The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

[Muffled]

Okay Muffled, the reason why it pleased the Lord to bruise Israel, the Suffering Servant by rejecting him according to Psalms 78:67-70 is because, by doing so, He would fulfill His promise to David to confirm Judah as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (Kings 11:36)

Daniel 12:2 has nothing to do with bodily resurrection. If you read Isaiah 53:8,9, when the Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living aka Israel and, graves are assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens up those graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel. (Ezekiel 37:12) That's called Aliyah. In the case of Daniel 12:2, those who decide to return, it is as if to eternal life in the Land of Israel which is an euphemism. Those who decide to remain in exile, it is as if to condemn themselves to reproach of eternal abhorrence and shame. That's what Daniel 12:1-3 is all
about.

Now, with regards to Martha, rather the opposite is true. She was Jewish no doubt, and for that
matter, she had no idea about bodily resurrection. The point is that the author of that gospel was a Hellenist and he forged the text to insert the Greek doctrine of bodily resurrection.

I believe Israel was dead when this prophecy was given. You do realize that the pronoun "his" refers to a person and not a group don't you?

I believe you think you have the ability to read minds of people long dead. How do you manage that?

 

[Muffled]

We do! We do accept his message! You Christians are the ones who do not accept his message. Jesus' message was according to his gospel which was the Tanach. His message is not according to the NT which is the gospel of Paul. Jesus' message was entirely according to
the Law and the Prophets. (Mat. 5:17-19 and Luke 16:29-31) The NT, the gospel of Paul, Jesus never even dreamed it would ever rise. I hope you agree with me on that.

I believe I don't agree. Thousands did accept the message but like the parable of the sower, some seed fell on rocky ground.

 

[Muffled]

Just a note -- Jews are not Christians. People who believe in Jesus are not Jews (no matter what they call themselves). It is highly debatable whether Jesus is at all mentioned in the Talmud though there is a separate, non-talmudic medieval book called Toldot Yeshu.

I believe Christians are truly Jewish and adherents of Judaism are not having strayed from being Jewish by denying their Christ.

 

[rosends]

I believe Christians are truly Jewish and adherents of Judaism are not having strayed from being Jewish by denying their Christ.

OK, then I will believe that Muslims are Christian and Christians are not, having strayed from being Christian by not understanding the role of Jesus.

Of course, Bahai are Muslims and Raelians are Bahai. I have a sneaking suspicion that Buddhists are Raelian but I can't check right now because I'm writing about how black is white and up is down.

 

[shmogie]

OK, then I will believe that Muslims are Christian and Christians are not, having strayed from being Christian by not understanding the role of Jesus.

Of course, Bahai are Muslims and Raelians are Bahai. I have a sneaking suspicion that Buddhists are Raelian but I can't check right now because I'm writing about how black is white and up is down.

Christian theology is the ultimate and complete fulfillment of Jewish theology. Jews are a special people with special promises from God. They missed the Messiah, but I refer to the covenants God made with them. So, as the World moves on with the true and complete and ultimate theology and revelation from God. Jews are a special case and how he deals with them is between they and God.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Christian theology is the ultimate and complete fulfillment of Jewish theology.

Satan merely works for God in Jewish theology and yet is the King of All Evil in Christian theology. As Christianity is wrong about Satan, how can you argue it is fulfilling Jewish theology when it is clearly 180 from what is actually said in Jewish theology? How can Jesus be the Messiah per Jewish theology if he doesn't qualify for the checklist they had to define one? (To be fair, you only have to be anointed of God ... that lowers the bar quite a bit.)

 

[Ben Avraham]

Pitiful Ben, truly pitiful. You are in a Christian thread on the CHRISTIAN doctrine of atonement. Which you are singularly unable to grasp, let alone comment about. Sigh, you speak of replacement theology, another term you don';t understand and mis characterize. So, by your own admission you have no interest in the thread, THE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE, you want to pimp your own insane ideas, and to pimp Judaism, which as Christians we reject as a obsolete and dead theology. You freely admit your goal is to create disruption in a CHRISTIAN discussion, which makes you a Jewish, theological, terrorist. Disgusting

I have never admitted that my goal here is to created disruption. You are the one building the disruption when you use a Jew called Jesus to try to convert Jews into Christianity. The problem with you all is that you can't stand the truth. You prefer that I come down on my knees and accept a Christian doctrine that you yourself cannot understand. It is not because I am in a Christian thread that my right to free speech must be denied. My ideas that you have named above as insane are the same as the ideas of Jesus when he was around. You don't believe it because you want Jesus to have been according to the gospel of Paul aka the NT and not the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. Well, let's make a deal; you stop addressing Jesus as if he was a Christian and I'll leave you alone. Don't forget one thing though: Jesus said that we are the light of the world, according to Mat. 5:14 and you prefer to remain in the dark. But if you make that deal with me, I'll leave you alone. I promise!

 

[Ben Avraham]

WRONG ! You are unable to understand that he was talking to ISRAEL when ISRAEL was still under the law. It totally changed with his death, resurrection and ministry to the world. He said I, ME, THE SON OF GOD, THE MESSIAH, have fulfilled, completed, made obsolete, finished the law for salvation. Just like with Abraham, now belief, faith, is accounted, imputed, for Righteousness. Sin is ANY factor in your life, thought, action, as described in THE NT that puts you out of harmony with God. You are SAVED by Faith, The Spirit leads and guides you away from sin. I know, you can;t grasp this. As your favorite Apostle, Paul, says, your mind is clouded. So you just keep jumping through those hoops, which you don';t and can't really do, and keep worshiping the ministry of death, and keep patting yourself on the back for what a great guy you are. That is between you and God.

Okay, when he said that the Law would never pass away as long as heaven and earth existed, whom was he talking about, Israel? Please, have mercy on yourself! Besides, if Jesus had meant to end with the Law with his fulfillment of it, why would he include in his gospel teaching that we all must listen to "Moses" aka the Law? (Luke 16:29-31) God have mercy on your lack of understanding of the truth! Now, regarding the Messiah, yes, the Son of God is the Messiah but, who is the Son of God? According to HaShem Himself, "Israel is My Son". (Exodus 4:22,23)

Sin is the transgression of the Law. Therefore, it is only obvious that if you transgress the Law, you are set out of harmony with
God. But the Lord has inspired His Prophet to teach that there is a way to set things right with God, so that our sins, from scarlet red can become as white as snow if we repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

 

[rosends]

Christian theology is the ultimate and complete fulfillment of Jewish theology. Jews are a special people with special promises from God. They missed the Messiah, but I refer to the covenants God made with them. So, as the World moves on with the true and complete and ultimate theology and revelation from God. Jews are a special case and how he deals with them is between they and God.

Islamic theology is the ultimate and complete fulfillment of Christian theology. Christians missed the final messenger, so the word moves on with the ultimate revelation from God.

See how easy it is to say that? Do you think that making that claim holds any water? If so, why shouldn't my claim?

 

[shmogie]

Islamic theology is the ultimate and complete fulfillment of Christian theology. Christians missed the final messenger, so the word moves on with the ultimate revelation from God.

See how easy it is to say that? Do you think that making that claim holds any water? If so, why shouldn't my claim?

Christ said " by their fruit you shall know them " Of course the barbarian moslems, by their evil fruit, are the ultimate antithesis of Christianity and Judaism. Your point that an opinion is just an opinion is well taken. You have yours, to which you are welcome. As I have stated before, in the end, you and I will know beyond any doubt whose theology is correct. I have total confidence in mine.

 

[shmogie]

Okay, when he said that the Law would never pass away as long as heaven and earth existed, whom was he talking about, Israel? Please, have mercy on yourself! Besides, if Jesus had meant to end with the Law with his fulfillment of it, why would he include in his gospel teaching that we all must listen to "Moses" aka the Law? (Luke 16:29-31) God have mercy on your lack of understanding of the truth! Now, regarding the Messiah, yes, the Son of God is the Messiah but, who is the Son of God? According to HaShem Himself, "Israel is My Son". (Exodus 4:22,23)

Sin is the transgression of the Law. Therefore, it is only obvious that if you transgress the Law, you are set out of harmony with
God. But the Lord has inspired His Prophet to teach that there is a way to set things right with God, so that our sins, from scarlet red can become as white as snow if we repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

Sorry Ben, you and I have nothing to discuss. Peace

 

[shmogie]

I have never admitted that my goal here is to created disruption. You are the one building the disruption when you use a Jew called Jesus to try to convert Jews into Christianity. The problem with you all is that you can't stand the truth. You prefer that I come down on my knees and accept a Christian doctrine that you yourself cannot understand. It is not because I am in a Christian thread that my right to free speech must be denied. My ideas that you have named above as insane are the same as the ideas of Jesus when he was around. You don't believe it because you want Jesus to have been according to the gospel of Paul aka the NT and not the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. Well, let's make a deal; you stop addressing Jesus as if he was a Christian and I'll leave you alone. Don't forget one thing though: Jesus said that we are the light of the world, according to Mat. 5:14 and you prefer to remain in the dark. But if you make that deal with me, I'll leave you alone. I promise!

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz. Peace to you Ben

 

[shmogie]

Satan merely works for God in Jewish theology and yet is the King of All Evil in Christian theology. As Christianity is wrong about Satan, how can you argue it is fulfilling Jewish theology when it is clearly 180 from what is actually said in Jewish theology? How can Jesus be the Messiah per Jewish theology if he doesn't qualify for the checklist they had to define one? (To be fair, you only have to be anointed of God ... that lowers the bar quite a bit.)

Because I have actually studied in depth over years the ENTIRE Bible, as well as Biblical Archaeology, the works of Many Scholars including the great Jewish scholar Abraham Joshua Heschel, and I have had formal theological training. Christianity isn't wrong about satan, you had better go to the OT and read a little

 

[Tumah]

Christ said " by their fruit you shall know them " Of course the barbarian moslems, by their evil fruit, are the ultimate antithesis of Christianity and Judaism. Your point that an opinion is just an opinion is well taken. You have yours, to which you are welcome. As I have stated before, in the end, you and I will know beyond any doubt whose theology is correct. I have total confidence in mine.

I guess by "knowing them by their fruit" Jesus meant, "if you start counting from ~1900's and onward when Christianity finally became civilized...then you will know Christianity by its fruit".

Because while Jews living among the barbarian Muslims may have had to move out of the way when a Muslim passed by, Jews living among the godly Christians had to worry for their lives when a Christian passed by.

So clearly Christianity and Islam are the ultimate antithesis of each other.

 

[shmogie]

I guess by "knowing them by their fruit" Jesus meant, "if you start counting from ~1900's and onward when Christianity finally became civilized...then you will know Christianity by its fruit".

Because while Jews living among the barbarian Muslims may have had to move out of the way when a Muslim passed by, Jews living among the godly Christians had to worry for their lives when a Christian passed by.

So clearly Christianity and Islam are the ultimate antithesis of each other.

Ah, so you judge a belief system by the people who allege they follow it ? Apply The Christs statement once again. He also said the way is narrow, and many who did great things in his name still would be lost. Actually islam is much closer to Judaism than Christianity. Work your way into heaven by doing, Genetic relationship through Ishmael, this is unclean, that's unclean, don't touch, don't eat etc., Stoning of adultresses ( yes, I know, Talmudic Jew's don't do it anymore) and on it goes. Here is the truth. We will all stand in the judgement as individuals, just me and the Righteous Judge. I won't be asked about what others did re the truth. I will be judged by my act's, deeds and my FAITH. As you will. I suggest you determine who now are the strongest supporters of Israel, by money and deeds. In case you don't know, it is Evangelical Christians.

 

[Tumah]

Ah, so you judge a belief system by the people who allege they follow it ? Apply The Christs statement once again. He also said the way is narrow, and many who did great things in his name still would be lost.

Ah, so when you said "by their fruits you shall know them" and "the barbarian Muslims by their evil fruit" you weren't making a judgement about people who allege to follow Islamic belief?

I also like how you try to divorce yourself of 1,600 years of bloody history that is the fruit of the New Testament. The way is narrow? It all makes sense. G-d takes His covenant away from the Jews who didn't follow His Laws for 1,500 years, to give it to Christians who spent the following 1,900 years killing and subjugating everything that crossed their path. Because the way is narrow.

Actually islam is much closer to Judaism than Christianity. Work your way into heaven by doing, Genetic relationship through Ishmael, this is unclean, that's unclean, don't touch, don't eat etc., Stoning of adultresses ( yes, I know, Talmudic Jew's don't do it anymore) and on it goes. Here is the truth.

Yes, that's true.

We will all stand in the judgement as individuals, just me and the Righteous Judge. I won't be asked about what others did re the truth. I will be judged by my act's, deeds and my FAITH. As you will.

That's also true. Although I suspect you are mistaken on the identity of the Righteous Judge.

I suggest you determine who now are the strongest supporters of Israel, by money and deeds. In case you don't know, it is Evangelical Christians.

Evengelical Christians are supporters of Evangelical Christians. They believe the gathering of Jews is a prerequisite to the second coming. They are helping Jews in order to help themselves. While the help is helpful, let's not pretend its not what it is. So I hope you don't consider this a reason to put Christians on higher moral ground than Muslims.

 

[shmogie]

Ah, so when you said "by their fruits you shall know them" and "the barbarian Muslims by their evil fruit" you weren't making a judgement about people who allege to follow Islamic belief?

I also like how you try to divorce yourself of 1,600 years of bloody history that is the fruit of the New Testament. The way is narrow? It all makes sense. G-d takes His covenant away from the Jews who didn't follow His Laws for 1,500 years, to give it to Christians who spent the following 1,900 years killing and subjugating everything that crossed their path. Because the way is narrow.


Yes, that's true.

That's also true. Although I suspect you are mistaken on the identity of the Righteous Judge.


Evengelical Christians are supporters of Evangelical Christians. They believe the gathering of Jews is a prerequisite to the second coming. They are helping Jews in order to help themselves. While the help is helpful, let's not pretend its not what it is. So I hope you don't consider this a reason to put Christians on higher moral ground than Muslims.

First, if you look at moslem TEACHINGS, the koran and hadith, you see a religion straight from hell. If you consider their views re taqiyya, you are unwise to believe anything they say ln relation to a non believer. Since a good moslem alleges the following the holy books, I don't trust them at all. Look at your own Torah, the butchery and bloodshed your people carried out, yet you think you can judge alleged Christians ? You characterization of Christian history is monstrously warped. The majority of Christians lived peaceful lives. The Crusades were the result of moslem violence for over two hundred years. Did I say God took his covenant away from Jews ? Actually though, he apparently did. He allowed the destruction of the temple, and thus the system of worship he ordained, and allowed the Jews to be expelled from their land he had given them. Rather harsh, don't you think ? You may continue to live under that old covenant, that is your choice, you also may choose to be judged by it, It's up to you. I live under a new and better covenant, that you reject, your choice. Lets see Christians spent 1900 years killing and subjagating everything that crossed their path, Really ? Not true, Christians could not kill or subjagate without strong reason anyone. A person can call himself a fence post, that doesn't make him one. I assume you are telling me that somehow Jews are a step above the craven humanity that comes through in all cultures throughout history. What pap. The Jews have always been, historically, a weak people, unable to defend their homeland from repeated invasions from stronger peoples, till they lost their homeland and were dispersed throughout the world for almost 2,000 years. So they never really had the strength or power for the human cravenness and greed to come out, they couldn't conquer anybody. Thus, if I have characterized your point properly, it fails. The world returned Israel to the Jews, and I am extremely pleased that they have been able to keep it. As to the judge of all mankind, I KNOW exactly who it will be. I think you will be very surprised and dismayed.

 

[shmogie]

I have never admitted that my goal here is to created disruption. You are the one building the disruption when you use a Jew called Jesus to try to convert Jews into Christianity. The problem with you all is that you can't stand the truth. You prefer that I come down on my knees and accept a Christian doctrine that you yourself cannot understand. It is not because I am in a Christian thread that my right to free speech must be denied. My ideas that you have named above as insane are the same as the ideas of Jesus when he was around. You don't believe it because you want Jesus to have been according to the gospel of Paul aka the NT and not the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach. Well, let's make a deal; you stop addressing Jesus as if he was a Christian and I'll leave you alone. Don't forget one thing though: Jesus said that we are the light of the world, according to Mat. 5:14 and you prefer to remain in the dark. But if you make that deal with me, I'll leave you alone. I promise!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[rosends]

Because I have actually studied in depth over years the ENTIRE Bible, as well as Biblical Archaeology, the works of Many Scholars including the great Jewish scholar Abraham Joshua Heschel, and I have had formal theological training. Christianity isn't wrong about satan, you had better go to the OT and read a little

I have had a little theological training as well and, yes, Christianity is wrong.

 

[shmogie]

I have had a little theological training as well and, yes, Christianity is wrong.

Nope, opinions are like rectums, everybody has one