can imagine all sorts of supernatural make believe things that could explain emotion if they were taken as true. Emotion fairies anyone?

Your case, like all muslim apologetics, falls flat right out of the gate. Layers and layers of fail.

good post, you've made Fatihah's point even stronger. well done. so how about answering his question now. or you could answer your own questions if you like, they're almost identical.

 

[Gharib]

Okay, fine. I'm going to try and be a thorough as I can here, then I'm out.

When a person experiences something that triggers an emotion, a particular area of the brain becomes active (what part depends on the emotion.)
Using an MRI we can watch this activity in the brain and thus, we know which part of the brain controls which emotions. Using electrical stimulation we can then trigger these same emotions without outside stimuli (other than the electricity)

Now, on an MRI, the electrical activity associated with certain emotions appears in false colour. Sometimes it appears red, other times blue, it varies. The actual electrical activity going on in the brain has no colour (that I'm aware of).

Emotions like sadness, or in my case right now frustration, are simply the result of the brain's electrical activity. They do not exist outside the brain. They have no mass, no colour, and no size.



Again, it's a false colour image...

since we're on this topic. does love occur in the brain or the heart? and what does love look like? we have 2 different kinds of love, homosexual and heterosexual, how do they differ from one another? they are love right?

 

[Gharib]

I view emotions as what they are: chemical reactions. They're derived from our brain chemistry.

what chemical reaction did our brain and mind derive from?

 

[The_Evelyonian]

every creation has a creator. since Allah is not a creation but a creator (as one of his snames states) then no one created Allah.

Ah, so then Fatihah's original point that ALL intelligence must be caused by intelligence is wrong then, correct?

so if there is a cause there is a result, what is that result and how do we accept its existence if we can't see it?

what does hunger look like?
we all know it exists, we can feel it in our tummy and our brain.

I understand where you're going with this but you need to understand that the inability to see god stopped being a logical objection to his/her/its existence a long time ago. There are things in this universe we can't see that we readily accept the existence of.

There are, however, plenty of other logical reasons to doubt (if not flat-out deny) the existence of god that are not nearly so easy to dismiss.

if emotions come from the brain, then why does our facial language change? for example the following images:

:drool: you wanna see some more?

You do realize that the entire body (including the face) is controlled by the brain, right?

so you're saying that if we can't fully understand something we still accept it, that sounds like a belief system. why don't you say the same thing about god, we can't fully understand him but we should accept him, no?

No, I said that simply because you can phrase a question in a grammatically correct form does not entitle it to an answer. I said nothing about the ability or inability to understand anything.

good post if the thread title was about brain activity and sadness, but sadly it doesn't answer the question made in this thread.

What question?

since we're on this topic. does love occur in the brain or the heart? and what does love look like? we have 2 different kinds of love, homosexual and heterosexual, how do they differ from one another? they are love right?

Love occurs in the brain just like every other emotion. Again, unless you're using an MRI, it doesn't look like anything. It's just a feeling.

There is no such thing as homosexual love or heterosexual love. There is only love.

 

[bossbozz]

what chemical reaction did our brain and mind derive from?

self replicating DNA and evolution

since we're on this topic. does love occur in the brain or the heart?

The brain, the heart is a pump for blood. Hearts however pump faster when we become emotional and so become related to feelings of love, fear, excitement etc... also they are prettier on cards as the brain is a bit lumpy and ugly.

and what does love look like?

Do seriously you expect an emotion to have a physical appearance or are you just asking silly questions for lack of a decent one? Well you know what they say, you'll never find it if you're looking.

we have 2 different kinds of love, homosexual and heterosexual, how do they differ from one another? they are love right?

So in what way do I love my dog? Would that be heterosexual or homosexual? How about my lesbian friends who have a son? Do they love him homosexually because they are homosexual? What does sexual preference have to do with how we feel emotions. Do homosexuals feel homosexual anger, happiness, fear and a range of other specifically homosexual emotions too? Does homosexual serotonin and dopamine have a different physiological effect on the body?

If you are really interested in finding out about the chemistry of love (and I somehow doubt you are) then I suggest you look into the roles and effects of phenyl ethylamine, dopamine, norepinephren, serotonin, oxytocin and vasopressin as well as reading up on the anthropological and psychological studies of human relationships.

Can you tell me what ignorance looks like?

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

good post, you've made Fatihah's point even stronger. well done. so how about answering his question now. or you could answer your own questions if you like, they're almost identical.

The comprehension of English must not be your strongest suite? Or perhaps this statement is as dishonest as it seems. Never can tell with you guys.

But Let me assure you, I have done no such thing. As many posters before and after me, I have only shown nonsense to be nonsense and why.

I know the 'why' part must seem a bit foreign if you think a flat assertion constitutes an argument, as you must based on your posting history in this thread. That really isn't my problem, however.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

very true.

so does everyone agree that atheism is a belief system and they say god doesn't exists because they say so?

No. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods. That's all. There are no other common elements.

Are Islam, Satanism, Judaism, Kemetic Paganism and Hinduism all one "belief system" just because they all reject the Norse gods?

and who created the rock and the water? and all that "everything else natural around us"?

And there we have it: you've decided a priori that everything is the deliberate creation of an intelligence, so anything we point to will be dismissed by you as designed.

Hypothetically, what would you consider to be valid evidence of an undesigned pattern?

what is perfect and what is imperfect? give some examples.

For starters, how about the fact that we use the same tube for breathing and eating? Because of this, we can kill ourselves by doing nothing more than eating without sufficient care. If we're the product of an intelligent designer, then this is a poor design.

 

[Kenaz]

If you were to ask an atheist about how the universe, life itself, and all that exists came to be, the answer would be scientific.

Since when does being an atheist ("without god", lack of belief in a deity/deities) automatically imply one MUST use science to explain things? That is a very large generalization and assumption.

And on the subject of asking an atheist (or anyone for that matter), "how the universe, life itself, and all that exists came to be"; some (and wisely so in my opinion) may answer, "I don't know." What do you tell that individual?

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

What about the tonsils? The appendix? Male nipples? Surely these are proof positive of a designer! (one who had one too many wobbly pops if you know what I mean)

 

[johnhanks]

what is perfect and what is imperfect? give some examples.

It would be difficult to declare something perfect, but the following are most certainly imperfect.

- an appendix which confers negligible benefit but is potentially lethal;
- a laryngeal nerve that loops around the aortic ligament to make the short journey from brain-stem to larynx;
- a backbone which has been made roughly vertical by introducing a second curve, liable to collapse in middle age;
- a reproductive system that is tangled up with a urinary system;
- a nervous system that warns of impending heart attack via pain in the left arm;
- and the one 9-10ths penguin referred to.

No very intelligent design involved here.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

It would be difficult to declare something perfect, but the following are most certainly imperfect.

- an appendix which confers negligible benefit but is potentially lethal;
- a laryngeal nerve that loops around the aortic ligament to make the short journey from brain-stem to larynx;
- a backbone which has been made roughly vertical by introducing a second curve, liable to collapse in middle age;
- a reproductive system that is tangled up with a urinary system;
- a nervous system that warns of impending heart attack via pain in the left arm;
- and the one 9-10ths penguin referred to.

No very intelligent design involved here.

More examples of unintelligent design.

Examples of "poor design" cited include:
The existence of the blind spot in the human eye.
In the African locust, nerve cells start in the abdomen but connect to the wing. This leads to unnecessary use of materials.

The human reproductive system includes the following:
In the human female, a fertilized egg can implant into the fallopian tube, cervix or ovary rather than the uterus causing an ectopic pregnancy. The existence of a cavity between the ovary and the fallopian tube could indicate a flawed design in the female reproductive system. Prior to modern surgery, ectopic pregnancy invariably caused the deaths of both mother and baby. Even in modern times, in almost all cases, the pregnancy must be aborted to save the life of the mother.
In the human female, the birth canal passes through the pelvis. The prenatal skull will deform to a surprising extent. However, if the baby’s head is significantly larger than the pelvic opening, the baby cannot be born naturally. Prior to the development of modern surgery (caesarean section), such a complication would lead to the death of the mother, the baby or both. Other birthing complications such as breech birth are worsened by this position of the birth canal.
In the human male, testes develop initially within the abdomen. Later during gestation, they migrate through the abdominal wall into the scrotum. This causes two weak points in the abdominal wall where hernias can later form. Prior to modern surgical techniques, complications from hernias including intestinal blockage, gangrene, etc., usually resulted in death.

Other arguments:
Barely used nerves and muscles, such as the plantaris muscle of the foot, that are missing in part of the human population and are routinely harvested as spare parts if needed during operations. Another example is the muscles that move the ears, which some people can learn to control to a degree, but serve no purpose in any case.
Intricate reproductive devices in orchids, apparently constructed from components commonly having different functions in other flowers.
The use by pandas of their enlarged radial sesamoid bones in a manner similar to how other creatures use thumbs.
The existence of unnecessary wings in flightless birds, e.g. ostriches.
The route of the recurrent laryngeal nerve is such that it travels from the brain to the larynx by looping around the aortic arch. This same configuration holds true for many animals, in the case of the giraffe this results in about twenty feet of extra nerve.
The prevalence of congenital diseases and genetic disorders such as Huntington's Disease.
The common malformation of the human spinal column, leading to scoliosis, sciatica and congenital misalignment of the vertebrae.
The existence of the pharynx, a passage used for both ingestion and respiration, with the consequent drastic increase in the risk of choking.
The structure of humans' (as well as all mammals') eyes. The retina is 'inside out'. The nerves and blood vessels lie on the surface of the retina instead of behind it as is the case in many invertebrate species. This arrangement forces a number of complex adaptations and gives mammals a blind spot. (See Evolution of the eye). Six muscles move the eye when three would suffice.
Crowded teeth and poor sinus drainage, as human faces are significantly flatter than those of other primates and humans share the same tooth set. This results in a number of problems, most notably with wisdom teeth.
Almost all animals and plants synthesize their own vitamin C, but humans cannot because the gene for this enzyme is defective. Lack of vitamin C results in scurvy and eventually death. The gene is also non-functional in other primates and guinea pigs, but is functional in most other higher animals.
The enzyme rubisco has been described as a "notoriously inefficient" enzyme, as it is inhibited by oxygen, has a very slow turnover and is not saturated at current levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. The enzyme is inhibited as it unable to distinguish between carbon dioxide and molecular oxygen, with oxygen acting as an competitive enzyme inhibitor. However, rubisco remains the key enzyme in carbon fixation and plants overcome its poor activity by having massive amounts of it inside their cells, making it the most abundant protein on Earth.
The enzyme nitrogenase actually preferentially binds with acetylene over di-nitrogen, despite it being the key enzyme used in nitrogen fixation in many bacteria and archaea.
The breathing reflex is stimulated not directly by the absence of oxygen but rather indirectly by the presence of carbon dioxide. A result is that, at high altitudes, oxygen deprivation can occur in unadapted individuals who do not consciously increase their breathing rate. Oxygenless asphyxiation in a pure-nitrogen atmosphere has been proposed as a humane method of execution that exploits this oversight.
The unstable hollow bones built for flight in birds like penguins and ostriches, and the Sturdy bones built for non-flight in animals like bats.
Vestigial third molar (Commonly known as wisdom teeth) in humans. Some other primates with differing jaw shapes make use of the third molar.
The vestigial Femur and pelvis in whales, the ancestor of whales lived on land.
Turritopsis nutricula and Hydra genus have Biological Immortality

Other critics argue that if these design failures are the deliberate products of an intelligent designer, then the designer must be either inept or sadistic. Or possibly there was a large number of designers, as in the old joke that "a camel is a horse designed by a committee".

 

[JustWondering]

Since animals have emotions they must have souls too, right?

 

[Gharib]

No. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods. That's all. There are no other common elements.

Are Islam, Satanism, Judaism, Kemetic Paganism and Hinduism all one "belief system" just because they all reject the Norse gods?

they are not one belief system,they are belief systems.

And there we have it: you've decided a priori that everything is the deliberate creation of an intelligence, so anything we point to will be dismissed by you as designed.

Hypothetically, what would you consider to be valid evidence of an undesigned pattern?

well no one was present when the earth was created, to say that it happened by itself is plain nonsense and ignorance. but since you asked the question then here's my answer. cars are mainly made from metal, plastic and fabric. how about we get a big pile of the 3 of those and we wait for them to assemble into a car. a car compared to a universe is much easier to come to be wihout any guidance right? if a car i stoo complicated for you, then how about we just get some clay pour water on it and wait for it to tun into a brick.

For starters, how about the fact that we use the same tube for breathing and eating? Because of this, we can kill ourselves by doing nothing more than eating without sufficient care. If we're the product of an intelligent designer, then this is a poor design.

i dissagree, the design is perfect, if we are so careless as you say then thats our fault. isn't it? if it was that we would die from our first bite then that is a poor design.

 

[Gharib]

Since animals have emotions they must have souls too, right?

yes animals have souls too according to islam.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

they are not one belief system,they are belief systems.

And by the same token, atheism is not one belief system.

well no one was present when the earth was created, to say that it happened by itself is plain nonsense and ignorance. but since you asked the question then here's my answer. cars are mainly made from metal, plastic and fabric. how about we get a big pile of the 3 of those and we wait for them to assemble into a car. a car compared to a universe is much easier to come to be wihout any guidance right? if a car i stoo complicated for you, then how about we just get some clay pour water on it and wait for it to tun into a brick.

Funny... you said that this answered my question, but it completely failed to do so. Again: what would you have to see in order to say "that pattern was undesigned"?

i dissagree, the design is perfect, if we are so careless as you say then thats our fault. isn't it? if it was that we would die from our first bite then that is a poor design.

I'm an engineer. If I did my designs with the same care that God apparently "designed" his creations, I'd lose my license. I might even go to jail. Surely God can meet the same standard as a lowly human, can't he?

 

[Gharib]

And by the same token, atheism is not one belief system.

no problem, atheism is many belief systems. but still it is a belief system.

Funny... you said that this answered my question, but it completely failed to do so. Again: what would you have to see in order to say "that pattern was undesigned"?

as i said, pour water on some clay and wait for it to turn into a brick by itself, when it does i'll call it an undesigned patter and accept it.

I'm an engineer. If I did my designs with the same care that God apparently "designed" his creations, I'd lose my license. I might even go to jail. Surely God can meet the same standard as a lowly human, can't he?

i know you are an engineer from previous posts you've made saying so.
i'll ask you something.
you have completed a 'perfect' building right. if this building is perfect that means it should last forever, we all know that it cannot but still i agree it is a perfect design. having said that, is there anything in paticular you would recomend? by recomend i mean do you recomend that they test explosives in it?