The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

UKok ; Ah - so - according to the bible then - to sin is to GO AGAINST THE RELIGIOUS LAWS AND COMMANDS !!!

And WHO IS IT then that GIVES us these laws and commands..??... WHO "interprets" this gods will..??.... it is MAN that tells you you are first a sinner - and by definition you are ONLY a sinner if you DISOBEY THEM !!! Le tit sink in - deep.....

They INVENTED your lowly lost sinner status and forced it upon you... In truth - you are ALREADY exactly the same as they themselves are regarding a spiritual EQUALITY for NONE of them are speaking to his "god" directly !! ARE THEY..??.....

NO - for if they were then the christian religion would indeed be a united religion with only one faction - but as it is there are countless each claiming their own "truth" and each claiming to be this "gods ordained" - making it up as they go along - especially these days...

I should rephrase that slightly above - they didnt "invent" sin - but they did TWIST things that Christ Himself said about this eternal nature we ALREADY posses - and used His truth against us to keep us as said, subserviant and fully reliant upon them at all times.. So we have an actual situation now - where there is a legitimate spiritual condition facing mankind - a definate spiritual obstacle that we must overcome somehow - and yet those who profess to teach us about it dont actually have much of a clue as to what it really implies - OR how to remedy the situation - indeed - the second aspect of a remedy - they lead you FULLY OFF TRACK on purpose, deceive you with full intent (at the start this was intentionally so) for they WANT and need you (all) to be FULLY IGNORANT of Christ so they can hold you dominated with their bogus doctrines..

Today - even the common priest who read you the Sunday sermon - has NO TRUTH OF CHRIST - and everything he passes on to you, he has been TAUGHT AS TRUTH when he attended his "priest school"....NOBODY is communing with that "god" DIRECTLY - and I tell you truth here - that means they are ALL SINNERS just like the rest of us - because yes Folks - its all about DIRECT COMMUNION - at least - according to CHRIST that is the aim here - but according to religion, this direct communion is not possible at all as ONLY THEY are the gods spokesman, and us lot out here - NOT WORTHY and thus unable to comprehend "god" - for that they INSIST we need THEM and THEIR LAWS to save us from this spiritual condition... And so they emphasise this "sin" thing - without explaining it at all - and especially emphasise the punishment aspect to keep us fearful of the consequence if we disobey them - but really - according to Christ directly - there is no such place of "eternal damnation" and neither is there a "satan" character out to ensnare our Soul....The punishment aspect here - TOTALLY BOGUS AND FICTITIOUS !!!

Christ actually lays out the entire Creation process - heirachy of spiritual realms and their denizens - and NOWHERE is there such a "hell realm" mentioned... When it comes to "sin" and the "evil" it brings about - He says these things are OF THIS WORLD ALONE - products of mortal man and his broken mind and Self IGNORANCE... To say it plainly - sin - is indeed THIS mortal mind - ITS GUIDANCE and ITS desires - ALL of it - we have a BROKEN MIND - and so we FAIL to realise that which we are eternally.. It really is THAT SIMPLE - they made it so so complicated - but really - come to Me He said and find my yoke is light - my way is EASY He said - and it is as I shall show... Forget all that baggage doctrine and dogma they heaped on top - sin is actually very easy to detect and overcome - its all about SELF AWARENESS primarily

SIN - in its ORIGINAL meaning and context is a purely MILITARY term and is not spiritual per se - but a way of grading the competance and natural talent of an ARCHER and how GOOD he was at his task and how well he could HIT HIS TARGET.. Military - not spiritual...The army needs ARCHERS - as the most affective troop of choice - it is a SKILLED position - especially a prized marksman would be ELITE SOLIDER...A "sinner" was someone who basically could not shoot straight - like at all - it was a LOW LOW positiion in status compared to the archer - these people became hand to hand fighters - front rank cannon fodder - next to useless with the ranged bow and arrow forced to fight up close and personal - useless easily replacable - the highly sought after ELITE ARCHER remained SAFE up on the hill out of trouble, let the low life sinners take the punishment !!

So we see - sin applied to spiritual terms means a judgemnent then on ability of the individual - whether they can "hit the SPIRITUAL target" - and that target is DIRECT COMMUNION mortal MIND with DIVINE Mind....

BORN to sin they say - born WITHOUT the ability to commune directly with the Divine - SEPERATE from the Divine they teach - but this is FALSE...Not born into this condition - LEARNED to adopt it - taught it by "our parents" and teachers (hence we must come to hate the parents He said)....

Sin - is the guidance of the MORTAL and BROKEN -DIVIDED mind....Sin is the Self ignorance of this Mind - and I mean THIS mind right here reading this writing posts..This mortal mind IS sin - and in THIS broken state we simply cannot commune directly with the eternal Divine Source - are fully INCAPABLE at present of recognising that sublime energy.. Our Mind itself is NOT WHOLE and this literaly prohibits remeberance of Who and What we ARE eternally... We rely right now on this SURFACE mind alone - ITS desires - its circumstances - and see clearly - this is an EVER CHANGING - ever swapping contrary and divided - literally CHANGING MIND - and for most of us most of the time this is our full existance.. Thus we handicap pourself -adopt this mode of identity - kindo fforce dupon us just by livign the life we live -we soon FORGET OUR SELF -and this is SIN...

This forgetful broken mind brings about contrary actions - we do things we never intended - REACT to the world around instead of choosing how to RESPOND to the world around - and again,this is sin - guiidance and action from the BROKEN mortal mind.. We FORGET our Self our nature our intent ALL THE TIME we swap and change Who we are ot Be - and this is sin...All this commotion needs to be tamed - to be calmed - controlled - only then can we actually see Who and What we are underneath all that ever changing ILLUSION of Self.....

Let it sink in - ALL ABOUT MIND - all about SELF AWARENESS.. Ou Father is a fully Sentient enternal Mind that CAUSES Creation to happen - we too are a small replica OF that SAME Mind - come to know this obaout our Self He said - KNOW THY SELF fully - take this thinking mortal ever chanign mind - and hold its focus inwards deep inside seek out a calm still inner sanctuary - a silent and empty place....Literally - take surfacemind here and encounter the part we call "subconscious self" - allow the two to become one Mind and so the journey Home begins - and so we lift our own Self - SAVE our own Self always..This first inner union of MIND is just the start - it facilitates a "gateway" to open that allows direct access to "spiritual realms" as we now term them - domain of the eternal Soul where prophets and Angels come to give you truth directly, He PROMISED.. I could show you (all) original scripture to support this - but i assure you - it IS all about MIND and Self awareness AS an eternal Soul and NOT as a "mortal man"....

And look - crucially - it is always an INNER process of Self discovery - and it bares real and legitimate, tangeable results - the trusted Holy Ghost as many will know it is the DIRECT and actual consequence of His teaching - He only shows us the Way but crucially always, WE do it for OURSELVES - invoke its Presence DIRECTLY. and BECOME Him just as He advised...Therefore the religion simply cannot allow you to know it as truth for if we each knew this they would immediately be obsolete not needed - they cannot allow you to know that Diviniity TRULY lays within You and is just now ALREADY there awaiting you to realise it fully and claim your eternal status..

So they TWISTED His truth - pushed this "Sin" unworthy aspect - when really we are just unworthy because we dont know our Self intimately enough, and dont know therefore how to activate our full potential of Mind..We have self sabotaged our inherant Divine nature - adopted a broken ever changing mind in its place -and this itself is sin....see then - NOBODY ELSE can give you this INNER SELF REALISATION - NOBODY ELSE can make you encounter directly the truth of your own existance deep withtin the silence of your own mind - NOBODY else can free you from this self created, self imposed delusion of "self" that you believe the self to be..lol....- only YOU can do it for the self by starting and exploring on this inner journey of communion to uncover the true Self honestly and fully..

All creation flows from the Divine mind - Christ "died for our sins" - to prove this to us as He then RESURRECTED to show us that by FORCE OF DIVINE WILL He directl yCAUSED Creation to happen - to prove to us that the things HE did come frorm the Divine - the MIND and PRESENCE WITHIN that HE taught us how to attain DIRECTLY - its power and truth shown directly in that ressurection event... The Creation is formed from LIGHT - which is ENERGY as we call it - and we too are that SAME energy..The MIND of my Father CAUSES the creation to come forth as He declares it to Be - and we too SHARE that same MIND and same faculty....At present we have forgotten this, and this condition is "sin" - but through the process Christ advises we again REMEMBER and so claim our inheritance - mend the broken mortal mind and start the journey Home to become One with Our Father..

All about MIND Folks - mortal mind here and now becomes Divine mind etrenally - all about Self awareness - know thy self become fully known, and He promises all mystery will be revealed.. It all starts with that INNER journey of self discovery - and remember - all those EXTERNAL sources religions and gurus and teachers -can only ever and always lead you ASTRAY - the thign we seek is INTERANL - not out there in the world of man - they can NEVER show you that which you are at your core - for that only You alone are the authoirtiy - encounter the Self directly in the manner He advises - Know thy Self - seek always this living truth - Gnosis...For those with ears to hear...

 

[ukok102nak]

@
PeteC-UK

~;> if you could notice we humans
could not do anything without our senses to provide us from doing the thing that we want to

the truth is hidden in this reality
as no humans could know what is the truth behind every human heart and thought

as they say
Nevertheless as coming the tokens, behold, the days shall come, that they which dwell upon earth shall be taken in a great number, and the way of truth shall be hidden, and the land shall be barren of faith.

But iniquity shall be increased above that which now thou seest, or that thou hast heard long ago.
And the land, that thou seest now to have root, shalt thou see wasted suddenly.
But if the most High grant thee to live, thou shalt see after the third trumpet that the sun shall suddenly shine again in the night, and the moon thrice in the day:
And blood shall drop out of wood, and the stone shall give his voice, and the people shall be troubled:
And even he shall rule, whom they look not for that dwell upon the earth, and the fowls shall take their flight away together:
And the Sodomitish sea shall cast out fish, and make a noise in the night, which many have not known: but they shall all hear the voice thereof.

There shall be a confusion also in many places, and the fire shall be oft sent out again, and the wild beasts shall change their places, and menstruous women shall bring forth monsters:
And salt waters shall be found in the sweet, and all friends shall destroy one another; then shall wit hide itself, and understanding withdraw itself into his secret chamber,
And shall be sought of many, and yet not be found: then shall unrighteousness and incontinency be multiplied upon earth.

One land also shall ask another, and say, Is righteousness that maketh a man righteous gone through thee? And it shall say, No.

At the same time shall men hope, but nothing obtain: they shall labour, but their ways shall not prosper.
To shew thee such tokens I have leave; and if thou wilt pray again, and weep as now, and fast even days, thou shalt hear yet greater things.

thats why
your definitely mistaken
as those words of yours regarding unto your own interpretation about sin
it does have a relationship
unto
a system of biblical interpretation taught by man

but not this writtings
as it is written
:read:
John 5:34
But the testimony which I receive is not from man. However, I say these things that you may be saved.

Ephesians 6:6
not in the way of service only when eyes are on you, as men pleasers; but as servants of Messiah, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men;
8 knowing that whatever good thing each one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is bound or free.

Acts 17:11
Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Galatians 1:12
For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through revelation of Yeshua the Messiah.


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[shmogie]

(I apologize if you know this, it is stated for anyone reading who is unfamiliar with the terms so they will understand the joke)

The two main branches of thought in Christian Protestant Theology are Arminianism and Cavinism (aka. Reformed) and each is named after a famous advocate of that school of thought.
In Arminianism, people cooperate with God in choosing or rejecting 'salvation' ... so your (anyone's) faith or lack of faith is the person's fault. It places the burden on Arminian evangelists to convince you (anyone) of God's truth for the sake of your soul.
In Calvinism/Reformed Theology, all people are born incapable of believing the truth, so God chooses (for reasons known only to him, but having nothing to do with any goodness in us) to give some people the faith to believe and seek 'salvation'. The choice of who would be 'elected' by God to be saved is not based on us, so Reformed evangelists are only concerned that everyone hear the message of God. Whether you believe it or not is 100% in God's hands.

Thus you could embrace Reformed Theology, self classify as not one of the 'elect' and you are free to disbelieve all you want while remaining 100% orthodox to Reformed Theology.

Sorry, but belief, and faith are two different things. Belief can be totally without faith. Believing along with the desire to follow Christ displays faith. Faith leading to a choice. Expanded and continued faith is a gift from God, it cannot be generated from within. Those with great faith. or little f

God forgives our sins, there is no payment of debt involved.

We were bought for a price, not our sins. Jesus was a ransom for many. He died for us to free us from being servants of sin. It was NOT for our sins themselves. Sins.... are forgiven by God.

The Atonement places the focus upon the Father. It shows us that He is our saviour. That He and Christ were working together on the cross. The motovation of the Atonement was out of love. He did not recieve a payment, but rather chose to forgive sins to declare His righteousness.
Why did Jesus have to die? And why did he have to suffer so much?

Romans 3v23-26 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."
Jesus died to show God's righteousness. Jesus was a man just like us. With a fleshly nature. He got on the cross to crucify that nature. Showing to the entire world for centuries to come, that his flesh desevered to die, even though he committed no sin. He showed that God was right in sending him to the cross in condeming his flesh. And though that he declared God's righteousness.

Jesus prosessed a human nature that was inclided to sin just like ours. He never gave in because God was working in Jesus. He was tempted like us, but never sinned.

Heb 4v15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Jesus was tempted, but he always turned to God. He looked to his Father for strenght. Destroying the devil. He was even tempted to not go to the cross, he didnt wanted to, but he did anyway showing his loving obiedance. Math 26v38-39 "Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

And finally, he did kill those errages on that day. And that day was the death on the cross.

Heb 2v14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"

Notice the quadrupal enfasis on this verse. He, also himself, likewise. Here we see that the writer is diffenitly saying the Jesus was flesh, just like us. He took part in this nature so that he could destroy the devil. Jesus had a fleshly nature so that all thru his life he could deny that nature and finally put it to death on the cross. This was what his death was about. The "devil' here is about his flesh, the stem of tempation. "Sin in the flesh". Jesus show by his death that our flesh, not sin, but our sinful flesh has to die. Even though he was killed and never sinned, he showed that the flesh still had to die.

Romans 8v3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Same thing said in Heb 2v14.
Flesh was destroyed, God was victorious!!

Christianity tells us about an angry God who was angry at His son and made him "sin" on the cross. But when we really take a look at the atonement, we see a God who loved us. And wanted to rescue us for the glory of His name. The truth gives us a true picture of the atonement. Jesus was not our substitute. He was our representitive. He hung on the cross to declare God's righteousness. However, this means nothing to us unless we follow him. Jesus's death calls us to take up our cross and follow him.

If he was our substitute, we would be free to do whatever we want. He would have died instead of us and we would not have to die. We could live in whatever way we chose. Instead, the scripture tells us that the atonement was an example to us. We need to look at Jesus hanging on the cross and we need to say to ourselves, I need to do that!

I need to declare God's righteousness just as he did. We need to crucify our flesh and desires. We need to follow him.

1 Peter 2v21 "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps"

Luke 9v23 "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

Each day we need to crucify our flesh. Each day we need to consintrate on focusing on manifesting God and declaring His rightousness.
Mark 8v35 "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it."
We must give up our lives too. Buried by baptism. We dont literally have to hang on a cross to die, God in His mercy has given us baptism as a way to follow Jesus. Thru baptism we can bury our old man and be born again as a new man when we come out of the waters.

Roman 6v4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

When we are baptised, we are dying with Jesus and just as he was resurrected to a new life, we too, when we are raised up out of the water, we too need to live a new life. We are now "called" to manifest God. We are called to show God's charatorictics just as Christ did.

6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.'
Our body of sin is destroyed so we no longer live to sin. When we die with Jesus, we reconise that our lives are all about God. God deserves all of our praise and love. Our treasure is now spiritual.

Phil 3v7-8 "But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,"

The cross and a proper understanding of the atonement, leads us to God manifestation. It leads us to following the footsteps of Jesus. God sent Jesus out of love, He offers forgiveness for sins.

To atone for something, means paying a price for doing something wrong. What wrong did Christ do to require him to atone for it ? None. The atonement could only be for our sin. If God could just arbitrarily change the law, there would have been no need for the cross. He could just forgive all for sin, without the penalty for sin being paid. Then, as I said before, God didn't mean at the very first sin, " eat, you will die" "the consequences of sin is death". In your paradigm, the consequences of sin is forgiveness. Christ being our substitute in no way means we can freely sin. It means exactly the opposite. The Spirit was given to lead and guide. Paul tells us that Christ was the second Adam. His nature was that of Adam before the fall, not humanity's after the fall. Adam was not born into sin, nor was his body inherent with all the physical and genetic results of sin. We are born in sinful flesh. If we are born and live for only a minute, with no time to commit a sin, we still die as a sinner, we still need Christ's payment for our sin, so that our sinfulness was atoned for. Just like Adam, Christ had no propensity to sin, no inherent sinfulness ( the Reformers called this "depravity"). Like Adam, he was totally free to make a choice without the hindrance of total depravity. He chose not to sin. That choice, that life is imputed to us, as if we made the choice, as if we lived the life. This is the ONLY way, in this life we will meet God's standard. Sanctification in this life can never be total, because we are inherently sinful. In ourselves we always deserve the penalty for sin., Sin, all sin, of the believer, past present and future has been atoned for at the cross. The penalty for all sin, past present and future was paid for at the cross. Gods statement is perfectly correct, sin results in death, always. Christ's death for my sin, not the second death for which my sinfulness qualifies me. In the legal sense, when God considers my life, he see's Christ's, when he considers what I owe for my sin, he see's Christ's atonement. Without this, I can never be sinless, nor can the penalty for my sin be paid, except by me

 

[shmogie]

Hi Folks..

UKok ; Ah - so - according to the bible then - to sin is to GO AGAINST THE RELIGIOUS LAWS AND COMMANDS !!!

And WHO IS IT then that GIVES us these laws and commands..??... WHO "interprets" this gods will..??.... it is MAN that tells you you are first a sinner - and by definition you are ONLY a sinner if you DISOBEY THEM !!! Le tit sink in - deep.....

They INVENTED your lowly lost sinner status and forced it upon you... In truth - you are ALREADY exactly the same as they themselves are regarding a spiritual EQUALITY for NONE of them are speaking to his "god" directly !! ARE THEY..??.....

NO - for if they were then the christian religion would indeed be a united religion with only one faction - but as it is there are countless each claiming their own "truth" and each claiming to be this "gods ordained" - making it up as they go along - especially these days...

I should rephrase that slightly above - they didnt "invent" sin - but they did TWIST things that Christ Himself said about this eternal nature we ALREADY posses - and used His truth against us to keep us as said, subserviant and fully reliant upon them at all times.. So we have an actual situation now - where there is a legitimate spiritual condition facing mankind - a definate spiritual obstacle that we must overcome somehow - and yet those who profess to teach us about it dont actually have much of a clue as to what it really implies - OR how to remedy the situation - indeed - the second aspect of a remedy - they lead you FULLY OFF TRACK on purpose, deceive you with full intent (at the start this was intentionally so) for they WANT and need you (all) to be FULLY IGNORANT of Christ so they can hold you dominated with their bogus doctrines..

Today - even the common priest who read you the Sunday sermon - has NO TRUTH OF CHRIST - and everything he passes on to you, he has been TAUGHT AS TRUTH when he attended his "priest school"....NOBODY is communing with that "god" DIRECTLY - and I tell you truth here - that means they are ALL SINNERS just like the rest of us - because yes Folks - its all about DIRECT COMMUNION - at least - according to CHRIST that is the aim here - but according to religion, this direct communion is not possible at all as ONLY THEY are the gods spokesman, and us lot out here - NOT WORTHY and thus unable to comprehend "god" - for that they INSIST we need THEM and THEIR LAWS to save us from this spiritual condition... And so they emphasise this "sin" thing - without explaining it at all - and especially emphasise the punishment aspect to keep us fearful of the consequence if we disobey them - but really - according to Christ directly - there is no such place of "eternal damnation" and neither is there a "satan" character out to ensnare our Soul....The punishment aspect here - TOTALLY BOGUS AND FICTITIOUS !!!

Christ actually lays out the entire Creation process - heirachy of spiritual realms and their denizens - and NOWHERE is there such a "hell realm" mentioned... When it comes to "sin" and the "evil" it brings about - He says these things are OF THIS WORLD ALONE - products of mortal man and his broken mind and Self IGNORANCE... To say it plainly - sin - is indeed THIS mortal mind - ITS GUIDANCE and ITS desires - ALL of it - we have a BROKEN MIND - and so we FAIL to realise that which we are eternally.. It really is THAT SIMPLE - they made it so so complicated - but really - come to Me He said and find my yoke is light - my way is EASY He said - and it is as I shall show... Forget all that baggage doctrine and dogma they heaped on top - sin is actually very easy to detect and overcome - its all about SELF AWARENESS primarily

SIN - in its ORIGINAL meaning and context is a purely MILITARY term and is not spiritual per se - but a way of grading the competance and natural talent of an ARCHER and how GOOD he was at his task and how well he could HIT HIS TARGET.. Military - not spiritual...The army needs ARCHERS - as the most affective troop of choice - it is a SKILLED position - especially a prized marksman would be ELITE SOLIDER...A "sinner" was someone who basically could not shoot straight - like at all - it was a LOW LOW positiion in status compared to the archer - these people became hand to hand fighters - front rank cannon fodder - next to useless with the ranged bow and arrow forced to fight up close and personal - useless easily replacable - the highly sought after ELITE ARCHER remained SAFE up on the hill out of trouble, let the low life sinners take the punishment !!

So we see - sin applied to spiritual terms means a judgemnent then on ability of the individual - whether they can "hit the SPIRITUAL target" - and that target is DIRECT COMMUNION mortal MIND with DIVINE Mind....

BORN to sin they say - born WITHOUT the ability to commune directly with the Divine - SEPERATE from the Divine they teach - but this is FALSE...Not born into this condition - LEARNED to adopt it - taught it by "our parents" and teachers (hence we must come to hate the parents He said)....

Sin - is the guidance of the MORTAL and BROKEN -DIVIDED mind....Sin is the Self ignorance of this Mind - and I mean THIS mind right here reading this writing posts..This mortal mind IS sin - and in THIS broken state we simply cannot commune directly with the eternal Divine Source - are fully INCAPABLE at present of recognising that sublime energy.. Our Mind itself is NOT WHOLE and this literaly prohibits remeberance of Who and What we ARE eternally... We rely right now on this SURFACE mind alone - ITS desires - its circumstances - and see clearly - this is an EVER CHANGING - ever swapping contrary and divided - literally CHANGING MIND - and for most of us most of the time this is our full existance.. Thus we handicap pourself -adopt this mode of identity - kindo fforce dupon us just by livign the life we live -we soon FORGET OUR SELF -and this is SIN...

This forgetful broken mind brings about contrary actions - we do things we never intended - REACT to the world around instead of choosing how to RESPOND to the world around - and again,this is sin - guiidance and action from the BROKEN mortal mind.. We FORGET our Self our nature our intent ALL THE TIME we swap and change Who we are ot Be - and this is sin...All this commotion needs to be tamed - to be calmed - controlled - only then can we actually see Who and What we are underneath all that ever changing ILLUSION of Self.....

Let it sink in - ALL ABOUT MIND - all about SELF AWARENESS.. Ou Father is a fully Sentient enternal Mind that CAUSES Creation to happen - we too are a small replica OF that SAME Mind - come to know this obaout our Self He said - KNOW THY SELF fully - take this thinking mortal ever chanign mind - and hold its focus inwards deep inside seek out a calm still inner sanctuary - a silent and empty place....Literally - take surfacemind here and encounter the part we call "subconscious self" - allow the two to become one Mind and so the journey Home begins - and so we lift our own Self - SAVE our own Self always..This first inner union of MIND is just the start - it facilitates a "gateway" to open that allows direct access to "spiritual realms" as we now term them - domain of the eternal Soul where prophets and Angels come to give you truth directly, He PROMISED.. I could show you (all) original scripture to support this - but i assure you - it IS all about MIND and Self awareness AS an eternal Soul and NOT as a "mortal man"....

And look - crucially - it is always an INNER process of Self discovery - and it bares real and legitimate, tangeable results - the trusted Holy Ghost as many will know it is the DIRECT and actual consequence of His teaching - He only shows us the Way but crucially always, WE do it for OURSELVES - invoke its Presence DIRECTLY. and BECOME Him just as He advised...Therefore the religion simply cannot allow you to know it as truth for if we each knew this they would immediately be obsolete not needed - they cannot allow you to know that Diviniity TRULY lays within You and is just now ALREADY there awaiting you to realise it fully and claim your eternal status..

So they TWISTED His truth - pushed this "Sin" unworthy aspect - when really we are just unworthy because we dont know our Self intimately enough, and dont know therefore how to activate our full potential of Mind..We have self sabotaged our inherant Divine nature - adopted a broken ever changing mind in its place -and this itself is sin....see then - NOBODY ELSE can give you this INNER SELF REALISATION - NOBODY ELSE can make you encounter directly the truth of your own existance deep withtin the silence of your own mind - NOBODY else can free you from this self created, self imposed delusion of "self" that you believe the self to be..lol....- only YOU can do it for the self by starting and exploring on this inner journey of communion to uncover the true Self honestly and fully..

All creation flows from the Divine mind - Christ "died for our sins" - to prove this to us as He then RESURRECTED to show us that by FORCE OF DIVINE WILL He directl yCAUSED Creation to happen - to prove to us that the things HE did come frorm the Divine - the MIND and PRESENCE WITHIN that HE taught us how to attain DIRECTLY - its power and truth shown directly in that ressurection event... The Creation is formed from LIGHT - which is ENERGY as we call it - and we too are that SAME energy..The MIND of my Father CAUSES the creation to come forth as He declares it to Be - and we too SHARE that same MIND and same faculty....At present we have forgotten this, and this condition is "sin" - but through the process Christ advises we again REMEMBER and so claim our inheritance - mend the broken mortal mind and start the journey Home to become One with Our Father..

All about MIND Folks - mortal mind here and now becomes Divine mind etrenally - all about Self awareness - know thy self become fully known, and He promises all mystery will be revealed.. It all starts with that INNER journey of self discovery - and remember - all those EXTERNAL sources religions and gurus and teachers -can only ever and always lead you ASTRAY - the thign we seek is INTERANL - not out there in the world of man - they can NEVER show you that which you are at your core - for that only You alone are the authoirtiy - encounter the Self directly in the manner He advises - Know thy Self - seek always this living truth - Gnosis...For those with ears to hear...

Ah, a perfect exposition of the belief of the gnostics, the gnostics whom Paul considered heretics. They were and are heretics, concentrating on themselves instead of Christ. Heresy, intentionally twisting and making of no account Christ and the Gospel will not go unrewarded.

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> for a precise clarification unto this so called heretics
there is no literal written facts in the bible that is pointing unto the gnostics to be heretics

search every written words that is written literally in the bible and show some proof
if there is a single write ups about the so called gnostics to whom paul considered
as the perfect example of heretics

therefore
it is only fair that this writtings should be written in this way
as it is written
:read:
the whom Paul considered
a system of biblical interpretation taught by man
as the perfect example of heretics. They were and are heretics, concentrating on themselves instead of Christ. Heresy, intentionally twisting and making of no account Christ and the Gospel will not go unrewarded.


as they say
so as it is written
:read:
Ephesians 6:6
not in the way of service only when eyes are on you, as men pleasers; but as servants of Messiah, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men;
8 knowing that whatever good thing each one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is bound or free.

. ... just for a thought
if we may say so ... .


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[Ben Avraham]

~;> for a precise clarification unto this so called heretics
there is no literal written facts in the bible that is pointing unto the gnostics to be heretics

search every written words that is written literally in the bible and show some proof
if there is a single write ups about the so called gnostics to whom paul considered
as the perfect example of heretics

therefore
it is only fair that this writtings should be written in this way
as it is written
:read:
the whom Paul considered
a system of biblical interpretation taught by man
as the perfect example of heretics. They were and are heretics, concentrating on themselves instead of Christ. Heresy, intentionally twisting and making of no account Christ and the Gospel will not go unrewarded.


as they say
so as it is written
:read:
Ephesians 6:6
not in the way of service only when eyes are on you, as men pleasers; but as servants of Messiah, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men;
8 knowing that whatever good thing each one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is bound or free.

. ... just for a thought
if we may say so ... .


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> From here the sages said, "Silence is good for the wise man, a fortiori for the fool."
- Babylonian Talmud

thats also a good news literally


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[Ben Avraham]

~;>
Ephesians 6:6
not in the way of service only when eyes are on you, as men pleasers; but as servants of Messiah, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men;
8 knowing that whatever good thing each one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is bound or free.

You may consider my view of the Messiah heretic but because I am using of spiritual Logic to say that, individually, Jesus could not have been the Messiah. If you read Prophet Habakkuk 313, "The Lord goes forth to save His PEOPLE;
to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. That's Logical thinking with Scriptural basis. Besides, the individual is born, lives his span of life and
dies; are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

 

[Ben Avraham]

~;> the apostle of the gentiles
is pointing unto the law that the jews apply unto their daily life style that was given by moses unto them
thats a clear indication of what the verses that you've posted so as it is written. Joshua 8:32
He wrote there on the stones a copy of the Law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
now
as it is written Romans 2:13 People who merely listen to laws from God don't have God's approval. Rather, people who do what those laws demand will have God's approval.
14 For example, whenever non-Jews who don't have laws from God do by nature the things that Moses' Teachings contain, they are a law to themselves even though they don't have any laws from God.
15 They show that some requirements found in Moses' Teachings are written in their hearts. Their consciences speak to them. Their thoughts accuse them on one occasion and defend them on another.
16 This happens as they face the day when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge people's secret thoughts. He will use the Good News that I am spreading to make that judgment.

The Apostle of the Gentiles was Peter, not Paul if you read Acts 15:7. Paul was never an apostle at all. The Apostles were supposed to be 12, not 11 nor 13. When Judas got lost, the Apostles elected Matthias to replace his vacancy in the
apostolic group. (Acts 1:26) Besides, when Paul tried to apply to join the Sect of the Nazarenes, the Apostles rejected his application on the basis that he could not be even a disciple, let alone an apostle. (Acts 9:26)

No one can be a law to himself; the Law is one and the same to all. Jesus even said that to escape hell-fire, one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) And last, but not least, the Lord will not judge any one through Jesus because,
first of all, Jesus is dead and, no one once dead will ever be judged because God is not God of the dead but of the living. (Ecclesiasted 9:5,6)

 

[shmogie]

Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles, not Peter. This was clearly established at the Jerusalem conference detailed in Acts. Paul was an Apostle, declared so at the same conference by the other Apostles. THEY decided this, they had the authority to do so. Your opinion means nothing, especially when it is wrong. You make up an amazing amount of material, with absolutely no facts or authority on which to base it.

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> and
i agree to
the one who posted above this message
which makes a good news about your question
and
theres a good point also unto his comment
if you would observe the answer
if we may say so



:ty:




godbless
unto all always

The Apostle of the Gentiles was Peter, not Paul if you read Acts 15:7. Paul was never an apostle at all. The Apostles were supposed to be 12, not 11 nor 13. When Judas got lost, the Apostles elected Matthias to replace his vacancy in the
apostolic group. (Acts 1:26) Besides, when Paul tried to apply to join the Sect of the Nazarenes, the Apostles rejected his application on the basis that he could not be even a disciple, let alone an apostle. (Acts 9:26)

No one can be a law to himself; the Law is one and the same to all. Jesus even said that to escape hell-fire, one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) And last, but not least, the Lord will not judge any one through Jesus because,
first of all, Jesus is dead and, no one once dead will ever be judged because God is not God of the dead but of the living. (Ecclesiasted 9:5,6)

 

[Shaul]

All innocent and righteous blood atones for sin for a generation's sin. When there are no righteous people in a generation to die for that generation, school children die for that generation's sin. If the Temple was rebuilt in Jerusalem, then innocent lambs would die, which is better than human martyrs. This is all in the Talmud.

This is a gross misrepresentation of what the Talmud teaches. Please cite your references.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

UKok;

Nevertheless as coming the tokens, behold, the days shall come, that they which dwell upon earth shall be taken in a great number, and the way of truth shall be hidden, and the land shall be barren of faith..........................................

Do you see..?..Everything you say here and further on down - I absolutely agree with you - but do you see - these actions are all CONSEQUENCES and FUTURE EVENTS that will be bought about because just as it says - the WAY OF TRUTH WAS HIDDEN FROM MAN - man is NOW IGNORANT OF TRUTH and this leads to "sin" which is actually the guidance itself and the following of this lower mind with its limited broken divided focus, and ever changing ideas of "truth" and ever changing desires and ever changing self identity.. All this MIND CONFUSION leads DIRECTLY to contrary actions and divison and conflict out in the world... Everything mentioned by you above are the CONSEQUENCES of this TAUGHT and LEARNED Self ignorance...

The way of truth shall be HIDDEN - taken away ON PURPOSE - and it was done by those "religious leaders" who gave you the "bible" in its place - a TWISTED version of His ORIGINAL meaning...From Thomas a clear warning :

"The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so. As for you, be as sly as snakes and as simple as doves."

Pharisees - religious "authority" - SAME authority now same priest caste now still worshiping the same wrong "god" - the Pharisees still run the show Folks make no mistake... See here a clear warning - they ARE deceiving you on purpose..

"Why have you come out to the countryside? To see a reed shaken by the wind? And to see a person dressed in soft clothes, [like your] rulers and your powerful ones? They are dressed in soft clothes, and they cannot understand truth."

And again very clear - these "leaders" who you (the religious followers) give your power to - He says simply they DO NOT KNOW TRUTH cannot understand it... if they cant understand His truth - then how are they ever going to teach us anything but errors..??..They have NO Divine truth cannot understand it...But just to be clear :

"Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."

Wow - pretty strong words - He is ANGRY at this religious authority - truly despises it - instructs us to turn AWAY from it repeatedly and forcefully - tells us famously and confusingly for some, that we must indeed come to HATE our parents - and this is exactly what He means - despise THEIR TRADITIONAL RELIGION - take no part in its false spirituality He said - wrong god entirely - not the Father HE ALONE teaches us of.. Here he is most direct leaves no doubt at all :

They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us."

He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine

Again very clear - Christ is entirely SEPERATE and DISTINCT from this "god" they all already know and worship !! He EMPHASISES the point for clarity - states clearly that HE HAS NO AFFILIATION AT ALL with EITHER "emporer" or the "god they all know" - makes it very clear - HE Christ is SEPERATE from both their mortal world AND seperate from the one they call "god" !!! The Jewish "god" we call Yahweh /Jehovah - IS NOT OUR FATHER that Christ alone speaks of - and He has already warned us fully that all this duplicity in His name would be done ON PURPOSE to HIDE HIS TRUTH and replace it with their own !!

thats why your definitely mistaken as those words of yours regarding unto your own interpretation about sin
it does have a relationship unto a system of biblical interpretation taught by man but not this writtings as it is written
:read: John 5:34
But the testimony which I receive is not from man. However, I say these things that you may be saved.

Ah my friend - am I wrong really..?..Or it is as said - the actions of man follow the guidance of his ignorant divided mind and so the world is led to this situation as predicted.. Sin - the lower divided ignorant mortal mind - leads to actions in the world that we would call "evil" - obvious really.. But look closely - WHO is KEEPING US IGNORANT..???..Who is STILL promoting this twisted half truth..??...

And see my friend - Jon AGREES with me - doesnt He..?..,,I said and insisted it was all about the PERSONAL COMMUNION - mortal mind HERE directly attains access to the Divine for the SELF - not done by any other but DIRECTLY mind to mind.. Just as I say - the truth of Christ is NOT received from man or from a book or alearned doctrine - not at all l - it is given DIRECTLY in this manner always - and look - THIS IS GNOSIS - its very essence

And so - my point proved by John - because as said - are ANY of these so called spiritual leaders ACTUALLY having such a DIRECT spiritual communion...??...NO they are not - not even claiming it - but saying it is not possible as we are "lost unworthy sinners" and thus trapping you wholly with deciept !!

For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through revelation of Yeshua the Messiah.

Yes indeed - I know exactly what that means and can vouch for its legitimacy - except I call Him simply Christ my mate - none of that "religious baggage" needed really - it just gets in the way and deflects the path and obscures His essential truth - all about the personal direct communion - not about the "words and teaching of MAN"

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Shmogie; Belief or faith - are both merely ACADEMIC learned truths that come from an external source - the LIVING truth that you ACTUALLY ARE is only revealed by the direct experience - this again is the essence of Gnosis - and the living truth is the only LEGITIMATE truth to hold - the only POSSIBLE legitimate truth IS the truth of what ACTUALLY is - all else is by definiton a form of illusion - Gnosis is therefore the only truth that counts - and for that the direct experience is quite essential always.. Gnosis - the Divine Mind and the direct cause for the start of all creation - the intent of all creation - as this Divine Mind seeks this complete Self understanding

Ah, a perfect exposition of the belief of the gnostics, the gnostics whom Paul considered heretics. They were and are heretics, concentrating on themselves instead of Christ. Heresy, intentionally twisting and making of no account Christ and the Gospel will not go unrewarded.

Well I dont know about that - but I DO present a FAITHFUL recounting of Christs ORIGINAL TRUTH as He revealed it to me - if that makes Him and me to be "gnostic" then thats the way it is I guess...lol...but neither He nor I belonged to any supposed religion and indeed there is no such thing as a "gnostic religion" at all......Paul..???.....Ah my friend - Christ said to follow the legitimate INNER guide ALWAYS - the trusted Holy Ghost is our allie - not these outer contradictory sources

Concentrating on the self instead of Christ..?.. lol - my friend they have confused you entirely - understand His basic principal - core foundation of ALL that He said and taught - in the end He PROMISES - there will be NO SEPERATION between You and the thing You now seek - find it - encourage it - BECOME IT HE said - DIRECTLY - become it - not allegorically - but ACTUALLY without ANY seperation at all - MIND to MIND Folks - this personal communion is what it IS all about

"Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."

As always - for those with ears to hear.......

 

[metis]

The idea of Jesus being a "sacrifice", thus an "atonement" for sins, only can work on a symbolic basis. For example, which nature of Jesus was sacrificed: human or divine? If one answers "human", the problem is that human sacrifices are not part nor ever were a part of Judaism. If one says "divine", then it begs the question how can God be sacrificed to God? On top of this, the sacrificial system used is spelled out in Torah, and Jesus' crucifixion definitely did not follow those procedures.

IMO, Paul was using Jesus' "final sacrifice" in a symbolic way.

 

[shmogie]

You may consider my view of the Messiah heretic but because I am using of spiritual Logic to say that, individually, Jesus could not have been the Messiah. If you read Prophet Habakkuk 313, "The Lord goes forth to save His PEOPLE;
to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. That's Logical thinking with Scriptural basis. Besides, the individual is born, lives his span of life and
dies; are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

The Messiah is still alive, and will be forever. He gives everyone the opportunity to be saved, all are his people.

 

[Ben Avraham]

yep...we agree

I am glad you agree! Can I count with less one to slander the Jewish authorities with having executed Jesus on the cross?

 

[shmogie]

As to the nature of Christ, it was that of Adam before the fall. Of course Christ's sacrifice is in harmony with that defined in the Torah, blood spilled as an atonement for sin. Paul was not speaking symbolically when he said that without the spilling of blood there can be no atonement for sin. Therefore, the crucifixion was a literal atonement for ythe sins of anyone who accepts it as a free gift.

 

[shmogie]

I am glad you agree! Can I count with less one to slander the Jewish authorities with having executed Jesus on the cross?

The Jewish authorities demanded it of Pilate, who complied.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The Jewish authorities demanded it of Pilate, who complied.

You have only faith to keep that slander going. You must understand that the gospels were written by Hellenists former disciples of Paul whose highest aim was to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.