The Baha'i Faith's concept of "progressive" revelation

[CG Didymus]

No, because Baha'i law applies only to Baha'is.

However, if the Baha'i Faith is the truth and from God, then at some point in time God's Law will prevail over the whole Earth, right? Kind of like how Islamic Law controls Islamic countries. But since the Baha'i message is meant to unite all of mankind, then all of us are going to be under its jurisdiction, right?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Hmmm? So the "text books" of how we know about God and truth "could be significantly effected by interpretations"? So are they the "Word of God" or the word of man? And when you say the " New Testament and Hebrew Scriptures are also legitimate, but contain some minor inaccuracies"? Hmmm? Already you say that Jesus spoke in a figurative language that only Baha'u'llah could interpret. But on top of that there are some things that aren't accurate? Like what? The flood, 6 day creation, the Sabbath being forever, Jesus being killed on the cross then resurrecting?

Obviously, if the Baha'i Faith is correct, then the books used by Jews and Christians are pointing their followers toward the wrong direction. If the Quran is accurate than a look-a-like died on the cross for Jesus? If the Baha'i Faith is correct he didn't physically rise from the dead. So every thing written about seeing and touching the risen Jesus is wrong? When Paul says that if Christ hasn't risen from the dead that they are following an empty religion?

Now if you talk about people and cultures evolving and changing their beliefs to better suit the times, that's different. I totally agree with you, but you're not. You're saying that, somehow, all religions agree. Yet, you say that we really don't know what the early "manifestations" really taught. So then all religions accept Islam and the Baha'i Faith are, essentially, teaching things that were originally from the one true God, but are now they have been misinterpreted by man. So pretty much, they are all wrong?

Religions can be said to have two main parts. The religious Laws (or Sharia), and spiritual Laws. Both of these parts more or less are written in a plain and literal language, so they are clear to understand, and they were not misunderstood mostly. In addition to these two parts, there are prophecies and certain spiritual mysteries that were revealed in figurative language. Only this latter part was left to be unsealed (interpreted) by Baha'u'llah. It was intentionally written in figurative language by the prophets of the past. Baha'u'llah explains in details the reason why they were written symbolically. refer to Book of Certitude (Iqan) for details.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

However, if the Baha'i Faith is the truth and from God, then at some point in time God's Law will prevail over the whole Earth, right? Kind of like how Islamic Law controls Islamic countries. But since the Baha'i message is meant to unite all of mankind, then all of us are going to be under its jurisdiction, right?

It depends what Baha'u'llah said. Did He say the Laws are to be enforced on all, Baha'i and non-Baha'is? I don't know....But Baha'i Faith acts as per directions given by Baha'u'llah. Either way, Baha'i Laws are pretty advanced as they are revealed for this Age.

 

[CG Didymus]

Religions can be said to have two main parts. The religious Laws (or Sharia), and spiritual Laws. Both of these parts more or less are written in a plain and literal language, so they are clear to understand, and they were not misunderstood mostly. In addition to these two parts, there are prophecies and certain spiritual mysteries that were revealed in figurative language. Only this latter part was left to be unsealed (interpreted) by Baha'u'llah. It was intentionally written in figurative language by the prophets of the past. Baha'u'llah explains in details the reason why they were written symbolically. refer to Book of Certitude (Iqan) for details.

What is sad is that potentially the Baha'i Faith is the promise all religions have been waiting for and not that many people seem to care to examine the claims made by Baha'u'llah. So I'll keep asking questions. Could you explain more on how Hinduism and Buddhism are both considered part of the chain of religions in the progression, yet they differ so much to the Abrahamic religions... Mainly reincarnation, karma, the many Gods of Hinduism and, I guess, some forms of Buddhism don't even have a God figure. And, how Baha'u'llah fulfills prophecies to those religions considering how different they are from what the Baha'i Faith teaches.

 

[arthra]

Yes, I understand it's the Baha'i belief, but it's not the belief of most others.

What's required in my view is investigation... You study the scriptures and come to your own conclusions. Whether "most" people do that or not is solely up to them and we respect that...

It's called "independent investigation of truth (reality)" in the Baha'i Writings.

For me the challenge to humanity today is to establish a world civilization..... If we are to survive on this planet and our resources are to be shared equitably we need a world parliament and an international court of arbitration ... along with the elimination of prejudice... class, race prejudices need to be abandoned .. We need a system of education for the planet so everyone including women can be educated... these are some of the principles based on the teachings of Baha'u'llah and the culmination of what we would call "progressive revelation" for the day we live in.

 

[arthra]

What is sad is that potentially the Baha'i Faith is the promise all religions have been waiting for and not that many people seem to care to examine the claims made by Baha'u'llah. So I'll keep asking questions. Could you explain more on how Hinduism and Buddhism are both considered part of the chain of religions in the progression, yet they differ so much to the Abrahamic religions... Mainly reincarnation, karma, the many Gods of Hinduism and, I guess, some forms of Buddhism don't even have a God figure. And, how Baha'u'llah fulfills prophecies to those religions considering how different they are from what the Baha'i Faith teaches.

Reincarbnation is an ancient belief ... If you check though it appears in the Upanishads and is not found in the earlier Vedas.
I'll attach a few essays on the subject you've raised because they require rather lengthy responses... In our Writings we learn that attributes return to existence but not the soul.

As to prophecies of Buddhism and Hinduism you will find reference to the Kalkin avatara in Hinduism and to the Buddha Maitreya in Buddhism these we feel point to the future Manifestations of God in the texts of these respective religions.

As to the concept of God... We Baha'is believe the attributes of God are reflected in the creation and are most visible or clear in the Manifestations of God that appear from time to time. The essence of God is unknowable.

Here are some essays related to the Bhaa'i Faith and Hinduism and Buddhism:

Hinduism and the Bahá'í Faith

Buddhism and the Bahá'í Faith

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

What's required in my view is investigation... You study the scriptures and come to your own conclusions. Whether "most" people do that or not is solely up to them and we respect that...

It's called "independent investigation of truth (reality)" in the Baha'i Writings.

Yes, I understand how Baha'is think of it. But I myself reject the concept of 'scriptures' and so have no interest in studying them.

Anyway, I just find it a bit odd the way Baha'is assume that the only 'scriptures' are the ones embraced by Baha'is. As if all the world agrees on true scriptures vs. false scriptures.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

For me the challenge to humanity today is to establish a world civilization..... If we are to survive on this planet and our resources are to be shared equitably we need a world parliament and an international court of arbitration ... along with the elimination of prejudice... class, race prejudices need to be abandoned .. We need a system of education for the planet so everyone including women can be educated... these are some of the principles based on the teachings of Baha'u'llah and the culmination of what we would call "progressive revelation" for the day we live in.

Will practicing gays be allowed positions of power in the world parliament?

If not, I can't agree that Baha'u'llah's revelation is the latest and best revelation.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yes, I understand how Baha'is think of it. But I myself reject the concept of 'scriptures' and so have no interest in studying them.

Anyway, I just find it a bit odd the way Baha'is assume that the only 'scriptures' are the ones embraced by Baha'is. As if all the world agrees on true scriptures vs. false scriptures.

Aren't most religions that way?
I have yet to see something very negative associated with Ba'Hai, I like the fact that it is independent as well.

 

[sandandfoam]

I have yet to see something very negative associated with Ba'Hai,

The Baha'i attitude to homosexuality stinks.

 

[Desert Snake]

The Baha'i attitude to homosexuality stinks.

I haven't read their texts.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Aren't most religions that way?

Those that worship words (scriptures) tend to be that way. But a Jew might speak of the New Testament as a 'scripture,' whereas I can't remember a Baha'i ever speaking of the Book of Mormon as a scripture.

That's my experience of it, anyway. I've asked Baha'is if they will provide me a list of accepted scriptures, but the answer seems to be that scripture is scripture and non-scripture is not.

I have yet to see something very negative associated with Ba'Hai, I like the fact that it is independent as well.

If it interests you, look into it. Ask if a practicing homosexual or a woman can serve in their highest political body. For that matter, ask if an active gay can join their religion.

I'm not saying that the Baha'i are worse than other Abrahamic religions. But I wouldn't say that there's nothing negative about it.

What do you mean about it being independent?

 

[Desert Snake]

What do you mean about it being independent?

Theologically , and I thought culturally as well, idk, could be wrong.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Theologically , and I thought culturally as well, idk, could be wrong.

Theologically? That confuses me. I sure can't think of it as being theologically independent from Judaism and Christianity... much less independent of Islam. I mean, it claims to be the continuation of Islam, doesn't it?

 

[arthra]

Yes, I understand how Baha'is think of it. But I myself reject the concept of 'scriptures' and so have no interest in studying them.

Anyway, I just find it a bit odd the way Baha'is assume that the only 'scriptures' are the ones embraced by Baha'is. As if all the world agrees on true scriptures vs. false scriptures.

Since you reject the "concept of scriptures" that's your business... but for Baha'is we generally regard the scriptures of previous dispensations as follows..

The Buddhist and Hindu scriptures ... in a letter dated November 25, 1950 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, there is this statement: 'We cannot be sure of the authenticity of the scriptures of Buddha and Krishna...'.

Baha'is accept the Torah and the Gospels of the Bible:

"...the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses)."

(From a recently translated Tablet of Bahá'u'lláh)

"Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him."

(From a recently translated Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Bahá)

"That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur'án; in this day, the Bayan; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book -- the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 269)

 

[arthra]

AmbiguousGuy wrote:

Those that worship words (scriptures) tend to be that way. But a Jew might speak of the New Testament as a 'scripture,' whereas I can't remember a Baha'i ever speaking of the Book of Mormon as a scripture.

That's my experience of it, anyway. I've asked Baha'is if they will provide me a list of accepted scriptures, but the answer seems to be that scripture is scripture and non-scripture is not.

My comment:

We addressed that in my reply above on scriptures... Baha'is do not regard the Book of Mormon as an authentic scripture nor is Joseph Smith considered a "prophet".

AmbiguousGuy wrote:

If it interests you, look into it. Ask if a practicing homosexual or a woman can serve in their highest political body. For that matter, ask if an active gay can join their religion.

I'm not saying that the Baha'i are worse than other Abrahamic religions. But I wouldn't say that there's nothing negative about it.

What do you mean about it being independent?

My comment:

How believers conduct themselves in society we feel is an important issue so yes there are laws about having sexual relations outside marital relations and possible sanctions which could include losing their administrative rights...rights to vote in a Baha'i election or hold office. They would still be considered Baha'is however and have the opportunity to correct their behaviour.

The Universal House of Justice is not a "political" body nor are Baha'is involved in partisan politics... this applies to all the believers. We cannot be members of partisan political groups.

Regarding women not serving on the Universal House of Justice the following has been cited:

With regard to the status of women, the important point for Bahá'ís to remember is that in the face of the categorical pronouncements in Bahá'í Scripture establishing the equality of men and women, the ineligibility of women for membership on the Universal House of Justice does not constitute evidence of the superiority of men over women.

It must also be borne in mind that women are not excluded from any other international institution of the Faith. They are found among the ranks of the Hands of the Cause. They serve as members of the International Teaching Center and as Continental Counsellors. And, there is nothing in the text to preclude the participation of women in such future international bodies as the Supreme Tribunal.

Women on the Universal House of Justice

 

[Desert Snake]

Theologically? That confuses me. I sure can't think of it as being theologically independent from Judaism and Christianity... much less independent of Islam. I mean, it claims to be the continuation of Islam, doesn't it?

Like I stated, I haven't read their texts, but even combining those religions makes it different. If you mean influenced by, again, I haven't read the texts.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Baha'is do not regard the Book of Mormon as an authentic scripture nor is Joseph Smith considered a "prophet".

Thanks for being clear about that. As I say, it always strikes my ear as a bit strange when Baha'is claim that they respect all scripture. I think it would make more sense to say that Baha'is respect some scriptures.

But I understand that it's all political.

How believers conduct themselves in society we feel is an important issue so yes there are laws about having sexual relations outside marital relations and possible sanctions which could include losing their administrative rights...rights to vote in a Baha'i election or hold office.

So you're saying that if the gays are married, then they can hold office and vote in a Baha'i election?

They would still be considered Baha'is however and have the opportunity to correct their behaviour.

Most enlightened people these days see nothing incorrect in homosexuals having sex. You must know it's a weakness of the Baha'i religion. You're on the wrong side of history, as surely as slavers were on the wrong side of history.

Regarding women not serving on the Universal House of Justice the following has been cited:

With regard to the status of women, the important point for Bahá'ís to remember is that in the face of the categorical pronouncements in Bahá'í Scripture establishing the equality of men and women, the ineligibility of women for membership on the Universal House of Justice does not constitute evidence of the superiority of men over women.

Wow. So long as the Baha'i scripture proclaims men and women to be equal, it doesn't matter if women are treated as inferior to men?

Seriously?

Or are you saying that the administration has misinterpreted the scriptures and wrongly excluded women from the HoJ?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Like I stated, I haven't read their texts, but even combining those religions makes it different. If you mean influenced by, again, I haven't read the texts.

Sure it's different. Everything is different from everything else. But I wouldn't call the Baha'i faith 'independent' myself. It seems entirely dependent on the earlier Abrahamics.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thanks for being clear about that. As I say, it always strikes my ear as a bit strange when Baha'is claim that they respect all scripture. I think it would make more sense to say that Baha'is respect some scriptures.

Except respecting is different than accepting!

Wow. So long as the Baha'i scripture proclaims men and women to be equal, it doesn't matter if women are treated as inferior to men?

In our view the women are exempt from 'serving' on Universal House of Justice. We don't see it as being treated inferior. Let's also not forget that Baha'i Scriptures give priority to education of girls than boys in cases when a family cannot afford providing education for both.