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The Baha'i Faith's concept of "progressive" revelation

arthra

Baha'i
Yeah, I asked about married homosexuals. No answer.

The problem with settling into a religion is that one then has truth to protect.

Ambiguous:

Same sex marriages are not recognized in the Baha'i Faith... You might be interested in knowing about Baha'i marriage...

There are no charges or fees for Baha'i marriages.. There are no priests or ministers in the Faith. The ceremony is brief and involves simply reciting a vow that the parties will abide by the will of God before witnesses. Parents of prospective spouses must approve the marriage...A Baha'i can marry a non-Baha'i.

For more information see:

Marriage, Bahá'í
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Same sex marriages are not recognized in the Baha'i Faith...

Then the Baha'i arguments regarding homosexuality are dishonest.

I ask why gays are prevented from membership/authority in the Baha'i faith.

The Baha'is say that it's because the gays are having sex without being married, just like a cohabiting heterosexual couple would be treated. It's about bad behavior, the Baha'is insist -- not about Baha'i discrimination against gays.

So I suggest that the solution is to allow gays to marry. They they won't be behaving badly and you can let them have membership and authority in your religion.

Except that Baha'is don't allow gay marriage.

Why not just admit that you discriminate against gays? The first step to overcoming one's problem is to admit that the problem exists.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Why not just admit that you discriminate against gays? The first step to overcoming one's problem is to admit that the problem exists.

In our view it is not discrimination against gays. Like drinking and driving. If you want to have your driver's licence you must abide by the law, and don't drink while driving. If you want to have Baha'i membership card, you cannot have homosexual relationships....That doesn't mean you cannot attend many of the Baha'i gatherings. I think a gay couple can even attend Baha'i Temples and pray there, or for example attend Baha'i celebrations. But they cannot have membership card....this is a Law according to Baha'i Writings. There is nothing in Baha'i Writings that a gay couple are denied having rights to go to school, or work....I hope this explanation is sufficient.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
In our view it is not discrimination against gays. Like drinking and driving. If you want to have your driver's licence you must abide by the law, and don't drink while driving. If you want to have Baha'i membership card, you cannot have homosexual relationships....

I understand. How about black people marrying white people? Do you allow Baha'is to marry people from other races than their own? Can an Arab man marry a Japanese woman and still remain in your religion?

But they cannot have membership card....this is a Law according to Baha'i Writings. There is nothing in Baha'i Writings that a gay couple are denied having rights to go to school, or work....I hope this explanation is sufficient.

It's sufficient. As I say, it is my personal opinion that the Baha'i Faith is on the wrong side of history here. It's a flaw which will keep many westerners from embracing Baha'ism.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I understand. How about black people marrying white people? Do you allow Baha'is to marry people from other races than their own? Can an Arab man marry a Japanese woman and still remain in your religion?

Yes, Baha'i Faith promotes the idea that the earth is like one country and all mankind its citizens.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Yes, but not all citizens are equal. Those who are born as homosexuals don't get to vote -- at least as I understand the Baha'i system.

Homosexuals can get a vote and become president of a country or even king. There is nothing in Baha'I Scriptures denying them this right. As explained before, in order to have Baha'I Memebership card, one cannot practice homosexual relationships. It is ovsious if one does not have Baha'I membership card, he cannot participate in Baha'I elections for spiritual assemlies. But again, one needs to believe Baha'u'llah is Manifestation of God to want to have Baha'I membership in the first place. So if a homosexual person believes Baha'u'llah is Manifestation of God, he would obey His laws and would not practice homosexuality. It is just as if a person who wants to keep his Baha'I membership card, he cannot drink alchohal.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
... in order to have Baha'I Memebership card, one cannot practice homosexual relationships. It is ovsious if one does not have Baha'I membership card, he cannot participate in Baha'I elections for spiritual assemlies. But again, one needs to believe Baha'u'llah is Manifestation of God to want to have Baha'I membership in the first place. So if a homosexual person believes Baha'u'llah is Manifestation of God, he would obey His laws and would not practice homosexuality. It is just as if a person who wants to keep his Baha'I membership card, he cannot drink alchohal.

I wonder why Baha'u'llah objected to men marrying men but did not object to white men marrying black women?

Do you have any ideas about that, or must you simply accept whatever Baha'u'llah said about it?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Do you have any ideas about that, or must you simply accept whatever Baha'u'llah said about it?
Well, first, regardless if a Baha'i understands the wisdom behind every Baha'i Law or not, he would try to follow them and abide by them....


I wonder why Baha'u'llah objected to men marrying men but did not object to white men marrying black women?
I don't think there is a straight answer for this. To see why Baha'u'llah said that, we need to know what Baha'u'llahs mission was overall.
Baha'u'llah's mission was to create a new human according to the Will of God. This is the purpose of successive revelations of God; to create human gradually, by defining in every Age, how inwardly and outwardly we are supposed to be. In order to do this He revealed Laws that tells us do's and don'ts. So, according to Baha'i Scriptures, human has two natures; animal and angelic sides. If we free ourselves from the self and worldly passions, then the angelic side becomes dominant. But when the self and passion becomes dominant, animal side becomes dominant. These two natures are always opposite to each other. If one side is strengthen, the other side is weaken. So, it seems to me that in the definition of Baha'u'llah, homosexuality desire is of those self and passions that must be overcome with, rather than letting it become dominant. So, the question is, if this is a bad thing and must be overcome, then, why did God create some like that. I understand that, by reminding that one of the fundamental teachings of Baha'u'llah is that God tests and proves us in many different ways. So, one who overcomes the self and passions is passed the test of God, and is rewarded by gaining that attributes of God, which is the angelic side.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Buddhist and Hindu scriptures ... in a letter dated November 25, 1950 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, there is this statement: 'We cannot be sure of the authenticity of the scriptures of Buddha and Krishna...'.
A predominate teaching from those religions is reincarnation. Did Buddha and Krishna teach that, or is it only a "tradition", a wrong tradition of the followers of those religions?
Baha'is accept the Torah and the Gospels of the Bible:

"...the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses)."

(From a recently translated Tablet of Bahá'u'lláh)

"Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him."

(From a recently translated Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Bahá)

"That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur'án; in this day, the Bayan; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book -- the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 269)
So... did Moses write the Torah? And, is the Torah the accurate words of God dictated to Moses? If so, then the creation and flood stories are part of the "historical" narrative of what really happened?

Then it says "in the days of Jesus, the Gospel"? What is the gospel of Jesus? Most Christians seem to think it has something to do with having their sin debt to God payed for by Jesus? Could Jesus really have the authority to forgive sins? Obviously, I'm still not seeing how this "progression" is in anyway how the religious world works. Every prophet/manifestation claims different things. No way is there enough consistency between the religions for them to be a continuous progression of the spiritual truth of one God.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I quote:

#1727
"Regarding your question concerning Joseph Smith and the 'Book of Mormon'; as the Bahá'í Teachings quite clearly outline the succession of Prophets from the days of Christ as being Muhammad, the Báb, and finally Bahá'u'lláh, it is obvious that Joseph Smith is not a Manifestation of God."
―Lights of Guidance, pp. 511-512


And thus, we don't consider the Book of Mormon scripture.
Then what is the Mormon Church? They say an angel of God told Joseph Smith where to find the golden plates that he translated into the Book of Mormon. That isn't true? Mormonism is phoney? Smith made it all up? But wait, didn't an angel tell Mohammad the "truth" about God? Yet you accept him. Why is that? How is the Quran the true word of God but not the Book of Mormon? Some people think Mohammad made it all up, but you don't. You believe the Quran is the true word of God?

Oh, and one other thing, who has more followers? The Latter-Day Saints or the Baha'i Faith? And, who holds on to their converts better? Here you guys are supposed to be, essentially, the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. And here, a made up religion is more successful than the Baha'i Faith? What is going on? Oh, and one more thing, this also shows that you believe that some religious movements aren't from the true God and are wrong. So not all religions agree... some are man-made spiritual garbage.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Didymus wrote:

A predominate teaching from those religions is reincarnation. Did Buddha and Krishna teach that, or is it only a "tradition", a wrong tradition of the followers of those religions?

My comment:

I think earlier I mentioned that if explore the Vedas there's no mention of reincarnation..

See:

Does the Rig-Veda Mention Reincarnation or not ? : Part 1 | Hindu Human Rights Online News Magazine

The belief begins to appear in the Upanishads later...

also the Buddhist concept of reincarnation differs from the Hindu view.. Check up on the "Anatman" perspective. In Hinduism the priests promised advancement for the Atman through rituals and Sanskrit prayers..

See:

Anatman | Define Anatman at Dictionary.com

The Baha'i view was summarized well by Abdul-Baha:

Though the fact of "Return" is mentioned in the Divine Books, by this is intended the return of the qualities, characters, perfections, truths and lights, which re-appear in every age, and not of certain persons and souls. For example: If we say this lamp is the return of that of last night, or that the last year's flower hath returned in the garden, in this sense the return of the individual, or identity, or personality is not meant; nay, rather, it is intended that the same qualities and states existing in that lamp or flower, which are now seen in this lamp or flower, have returned. That is, the same perfections and virtues and properties which existed in the past springtime have returned during this present springtime. For instance: When one says, these fruits are the same as those of last year; in this sense, he hath reference to the freshness and delicacy of the fruit, which hath returned, although there is no doubt that the identical fruit of last year hath not returned.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 391 and in "Some answered Questions" on p. 218.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Didymus wrote:

Then what is the Mormon Church? They say an angel of God told Joseph Smith where to find the golden plates that he translated into the Book of Mormon. That isn't true? Mormonism is phoney? Smith made it all up? But wait, didn't an angel tell Mohammad the "truth" about God? Yet you accept him. Why is that? How is the Quran the true word of God but not the Book of Mormon? Some people think Mohammad made it all up, but you don't. You believe the Quran is the true word of God?

My comment:

There are really very different histories in my view between Islam and the Church of Jesus Christ of Later day Saints... In the case of Joseph Smith the Gold Tablets were discovered..and later "translated" by him and only a small group of his associates saw these Tablets.. Later the angel was supposed to have taken the Tablets away to heaven.

In the case of Muhammad there was a twenty year period where the verses of Qur'an were revealed around various issues and the followers recited the verses openly ... also the Arabic is pretty well the original revealed language... No discovery of hidden golden tablets that later vanish.

Baha'is don't recognize Joseph Smith but we do respect the good qualities of many Mormons.

Didymus wrote:

Oh, and one other thing, who has more followers? The Latter-Day Saints or the Baha'i Faith? And, who holds on to their converts better? Here you guys are supposed to be, essentially, the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. And here, a made up religion is more successful than the Baha'i Faith? What is going on? Oh, and one more thing, this also shows that you believe that some religious movements aren't from the true God and are wrong. So not all religions agree... some are man-made spiritual garbage.

My comment:

The Baha'i Faith is today widespread in over a hundred countries.. and continues in spite of intense persecution in Iran... We do not have an accurate count of the Baha'is in some countries because the Faith is not recognized there or being persecuted. The Nazis outlawed the Baha'i Faith as well as the Stalinist regime but it has outlasted both the Stalinist and Nazis..

See:

The Baha

and

Bahá'í Faith in Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mere numbers alone are an insufficient measure of the potentialities of the Faith. In the earlier centuries of Christainity it was in the minority...

:)
 

arthra

Baha'i
Yes, but not all citizens are equal. Those who are born as homosexuals don't get to vote -- at least as I understand the Baha'i system.

If you want to understand the "Baha'i system" you'll need to explore it further for yourself.. A day or so ago I think you wrote that you have no inclination to read or study scriptures and yet you seem to want to criticize various religions including our Faith.. My only suggestion to you is that unless you read more about the subject you'll not be able to understand it.

Someone who may have a homosexual propensity has every right as a Baha'i... just as people have propensities of many kinds.. It's the behaviour and the sexual relationship outside of marriage that we have an issue with in our Faith. We believe Baha'is are responsible for their actions and that there can be consequences.. Heterosexually oriented people face the same issue that a Homosexual would have.... if they have sexual relations outside marriage.

Ambiguous wrote:

I wonder why Baha'u'llah objected to men marrying men but did not object to white men marrying black women? Do you have any ideas about that, or must you simply accept whatever Baha'u'llah said about it?

My comment:

Baha'u'llah revealed that mankind is one and one of our principles is that racism should be eliminated so early in the twentieth century Abdul-Baha taught that racial prejudice was wrong to the Baha'is He met in the United States. Another aspect of this is that slavery should be abolished.

The Baha

Baha'is do indeed accept whatever Baha'u'llah revealed about it...
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Didymus wrote:

A predominate teaching from those religions is reincarnation. Did Buddha and Krishna teach that, or is it only a "tradition", a wrong tradition of the followers of those religions?

My comment:

I think earlier I mentioned that if explore the Vedas there's no mention of reincarnation..



Though the fact of "Return" is mentioned in the Divine Books, by this is intended the return of the qualities, characters, perfections, truths and lights, which re-appear in every age, and not of certain persons and souls. For example: If we say this lamp is the return of that of last night, or that the last year's flower hath returned in the garden, in this sense the return of the individual, or identity, or personality is not meant; nay, rather, it is intended that the same qualities and states existing in that lamp or flower, which are now seen in this lamp or flower, have returned. That is, the same perfections and virtues and properties which existed in the past springtime have returned during this present springtime. For instance: When one says, these fruits are the same as those of last year; in this sense, he hath reference to the freshness and delicacy of the fruit, which hath returned, although there is no doubt that the identical fruit of last year hath not returned.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 391 and in "Some answered Questions" on p. 218.
So either Krishna and Buddha are wrong or what was written about what they taught was wrong? Plus, the devil, hell, personal salvation are from Christianity. They were not in the original teachings of the Jewish Bible. So are those concepts wrong? Are those concepts from Jesus or did the writers of the NT put words in Jesus' mouth?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Arthra said:
It's the behaviour and the sexual relationship outside of marriage that we have an issue with in our Faith. We believe Baha'is are responsible for their actions and that there can be consequences.. Heterosexually oriented people face the same issue that a Homosexual would have.... if they have sexual relations outside marriage.
Jesus said that whoever looks upon a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. And, in the NT it says that adulterers won't go to heaven, along with homosexuals. Where do they go then? Jesus and the NT writers say they go to hell. But Baha'is don't believe in the Christian hell.

I suppose Baha'is would agree with Jesus and say that "purity" of thought is part of being chaste. However, who can do that? When the hormones kick in and a pretty girl walks by, is it even possible that a young man can abstain from having sexual thoughts about her? Can you do this? Can anybody? Or, is desire a natural part of life? Of being a human being, a sexual being, a human animal that has to have this inborn desire to procreate? It's hard to believe God expects people to only think sexual thoughts about their wife or husband.

But then, if a person has sexual thoughts about a person from the same sex, those thoughts are like a mental disorder? Something they can correct with the right treatment? So they have to admit they are sick? I guess the lustful person too, then. Okay, then I must be sick. But who isn't? I say the religious person that tries to be perfectly pure and chaste is the one that suffers from a mental disorder, denial... denial of their natural instincts. And, it's religion that makes them think they are sick for having those thoughts. At least Christians could blame it on attacks from the devil. Who do Baha'is blame? God? For making them that way? Themselves? For not being "pure" enough? And being too "animalistic"?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
It's the behaviour and the sexual relationship outside of marriage that we have an issue with in our Faith.

Hi........ I do not often bother Bahai's on RF, and you are witness to the truth of this.

But I do have four questions.
1. It is very easy to be married within the Bahai faith if all living parents sign the marriage document to show their complete agreement to the wedding. All that is then required is for the couple to both declare, in front of witnesses, 'Verily, we are content with the will of God'. Easy.
But........ what if a difficult parent, maybe an alienated non-Bahai parent, chooses to withold consent, and these two lovers cannot be joined in joyous togetherness? What then?

2. 2 Bahais want to marry, so they obtain parental signatures, make the marriage declaration in front of witnesses, and then live as married couple, but do not marry through the County, State, Country registry system. Is that OK?

3. So a Bahai can divorced after one year of attempted reunion. (?)
What if one spouse declares that the other did not attempt any reunion?
What do the Bahai's do about it?
Can they stop the careless partner from simply remarrying, or what?

4. This is slightly different to q2. Since marriage is a lawful requirement before Bahais can live 'as one', can Bahai's marry, divorce after a year, marry, divorce after a year, marry...... enjoying partner after partner after partner? ......... and only taking part in the bahai marriage, not in the country's registry system?
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
If you want to understand the "Baha'i system" you'll need to explore it further for yourself..

That's what I'm doing, right now, by questioning Baha'is.

A day or so ago I think you wrote that you have no inclination to read or study scriptures and yet you seem to want to criticize various religions including our Faith.

Sure. But what is your point? Do you think that the Baha'i Faith lives in your scriptures? I sure don't think so. It lives in those who label themselves as Baha'is.

I criticize (challenge) everyone, including the non-religious, by the way, and I expect no less from those who engage me, most especially here on a debate forum.

My only suggestion to you is that unless you read more about the subject you'll not be able to understand it.

I'm more interested in how Baha'is act than what they claim for themselves and their religion. A man can preach all day long about men and women being equal... but how does he actually treat women?

Someone who may have a homosexual propensity has every right as a Baha'i... just as people have propensities of many kinds.. It's the behaviour and the sexual relationship outside of marriage that we have an issue with in our Faith.

Then let gays marry. Problem solved.

But of course, you won't let gays marry. You won't let them marry and you won't embrace them unless they marry.

That's discrimination against gays. Why not just admit it.

We believe Baha'is are responsible for their actions and that there can be consequences.. Heterosexually oriented people face the same issue that a Homosexual would have.... if they have sexual relations outside marriage.

You're being disingenuous. Heteros can marry and eliminate the issue. Gay cannot marry and eliminate the issue.

Why try to dodge with your words? Let truth be truth.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
4. This is slightly different to q2. Since marriage is a lawful requirement before Bahais can live 'as one', can Bahai's marry, divorce after a year, marry, divorce after a year, marry...... enjoying partner after partner after partner? ......... and only taking part in the bahai marriage, not in the country's registry system?
Who cares about your other questions. This one sounds interesting. And God ordained, sort of, in a mischievous and round about way. I like it. And if one of the partners dresses up like a woman or a man, then gays can do it too?
 
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