The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

[atpollard]

would being a rogue theologian qualify?
and in this country I could declare myself as enlightened
then start my own church

tax exemptions included ....if I jumped all the hoops

A "rogue theologian" probably disqualifies you from claiming orthodoxy by definition.

"rogue" or "orthodox", but not both.

 

[Thief]

A "rogue theologian" probably disqualifies you from claiming orthodoxy by definition.

"rogue" or "orthodox", but not both.

but I could CLAIM to be both and let would be followers sort out the mysticism.....

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> how come someone is atoning for it sins while protesting upon the sinners

... . just for a thought
if we may say so . ...


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[MountainPine]

~;> how come someone is atoning for it sins while protesting upon the sinners

Bingo! Jesus did not endure what he went through for everyone, especially the Pharisees. You can't say he died for all mankind.

 

[atpollard]

~;> how come someone is atoning for it sins while protesting upon the sinners

... . just for a thought
if we may say so . ...

:ty:

godbless
unto all always

Why does the parent constantly have to clean up your messes?
DO NOT TOUCH! Meant do not touch.
Now stop using that tone of voice with your Father and play nice with your brothers and sisters.

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> as they say
For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
For he who said,
"Do not commit adultery,"
also said, "Do not commit murder."

Now if you do not commit adultery, but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

So speak, and so do, as men who are to be judged by a law of freedom.
For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

Why does the parent constantly have to clean up your messes?
DO NOT TOUCH! Meant do not touch.
Now stop using that tone of voice with your Father and play nice with your brothers and sisters.

 

[Ben Avraham]

~;> as they say
For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
For he who said,
"Do not commit adultery,"
also said, "Do not commit murder."

Now if you do not commit adultery, but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

So speak, and so do, as men who are to be judged by a law of freedom.
For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

godbless
unto all always

Paul was wrong when he said that if one falls once he becomes guilty of the whole Law as if he meant that it was not worth to obey the Law. If that was so, the Lord would not have inspired Prophet Isaiah to teach the chance we
all have to set things right with the Lord so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow through repentance and obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) Paul's point was to take people away from God's Law. That's why he claimed that
his followers had been released from the Law through the death of Jesus. (Romans 7:1-7 and 10:4)

 

[Ben Avraham]

so the crucifixion of the Carpenter was not a murder?

Yes, it was but perpetrated by the Romans. And the reason was because Jesus' disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews in Jerusalem which was a Roman province at the time. Hence Jesus' verdict INRI. (Luke 19:37-40)

 

[Ben Avraham]

No, I don't believe Jesus died for anyone's sins except his own, the myth of Jesus dying for our sins is a metaphor, we need to die ourselves, that is our so called carnal self, so as to allow our true inner being to shine through, that is the Christ self.

I fully agree with you Psychoslice.

 

[Ben Avraham]

So what the hell is the rest of the world to you?

The rest of the world is the stage on which the Lord is sanctified through Israel. That's in Ezekiel 20:41. Then, as Jesus said, the world gets salvation through the Jews. And that's in John 4:22.

 

[atpollard]

~;> as they say
For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
For he who said,
"Do not commit adultery,"
also said, "Do not commit murder."

Now if you do not commit adultery, but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

So speak, and so do, as men who are to be judged by a law of freedom.
For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

:ty:

godbless
unto all always

I wasn't sure my intention was clear.
My response was intended as a humorous answer to your question from the point of view of Jesus.
There was a reference to Adam in the Garden of Eden and the Two Greatest Commandments.

It was not intended as a criticism or personal attack.

 

[shmogie]

So your saying that Christ was our substitute, he died so we dont have to? Sorry, I"m just not seeing this substitute thing.....

Romans 5; 9-11 "Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, having been reconciled we shall be saved by his life" Can't be any clearer. Christ didn't die because of his own sin, he committed none. He died for us. Why ? he suffered the penalty we deserve. We are justified by his blood. Justified means made right, or made just. We were made right by God by Christ;'s death in our place. There was no other reason for his death. By his life in our place (perfect obedience) we can claim his perfectly obedient life in our place before the law. The law cannot condemn someone who is not in violation of it.

 

[psychoslice]

Hmm.... do you believe that Jesus' life was a metaphor too? That he never really existed? That's called Marcionism. The Manicheans believed the same.

For me personally I I don't need Jesus to be real or not, I can see through the metaphor what the story points to, believing Jesus is real or not only gets in the way, it becomes an idol.

 

[Thief]

Yes, it was but perpetrated by the Romans. And the reason was because Jesus' disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews in Jerusalem which was a Roman province at the time. Hence Jesus' verdict INRI. (Luke 19:37-40)

yep...we agree

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> no your wrong
its very clear
that it is only humorous unto your own thinking
base on your own opinion

and theres no such thing that your own words were the two greatest commandment of god

also
your no good in giving excuses
as you even used adam and the commandment of god
as your scapegoat towards your
malicious intent

when you said dont touch
your pertaining unto what . . .
that tickles a lot coz someone who were protesting upon the sinners think they were untouchable
and that is
what we find humorous

when did god told to his created humans to play nice with his (your) brothers and sisters
literally

it seems your the one who plays with god's word
coz humans were not created to be a play thing of some gods or even its own kind

as they say
its only the evil one
who only play the lives of every living things
for the true god of truth only knows how to love his created creatures

your only making fool out of yourself
so dont even try to fool anyone here
even though were also a sinner as some people may think for we believed unto some unbelievers
who dont believe in god and who dont believe in jesus
but it doesnt mean we do not understand those deceitful words of yours
so we are pointing this question unto you now
Why does the parent constantly have to clean up your messes?
if we may say so


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

I wasn't sure my intention was clear.
My response was intended as a humorous answer to your question from the point of view of Jesus.
There was a reference to Adam in the Garden of Eden and the Two Greatest Commandments.

It was not intended as a criticism or personal attack.

 

[moorea944]

Romans 5; 9-11 "Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, having been reconciled we shall be saved by his life" Can't be any clearer. Christ didn't die because of his own sin, he committed none. He died for us. Why ? he suffered the penalty we deserve. We are justified by his blood. Justified means made right, or made just. We were made right by God by Christ;'s death in our place. There was no other reason for his death. By his life in our place (perfect obedience) we can claim his perfectly obedient life in our place before the law. The law cannot condemn someone who is not in violation of it.

God forgives our sins, there is no payment of debt involved.

We were bought for a price, not our sins. Jesus was a ransom for many. He died for us to free us from being servants of sin. It was NOT for our sins themselves. Sins.... are forgiven by God.

The Atonement places the focus upon the Father. It shows us that He is our saviour. That He and Christ were working together on the cross. The motovation of the Atonement was out of love. He did not recieve a payment, but rather chose to forgive sins to declare His righteousness.
Why did Jesus have to die? And why did he have to suffer so much?

Romans 3v23-26 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."
Jesus died to show God's righteousness. Jesus was a man just like us. With a fleshly nature. He got on the cross to crucify that nature. Showing to the entire world for centuries to come, that his flesh desevered to die, even though he committed no sin. He showed that God was right in sending him to the cross in condeming his flesh. And though that he declared God's righteousness.

Jesus prosessed a human nature that was inclided to sin just like ours. He never gave in because God was working in Jesus. He was tempted like us, but never sinned.

Heb 4v15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Jesus was tempted, but he always turned to God. He looked to his Father for strenght. Destroying the devil. He was even tempted to not go to the cross, he didnt wanted to, but he did anyway showing his loving obiedance. Math 26v38-39 "Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

And finally, he did kill those errages on that day. And that day was the death on the cross.

Heb 2v14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

Notice the quadrupal enfasis on this verse. He, also himself, likewise. Here we see that the writer is diffenitly saying the Jesus was flesh, just like us. He took part in this nature so that he could destroy the devil. Jesus had a fleshly nature so that all thru his life he could deny that nature and finally put it to death on the cross. This was what his death was about. The "devil' here is about his flesh, the stem of tempation. "Sin in the flesh". Jesus show by his death that our flesh, not sin, but our sinful flesh has to die. Even though he was killed and never sinned, he showed that the flesh still had to die.

Romans 8v3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Same thing said in Heb 2v14.
Flesh was destroyed, God was victorious!!

Christianity tells us about an angry God who was angry at His son and made him "sin" on the cross. But when we really take a look at the atonement, we see a God who loved us. And wanted to rescue us for the glory of His name. The truth gives us a true picture of the atonement. Jesus was not our substitute. He was our representitive. He hung on the cross to declare God's righteousness. However, this means nothing to us unless we follow him. Jesus's death calls us to take up our cross and follow him.

If he was our substitute, we would be free to do whatever we want. He would have died instead of us and we would not have to die. We could live in whatever way we chose. Instead, the scripture tells us that the atonement was an example to us. We need to look at Jesus hanging on the cross and we need to say to ourselves, I need to do that!

I need to declare God's righteousness just as he did. We need to crucify our flesh and desires. We need to follow him.

1 Peter 2v21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps"

Luke 9v23 "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

Each day we need to crucify our flesh. Each day we need to consintrate on focusing on manifesting God and declaring His rightousness.
Mark 8v35 "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it."
We must give up our lives too. Buried by baptism. We dont literally have to hang on a cross to die, God in His mercy has given us baptism as a way to follow Jesus. Thru baptism we can bury our old man and be born again as a new man when we come out of the waters.

Roman 6v4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

When we are baptised, we are dying with Jesus and just as he was resurrected to a new life, we too, when we are raised up out of the water, we too need to live a new life. We are now "called" to manifest God. We are called to show God's charatorictics just as Christ did.

6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.'
Our body of sin is destroyed so we no longer live to sin. When we die with Jesus, we reconise that our lives are all about God. God deserves all of our praise and love. Our treasure is now spiritual.

Phil 3v7-8 "But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,"

The cross and a proper understanding of the atonement, leads us to God manifestation. It leads us to following the footsteps of Jesus. God sent Jesus out of love, He offers forgiveness for sins.

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> as they say
"The leach has two daughters:
'Give, give.'
"There are three things that are never satisfied;
four that do not say, 'Enough:'
Sheol,
the barren womb;
the earth that is not satisfied with water;
and the fire that doesn't say, 'Enough.'


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[ukok102nak]

Paul was wrong when he said that if one falls once he becomes guilty of the whole Law as if he meant that it was not worth to obey the Law. If that was so, the Lord would not have inspired Prophet Isaiah to teach the chance we
all have to set things right with the Lord so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow through repentance and obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) Paul's point was to take people away from God's Law. That's why he claimed that
his followers had been released from the Law through the death of Jesus. (Romans 7:1-7 and 10:4)

~;> the apostle of the gentiles
is pointing unto the law that the jews apply unto their daily life style that was given by moses unto them
thats a clear indication of what the verses that you've posted
so as it is written
:read:
Joshua 8:32
He wrote there on the stones a copy of the Law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.

now
as it is written
:read:
Romans 2:13
People who merely listen to laws from God don't have God's approval. Rather, people who do what those laws demand will have God's approval.
14 For example, whenever non-Jews who don't have laws from God do by nature the things that Moses' Teachings contain, they are a law to themselves even though they don't have any laws from God.
15 They show that some requirements found in Moses' Teachings are written in their hearts. Their consciences speak to them. Their thoughts accuse them on one occasion and defend them on another.
16 This happens as they face the day when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge people's secret thoughts. He will use the Good News that I am spreading to make that judgment.


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

Christianity teaches that Jesus died for sins of mankind, and the Bible makes it seemingly so. But is the atonement doctrine really compatible with scripture? In this thread, the issue of sacrifice examined in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows that Moses instituted laws of sacrifice as a penalty for sin. The point of these sacrifices was to accrue guilt on the person making the sacrifice so they would not commit the sin again, realizing that it should be them that should be put to death for their sin and not the animal. So it was supposed to be a once and for all means to stop sinning and repent.

Ok - so that is the very first opening post - and then we have 15 pages - but look, nowhere is this SIN issue actually explained - is it..??...

Its like we just dont know - what IS sin..??...And that is not our fault that we dont actually know - because look - its NOT EXPLAINED to us - ANYWHERE in the religion - EVER....its like they just invented this "spiritual condition" - told us we have it and are stuck with it and we just take it for granted that we are "born sinners" without having any real clue given as to what that ACTUALLY MEANS !!!

And see - BECAUSE they havent explained it - BECAUSE they keep us IGNORANT on purpose - so now they can use this "sin" as a tool against us to hold us dominated and fully relying on THEM for "salvation".....Its like they invented a spiritual crime and a punishment told us we are all already guilty and will definatly receive that punishment (eternal damnation) and ONLY THEY can help EVER - nobody else they say - come to US and OUR AUTHORITY and only we can lift this threat from over you !!!

Notice - they FULLY EXPLAIN the punishment to you (all) - tell you EXACTLY and precisely what is going to happen to you if you go against them - but conveniantly NEVER explain the actual crime you sipposedly comikt - never explain the actual "rules of the game" they force us to play except to say we MUST obey them fully WITHOUT QUESTION !!!!

Can we begin to see - the religion use this as MANIPULATION - domination - control...???......And so before we start to even look if my mate Christ can "save" us form all this malarky they force upon us - FIRST - we had better come to understand just WHAT IS IT that we need "saving from"......

So - any takers here - WHAT is sin ACTUALLY..??....When we know that - then and only then can we work out if my mate is genuine - if Christ can save us or not... I know HIS explanation - and it is nothing like the religious version ( His truth rarely is) - but I ask first for the religious foundation here -WHAT IS SIN according to the religion - exactly WHAT IS IT..??.. Any takers..??....

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> according to the bible
as it is written
:read:
1 John 3:4
Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


:ty:




godbless
unto all always