The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

[rosends]

Nope, opinions are like rectums, everybody has one

And if someone said that to you when you made the assertion you did, you'd feel like that person was necessarily wrong.

Same with me.

 

[atpollard]

Evengelical Christians are supporters of Evangelical Christians. They believe the gathering of Jews is a prerequisite to the second coming. They are helping Jews in order to help themselves. While the help is helpful, let's not pretend its not what it is. So I hope you don't consider this a reason to put Christians on higher moral ground than Muslims.

Since I am 55 years old and don't really care to be held responsible for events from before I was even born, would you have any statistics on the number of Jews and Muslims murdered by Christians in North America vs the number of Christians and Jews murdered by Muslims in North America?

Absent that, would you have any preference, as a Jew, between living in Christian Mississipi or Muslim Saudi Arabia?

Apparently, you feel there is no difference. I was just wondering if you really thought that through.

 

[Shad]

Christ said " by their fruit you shall know them " Of course the barbarian moslems, by their evil fruit, are the ultimate antithesis of Christianity and Judaism. Your point that an opinion is just an opinion is well taken. You have yours, to which you are welcome. As I have stated before, in the end, you and I will know beyond any doubt whose theology is correct. I have total confidence in mine.

Christians involved in chattel slavery, genocide, wars of aggression, wars of conquest. We can go digging into the closet of Christianity if you wish.

 

[shmogie]

Christians involved in chattel slavery, genocide, wars of aggression, wars of conquest. We can go digging into the closet of Christianity if you wish.

Dig all you want, it doesn't matter to me. What people do, which is direct conflict with what they say they believe, means they really aren't what they say they are. You confuse the actions of people with the teachings, they aren't synonomous. The teachings stand as exactly what they are and say. We might as well condemn all of humanity, the pious Jews included, for all the bad things that have been done by all people, in fact, humanity is condemned, fallen, all of it. My responsibility is to see that my actions reflect the teachings of the Christ, and as far as possible, influence others. The Jewish terrorists who blew up English women and children in that hotel during the mandate, were they Jews ? Did they represent Judaism ? So, dig all you want, it is a fools errand, and proves nothing, other than as the Christ said, TRUE believers are far fewer than professed believers. But we already know that

 

[Tumah]

Since I am 55 years old and don't really care to be held responsible for events from before I was even born, would you have any statistics on the number of Jews and Muslims murdered by Christians in North America vs the number of Christians and Jews murdered by Muslims in North America?

Absent that, would you have any preference, as a Jew, between living in Christian Mississipi or Muslim Saudi Arabia?

Apparently, you feel there is no difference. I was just wondering if you really thought that through.

I did. I'm not holding you or Christianity today responsible for the actions of its past. I am saying that one can't place Christianity as a whole on higher moral ground than Islam based on its actions for the last 0.05% of its existence. You can't say to me, "you'll know Christianity is better than Islam based on its fruit" just because there haven't been any Christian inspired pogroms in the last 50 years. Islam simply has a vastly better track record in that regard.

What it simply is, is that Christianity is finally becoming civilized. I don't see any reason to assume that this is a result of the religion otherwise it would have been this way the whole time.

You personally, as a Christian may (or may not, I don't know you) be one of the positive "fruit" of your religion. But there are likewise plenty of wonderful Muslims (even here in the east) that are the positive "fruit" of Islam.

 

[Tumah]

First, if you look at moslem TEACHINGS, the koran and hadith, you see a religion straight from hell. If you consider their views re taqiyya, you are unwise to believe anything they say ln relation to a non believer. Since a good moslem alleges the following the holy books, I don't trust them at all.

I don't know why you are bringing the Qur'an into it. You'll know the Qur'an by the fruit, right? The people who learn it were vastly more peaceful than the people who learned your "peaceful" NT.

Look at your own Torah, the butchery and bloodshed your people carried out, yet you think you can judge alleged Christians ? You characterization of Christian history is monstrously warped. The majority of Christians lived peaceful lives. The Crusades were the result of moslem violence for over two hundred years.

And I think you could use a history lesson on Christian history. Did you forget about the Inquisitions? The Black Plague? The pogroms all over Europe? The blood libels? How do you think the pope got his army for the Crusades- by quoting Muslim scriptures??? How about the Children's Crusade - can you show me the parallel to that in Muslim countries? How about the incredible Martin Luther?
The Crusades were not the result of Muslim violence for 200 years. They were the result of the church trying to reinstate its power over the people against the monarchy and using the Muslim conquest of a Christian holy land as an excuse for war. And while they were at it, they could also massacre every Jewish community they passed through.

Did I say God took his covenant away from Jews ? Actually though, he apparently did. He allowed the destruction of the temple, and thus the system of worship he ordained, and allowed the Jews to be expelled from their land he had given them. Rather harsh, don't you think ?

I don't see anywhere in the covenants that worshiping in the Temple is a pre-requisite to remaining under it. In fact, even after the covenants were made, Moses already prophesied (see the end of Deut.) that the Jews would go astray and would be punished accordingly. At no point in that prophecy do we find any mention of the covenant being ended as a result.

You may continue to live under that old covenant, that is your choice, you also may choose to be judged by it, It's up to you. I live under a new and better covenant, that you reject, your choice. Lets see Christians spent 1900 years killing and subjagating everything that crossed their path, Really ? Not true, Christians could not kill or subjagate without strong reason anyone. A person can call himself a fence post, that doesn't make him one.

Blah blah blah. Go learn history.

I assume you are telling me that somehow Jews are a step above the craven humanity that comes through in all cultures throughout history. What pap. The Jews have always been, historically, a weak people, unable to defend their homeland from repeated invasions from stronger peoples, till they lost their homeland and were dispersed throughout the world for almost 2,000 years. So they never really had the strength or power for the human cravenness and greed to come out, they couldn't conquer anybody. Thus, if I have characterized your point properly, it fails. The world returned Israel to the Jews, and I am extremely pleased that they have been able to keep it. As to the judge of all mankind, I KNOW exactly who it will be. I think you will be very surprised and dismayed.

I haven't said anything about the Jews. In fact I believe that a Jew who divorces himself from G-d can become even worse than either of you. That's why Jews in the Middle Ages who voluntarily converted to Christianity then turned around and become viciously anti-Jewish. And then there's the secular Jews who turned Russia into a living hell.

No, I haven't said anything about the Jews. I only said that you have no claim to be better than the Muslims.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Sorry Ben, you and I have nothing to discuss. Peace

Okay, as every thing is supposed to run to an end, at least, I am sure, you know there is no difference between my teachings and those of Jesus as we both speak from the same gospel aka the Tanach. But that's okay. Whenever you feel the desire in your heart to hear the truth, I'll be right here. In the meantime, peace unto you too.

 

[shmogie]

Okay, as every thing is supposed to run to an end, at least, I am sure, you know there is no difference between my teachings and those of Jesus as we both speak from the same gospel aka the Tanach. But that's okay. Whenever you feel the desire in your heart to hear the truth, I'll be right here. In the meantime, peace unto you too.

Yawn

 

[shmogie]

I don't know why you are bringing the Qur'an into it. You'll know the Qur'an by the fruit, right? The people who learn it were vastly more peaceful than the people who learned your "peaceful" NT.

And I think you could use a history lesson on Christian history. Did you forget about the Inquisitions? The Black Plague? The pogroms all over Europe? The blood libels? How do you think the pope got his army for the Crusades- by quoting Muslim scriptures??? How about the Children's Crusade - can you show me the parallel to that in Muslim countries? How about the incredible Martin Luther?
The Crusades were not the result of Muslim violence for 200 years. They were the result of the church trying to reinstate its power over the people against the monarchy and using the Muslim conquest of a Christian holy land as an excuse for war. And while they were at it, they could also massacre every Jewish community they passed through.

I don't see anywhere in the covenants that worshiping in the Temple is a pre-requisite to remaining under it. In fact, even after the covenants were made, Moses already prophesied (see the end of Deut.) that the Jews would go astray and would be punished accordingly. At no point in that prophecy do we find any mention of the covenant being ended as a result.

Blah blah blah. Go learn history.

I haven't said anything about the Jews. In fact I believe that a Jew who divorces himself from G-d can become even worse than either of you. That's why Jews in the Middle Ages who voluntarily converted to Christianity then turned around and become viciously anti-Jewish. And then there's the secular Jews who turned Russia into a living hell.

No, I haven't said anything about the Jews. I only said that you have no claim to be better than the Muslims.

As a told your co religionis, opinions, including yours, are like rectum's, everybody has one.

 

[Tumah]

As a told your co religionis, opinions, including yours, are like rectum's, everybody has one.

Well, that explains the problem. You think history is an opinion.

 

[shmogie]

I did. I'm not holding you or Christianity today responsible for the actions of its past. I am saying that one can't place Christianity as a whole on higher moral ground than Islam based on its actions for the last 0.05% of its existence. You can't say to me, "you'll know Christianity is better than Islam based on its fruit" just because there haven't been any Christian inspired pogroms in the last 50 years. Islam simply has a vastly better track record in that regard.

What it simply is, is that Christianity is finally becoming civilized. I don't see any reason to assume that this is a result of the religion otherwise it would have been this way the whole time.

You personally, as a Christian may (or may not, I don't know you) be one of the positive "fruit" of your religion. But there are likewise plenty of wonderful Muslims (even here in the east) that are the positive "fruit" of Islam.

I continue to be monstrously amused by the hovering of Jews in a Christian thread on Christian theology. Methinks you boy';s protesteth too much, you can take your mindless opinions.....................and put them where they go best, not here, Christian's have no interest in your whining, nor your opinions. For 2,000 years they have meant very little

 

[Tumah]

I continue to be monstrously amused by the hovering of Jews in a Christian thread on Christian theology.

You may not be aware, but when someone responds to a post, the "Alerts" link gets a red pop-up indicating it. I don't even know what this thread is about.

Methinks you boy';s protesteth too much, you can take your mindless opinions.....................and put them where they go best, not here, Christian's have no interest in your whining, nor your opinions. For 2,000 years they have meant very little

Of course Christians wouldn't have any interest in this type of protest. They only type of Jewish protests that Christians enjoyed hearing for the past 2,000 years was

"NOOO!!!!"
"PLEASE NOO!!!"
"G-D SAVE MEEE!!!"
"AHHHHHH!!!!!"
and of course
"NOT MY BABY / WIFE / HUSBAND / MOTHER / FATHER / BROTHER / SISTER!!!!!"

as they were beaten, tortured, murdered and otherwise massacred.

 

[Shad]

Dig all you want, it doesn't matter to me. What people do, which is direct conflict with what they say they believe, means they really aren't what they say they are.

Same no true scotsman fallacy used by Muslims

You confuse the actions of people with the teachings, they aren't synonomous.

Muslim would agree with you thus your attack is moot.

The teachings stand as exactly what they are and say.

Teachings as you see in the modern world. However history shows your modern interpretation is untenable. All you can do is ignore history.

We might as well condemn all of humanity, the pious Jews included, for all the bad things that have been done by all people, in fact, humanity is condemned, fallen, all of it.

You have no issue condemning Muslims. Maybe you should have thought about how weak your argument is along with how easily can be used against you.

My responsibility is to see that my actions reflect the teachings of the Christ, and as far as possible, influence others.

Based on a modern view that has already had it's bloody period and has been tamed. After all your church didn't exist a century ago.

The Jewish terrorists who blew up English women and children in that hotel during the mandate, were they Jews ? Did they represent Judaism ?

Yet you have no issues in taking a minority of terrorism by Muslims as a generalization of all Muslims and Islam. Double-standard, nothing more.

So, dig all you want, it is a fools errand, and proves nothing, other than as the Christ said, TRUE believers are far fewer than professed believers. But we already know that

Considering your view is illogical and you are unable to see this I would expect digging wouldn't effect you as you are incapable of evaluating anything without your overwhelm bias and double-standards.

 

[shmogie]

Well, that explains the problem. You think history is an opinion.

Actually, One of my degree's has a minor in history. So, lets use the historical argument re the Jews. A weak and insignificant people, enslaved and re enslaved, a tiny little nation rife with rebellion and corruption. Finally in weakness conquered and it's people dispersed to become perpetual victims to every culture in which they lived. Historically, a weak, insignificant people, with virtually no influence in world affairs, abandoned and sold into slavery again and again by their God. So now the descendants of these weak and insignificant people, still weak and insignificant, have the temerity to offer criticism of cultures who have done great things. Your arrogant theism is hollow, it has been replaced, your pride is in nothing, your history, is nothing, you really ought to look into the mirror of reality when you talk about being "civilized", you, allegedly being civilized, didn't prevent you from being perpetually exploited and constantly living in slavery. I want no part of your "civilization" it is weak, was weak, means virtually nothing to the rest of the world, and apparently cherishes it's history of being enslaved.

 

[shmogie]

You may not be aware, but when someone responds to a post, the "Alerts" link gets a red pop-up indicating it. I don't even know what this thread is about.

Of course Christians wouldn't have any interest in this type of protest. They only type of Jewish protests that Christians enjoyed hearing for the past 2,000 years was

"NOOO!!!!"
"PLEASE NOO!!!"
"G-D SAVE MEEE!!!"
"AHHHHHH!!!!!"
and of course
"NOT MY BABY / WIFE / HUSBAND / MOTHER / FATHER / BROTHER / SISTER!!!!!"

as they were beaten, tortured, murdered and otherwise massacred.

Perpetual victims are perpetual victims

 

[shmogie]

Same no true scotsman fallacy used by Muslims



Muslim would agree with you thus your attack is moot.



Teachings as you see in the modern world. However history shows your modern interpretation is untenable. All you can do is ignore history.



You have no issue condemning Muslims. Maybe you should of thought about how weak your argument is along with how easily can be used against you.



Based on a modern view that has already had it's bloody period and has been tamed. After all your church didn't exist a century ago.



Yet you have no issues in taking a minority of terrorism by Muslims as a generalization of all Muslims and Islam. Double-standard, nothing more.



Considering your view is illogical and you are unable to see this I would expect digging wouldn't effect you as you are incapable of evaluating anything without your overwhelm bias and double-standards.

You say much, but the result is little. Nonsense is still nonsense no matter how you say it.

 

[Tumah]

Actually, One of my degree's has a minor in history. So, lets use the historical argument re the Jews. A weak and insignificant people, enslaved and re enslaved, a tiny little nation rife with rebellion and corruption. Finally in weakness conquered and it's people dispersed to become perpetual victims to every culture in which they lived. Historically, a weak, insignificant people, with virtually no influence in world affairs, abandoned and sold into slavery again and again by their God. So now the descendants of these weak and insignificant people, still weak and insignificant, have the temerity to offer criticism of cultures who have done great things. Your arrogant theism is hollow, it has been replaced, your pride is in nothing, your history, is nothing, you really ought to look into the mirror of reality when you talk about being "civilized", you, allegedly being civilized, didn't prevent you from being perpetually exploited and constantly living in slavery. I want no part of your "civilization" it is weak, was weak, means virtually nothing to the rest of the world, and apparently cherishes it's history of being enslaved.

Great things Christianity did... Great things Christianity did...Great things Christianity did...
All I'm coming up with "fought wars" and "conquered nations". Maybe you had in mind "brought on the Dark Ages"?
I'm not sure if those great things come anywhere close to excusing the enormous amount of blood of innocents that they shed.

I also wonder if you think so.

I also wonder if you've read the news any time in the past century. Jews are nothing if not significant to the world. For better or worse. Enough to be in the news daily. This was already pointed out by Samuel Clemens over a hundred years ago.

I also wonder why you equate being civilized with not being weak. Perhaps that's part of the reason with why you are so comfortable with Christian history.

 

[Tumah]

Perpetual victims are perpetual victims

That's right. And only because of G-d covenant with us do we remain alive, despite the suffering He put us through under your ancestors.

 

[shmogie]

That's right. And only because of G-d covenant with us do we remain alive, despite the suffering He put us through under your ancestors.

He keeps you alive in mercy, not because you deserve it, in fact, you don't.

 

[Shad]

You say much, but the result is little. Nonsense is still nonsense no matter how you say it.

Hardly. As I said you are incapable of seeing your generalization so it goes right over your head when pointed out. It is beyond your capabilities, nothing more. This is evident by the dodge rather than pointing out problems with my argument.