The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

[Tumah]

He keeps you alive in mercy, not because you deserve it, in fact, you don't.

Well, I personally don't that's for sure. But thankfully, G-d gave us many righteous men whose merit keep us going.

 

[shmogie]

Great things Christianity did... Great things Christianity did...Great things Christianity did...
All I'm coming up with "fought wars" and "conquered nations". Maybe you had in mind "brought on the Dark Ages"?
I'm not sure if those great things come anywhere close to excusing the enormous amount of blood of innocents that they shed.

I also wonder if you think so.

I also wonder if you've read the news any time in the past century. Jews are nothing if not significant to the world. For better or worse. Enough to be in the news daily. This was already pointed out by Samuel Clemens over a hundred years ago.

I also wonder why you equate being civilized with not being weak. Perhaps that's part of the reason with why you are so comfortable with Christian history.

Well how do you determine being civilized ? The Egyptians certainly appeared to be civilized, while the Jews were living in caves. The Greeks certainly appeared to be civilized, while the Jews were locked in tribal warfare. I would think that a civilized people ought to be able to defend itself, The Egyptians could, for millineums. The Greeks could, for centuries, The Romans for centuries., the Jews, could never pull it off. Jews have done great things in science, medicine, music, etc. Did they do these things in Africa, Judea, arab lands ? What nations did they live in where they could live to their full potential ?

 

[Tumah]

Well how do you determine being civilized ? The Egyptians certainly appeared to be civilized, while the Jews were living in caves. The Greeks certainly appeared to be civilized, while the Jews were locked in tribal warfare. I would think that a civilized people ought to be able to defend itself, The Egyptians could, for millineums. The Greeks could, for centuries, The Romans for centuries., the Jews, could never pull it off. Jews have done great things in science, medicine, music, etc. Did they do these things in Africa, Judea, arab lands ? What nations did they live in where they could live to their full potential ?

I look at the dictionary:

civ·i·lize
ˈsivəˌlīz/
verb
past tense: civilized; past participle: civilized

1. bring (a place or people) to a stage of social, cultural, and moral development considered to be more advanced.
   "a civilized society"
   synonyms: enlighten, edify, improve, educate, instruct, refine, cultivate, polish, socialize, humanize
   "they were trying to civilize people who strongly resented the intrusion"
   • polite and well-mannered.
     adjective: civilized; adjective: civilised
     "such an affront to civilized behavior will no longer be tolerated"
     synonyms: polite, courteous, well mannered, civil, gentlemanly, ladylike, mannerly; More
     
     antonyms: rude, unsophisticated

 

[shmogie]

Hardly. As I said you are incapable of seeing your generalization so it goes right over your head when pointed out. It is beyond your capabilities, nothing more. This is evident by the dodge rather than pointing out problems with my argument.

You haven't presented an argument. You have presented a collection of inflated and biased accusations. Empty accusations fail. I actually agree with some of your accusations, but you want to pin them to a religious philosophy, rather than the evil of humans. Therefore, using the same stupid technique, I have proven Jews to be weak, unable to defend themselves, and an insignificant people, perpetual victims, abandoned by their God. We are using the same technique, for the same goal YOU wanted to achieve, Live with it.

 

[Shad]

You haven't presented an argument. You have presented a collection of inflated and biased accusations. Empty accusations fail. I actually agree with some of your accusations, but you want to pin them to a religious philosophy, rather than the evil of humans. Therefore, using the same stupid technique, I have proven Jews to be weak, unable to defend themselves, and an insignificant people, perpetual victims, abandoned by their God. We are using the same technique, for the same goal YOU wanted to achieve, Live with it.

Actually I have. I said you make a hasty generalization for your argument. That is a counter-point in which your argument makes fallacious leaps to conclusions. I pointed out your "no true scotsman" fallacy which is a counter-argument showing your selection bias.

As I said my point are over your head as you are incapable of evaluating, well anything you have posted so far.

Funny how you only counter the hits, when people act good it is because of religion, yet if one person does something wrong its evil of humans. Flipping this argument around I can easily claim the good people do is intrinsic to all humans thus has nothing to do with religion. Again not thinking your argument through to see if it can stand scrutiny.

Your religious views are not facts regardless of how much you wish to treat your views as fact. An alternative is that the Abrahamic god is fictional thus what happened to the Jews has nothing to do with a fictional god. Anyone can use projection.....

 

[shmogie]

I look at the dictionary:

civ·i·lize
ˈsivəˌlīz/
verb
past tense: civilized; past participle: civilized

1. bring (a place or people) to a stage of social, cultural, and moral development considered to be more advanced.
   "a civilized society"
   synonyms: enlighten, edify, improve, educate, instruct, refine, cultivate, polish, socialize, humanize
   "they were trying to civilize people who strongly resented the intrusion"
   • polite and well-mannered.
     adjective: civilized; adjective: civilised
     "such an affront to civilized behavior will no longer be tolerated"
     synonyms: polite, courteous, well mannered, civil, gentlemanly, ladylike, mannerly; More
     Good, your point ?
     antonyms: rude, unsophisticated

 

[shmogie]

Well, I personally don't that's for sure. But thankfully, G-d gave us many righteous men whose merit keep us going.

Agreed

 

[shmogie]

Actually I have. I said you make a hasty generalization for your argument. That is a counter-point in which your argument makes fallacious leaps to conclusions. I pointed out your "no true scotsman" fallacy which is a counter-argument showing your selection bias.

As I said my point are over your head as you are incapable of evaluating, well anything you have posted so far.

Funny how you only counter the hits, when people act good it is because of religion, yet if one person does something wrong its evil of humans. Flipping this argument around I can easily claim the good people do is intrinsic to all humans thus has nothing to do with religion. Again not thinking your argument through to see if it can stand scrutiny.

Your religious views are not facts regardless of how much you wish to treat your views as fact. An alternative is that the Abrahamic god is fictional thus what happened to the Jews has nothing to do with a fictional god. Anyone can use projection.....

Your point is asinine to the extreme. Perhaps all good people do is a result of intrinsic inbred, qualities, perhaps many things............... I believe otherwise, your fallacious points change nothing, my argument is simple, and irrefutable, a person who truly believes and acts on Christian doctrine presented in the NT cannot do anything but good, reasonable, and civilized his is IMPOSSIBLE for you to refute, thus, you are pissn' in the wind..

 

[Shad]

Your point is asinine to the extreme.

Nope as I was pointing out your fallacious generalization. Too bad you have no idea what logic is. Try again son. Maybe start with an introduction course in logic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization

Perhaps all good people do is a result of intrinsic inbred, qualities, perhaps many things............... I believe otherwise,

Your opinion only not a fact.

Your fallacious points change nothing, my argument is simple, and irrefutable, a person who truly believes and acts on Christian doctrine presented in the NT cannot do anything but good, reasonable, and civilized his is IMPOSSIBLE for you to refute, thus, you are pissn' in the wind..

I was making a play using your own points against you ergo you just called your own point fallacious. Impressive bit of ignorance you have demonstrated here. Try again son.

Except in the NT slavery is justified, war is justified, abandonment of families. Try reading your holy book as it obvious you have never done so. More so you are using hindsight 20/20 and projection of your belief regarding what individual's thought was good. Nothing more.

 

[shmogie]

Nope as I was pointing out your fallacious generalization. Too bad you have no idea what logic is. Try again son. Maybe start with an introduction course in logic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization



Your opinion only not a fact.



I was making a play using your own points against you ergo you just called your own point fallacious. Impressive bit of ignorance you have demonstrated here. Try again son.

Except in the NT slavery is justified, war is justified, abandonment of families. Try reading your holy book as it obvious you have never done so. More so you are using hindsight 20/20 and projection of your belief regarding what individual's thought was good. Nothing more.

slavery is not justified, ignorance speaking, war isn't justified, except for a defensive/righteous cause ( i.e. spiritual warfare) more ignorance speaking, abandoning families (pick up your cross and follow Me), are you truly as ill informed as you sound? You were making a "play", LOL, that is, your were spouting utter buffoonery, and flattering yourself by actually believing it made sense. You and the current 2 moronic presidential candidates would find much comfort and "logic" to share with one another, and I bet you actually would make sense to one another. Try again, boy

 

[Shad]

slavery is not justified, ignorance speaking, war isn't justified, except for a defensive/righteous cause ( i.e. spiritual warfare) more ignorance speaking, abandoning families (pick up your cross and follow Me), are you truly as ill informed as you sound? You were making a "play", LOL, that is, your were spouting utter buffoonery, and flattering yourself by actually believing it made sense. You and the current 2 moronic presidential candidates would find much comfort and "logic" to share with one another, and I bet you actually would make sense to one another. Try again, boy

Guess you never read the Pauline epistles in which slaves are told to listen to their masters nor that soldiers were never obligated after conversion to leave their careers as per John and the Centurion nor by Jesus. See son if a slave is told to listen to their master this is acceptance of slavery thus a justification for it. If war is never justified why is there not a single point about people not being soldiers at all... Read you holy texts as you obviously never have. You just admitted war is justified right after saying it isn't. Hilarious

"war isn't justified, except for a defensive/righteous cause"

Opps. You know that is a justification and refuted the previous point..... Like I said you are incapable of a great many things. I will add reading to my list.

Maybe read Luke 12:47 and Matthew 18:25.

Have you not read about hating one's family in order to love Jesus? Luke 14:26 and Matthew 19:29 (abandonment of family)

Another Christian that is incapable of actually reading their holy book, another meme believer. Hilarious.

The play was using your own argument against you. By calling such an argument fallacious you have called your own argument fallacious. A point I already made. Do you get it now? Probably not as you are incompetent.

Hilarious.

 

[shmogie]

Guess you never read the Pauline epistles in which slaves are told to listen to their masters nor that soldiers were never obligated after conversion to leave their careers as per John and the Centurion nor by Jesus. See son if a slave is told to listen to their master this is acceptance of slavery thus a justification for it. If war is never justified why is there not a single point about people not being soldiers at all... Read you holy texts as you obviously never have. You just admitted war is justified right after saying it isn't. Hilarious

"war isn't justified, except for a defensive/righteous cause"

Opps. You know that is a justification and refuted the previous point..... Like I said you are incapable of a great many things. I will add reading to my list.

Maybe read Luke 12:47 and Matthew 18:25.

Have you not read about hating one's family in order to love Jesus? Luke 14:26 and Matthew 19:29 (abandonment of family)

Another Christian that is incapable of actually reading their holy book, another meme believer. Hilarious.

The play was using your own argument against you. By calling such an argument fallacious you have called your own argument fallacious. A point I already made. Do you get it now? Probably not as you are incompetent.

Hilarious.

I am always amused by name callers who cant call names, they always find a way to allow their hostility to be expressed, by thug verbage. Paul said if you are a slave, seek your freedom, any way you can. That isn't supporting it, or can't you figure that out, boy ? Spiritual warfare between good and evil, you consider that an actual war, How ignorant are you ? Read the book of Revelation. it speaks of much war, are you foolish enough to contend that this is akin to the battle of Waterloo ? It was made clear, obvious, so even someone as warped as you can see, if you really try, that one's primary responsibility is to follow God, anyone who compromises this must be left to their own devices, you have problems with that ? I am incompetent ? interesting, you are a hot air purveyor of hopeless buffonery, a legend in your own mind. Hilarious, yes you are, you remind me of Basil Fawlty. An utter idiot, whom all could see, but he. While he primped about himself, everyone else laughs, just like you, BOY

 

[Shad]

I am always amused by name callers who cant call names, they always find a way to allow their hostility to be expressed, by thug verbage.

Hilarious given the fact that you have also done the same and before I did. Try again son

Paul said if you are a slave, seek your freedom, any way you can. That isn't supporting it, or can't you figure that out, boy ?

Which is not a condemnation of slavery and does not invalidate Paul advising slaves to obey their masters

Spiritual warfare between good and evil, you consider that an actual war, How ignorant are you ?

You said a defensive war, try again.

Read the book of Revelation. it speaks of much war, are you foolish enough to contend that this is akin to the battle of Waterloo ?

Doesn't matter as you have justified war on a far greater scale than Waterloo ever was.

It was made clear, obvious, so even someone as warped as you can see, if you really try, that one's primary responsibility is to follow God, anyone who compromises this must be left to their own devices, you have problems with that ?

Irrelevant tripe based on opinion, nothing more.

I am incompetent ?

Considering you were completely oblivious that I used your own argument against you yet called such arguments fallacious displays your incompetence.

interesting, you are a hot air purveyor of hopeless buffonery, a legend in your own mind.

Try not refuting you own arguments next time. Try again son

Hilarious, yes you are, you remind me of Basil Fawlty. An utter idiot, whom all could see, but he. While he primped about himself, everyone else laughs, just like you, BOY

Amusing with your double-standard about naming calling. Try again son. Hypocrites are hilarious especially when they are oblivious to the fact that they are.

You own tripe about name calling applies to you as well. Try again son.

 

[shmogie]

Hilarious given the fact that you have also done the same and before I did. Try again son



Which is not a condemnation of slavery and does not invalidate Paul advising slaves to obey their masters



You said a defensive war, try again.



Doesn't matter as you have justified war on a far greater scale than Waterloo ever was.



Irrelevant tripe based on opinion, nothing more.


Go away Basil, you are too arrogant and ignorant for me to have anything to do with you, are like a swine and no pearls you get BOY
Considering you were completely oblivious that I used your own argument against you yet called such arguments fallacious displays your incompetence.



Try not refuting you own arguments next time. Try again son



Amusing with your double-standard about naming calling. Try again son. Hypocrites are hilarious especially when they are oblivious to the fact that they are.

You own tripe about name calling applies to you as well. Try again son.

Hilarious given the fact that you have also done the same and before I did. Try again son



Which is not a condemnation of slavery and does not invalidate Paul advising slaves to obey their masters



You said a defensive war, try again.



Doesn't matter as you have justified war on a far greater scale than Waterloo ever was.



Irrelevant tripe based on opinion, nothing more.



Considering you were completely oblivious that I used your own argument against you yet called such arguments fallacious displays your incompetence.



Try not refuting you own arguments next time. Try again son



Amusing with your double-standard about naming calling. Try again son. Hypocrites are hilarious especially when they are oblivious to the fact that they are.

You own tripe about name calling applies to you as well. Try again son.

 

[Shad]

Go away Basil, you are too arrogant and ignorant for me to have anything to do with you, are like a swine and no pearls you get BOY

Try not to make errors such as calling you own argument fallacious. You mistake arrogance with confidence. Your whine is a dodge, nothing more.

 

[shmogie]

Blah, blah, blah zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Whyyyyy]

What sacrifice? He did not stay dead all that long.

Isn't maybe more accurate to say He sacrificed His passover weekend for our sins?

Ciao

- viole

He suffered enough to feel and say in the cross: "Father why have you abandoned me?"

 

[Desert Snake]

He suffered enough to feel and say in the cross: "Father why have you abandoned me?"

Actually, that's from a Psalm. It more likely means, He wasn't actually suffering.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

He suffered enough to feel and say in the cross: "Father why have you abandoned me?"

I think the question I would ask is, why the Passover?
The Passover was symbolic and very symbolic to them.
The original story was against pharaoh and the Egyptians and took their first born for not allowing freedom, even though joseph willingly stayed.
Why the hell did it get bad enough that Jesus had to be the lamb and the first born son at the same time.
Would they have lost all if it didn't happen?
I would just say what got bad enough.
What got mixed.
Where they playing eye for an eye just before He showed up?
philosophy of herod and edom in the mix?
I don't know.

 

[whirlingmerc]

yes, Jesus died for our sins and this is in fulfillment of Old Testament promises such as
the iniquity of the land being removed in a day such as in ZechariahGod would redeem

Yes Jesus would take away the iniquity of the land in a day as Zechariah promised