The Baha'i Faith's concept of "progressive" revelation

[CG Didymus]

You know what... forget the whole thing. I see how the Baha'is are right. All the religions agree... originally. But the teachings all got mangled by the followers and transformed into something barely recognizable to God. So he had to send another prophet or manifestation to set things straight. Unfortunately, those manifestations didn't write anything. So people heard their teachings, misinterpreted them, and then they wrote that down.

So somethings in most religions are true and from God, but a lot of the stuff is made-up stuff from lying, manipulative people that wanted to control the masses? But the Koran is true and the Baha'i writings are true? So should we have all joined Islam, since all the other religions were already corrupted? Should we have gone on pilgrimage and walked around the meteor? God did want us to do that, right?

I'm so glad that all those things that supposedly Jesus taught are all lies. There's no personal salvation for your sins by believing in Jesus. Jesus is not God. He didn't physically rise from the dead. And, it's not him coming back on a white horse to kill all the evil people and throw them and the devil into the lake of fire. And, were not going to live with him forever in heaven.

So what does happen after this life? Something about evolving as spiritual bodies forever? That's not that complicated. Why didn't God just say that in the beginning? I'll bet all the evil people are happy. They got to kill people and do all sorts of bad things, but then in the spiritual world, they get to evolve upward, and, I suppose, reach a higher level someday. So they come back less spiritually progressed as an ordinary person that lived a boring, mundane life. How about those people? In the spirit world are they still boring and mundane? But the good people, the people that suffered in this life, that believed in God, even though it was probably things about God that they believed in, they get to go higher up, closer to God. Now that's cool.

 

[oldbadger]

Who cares about your other questions. This one sounds interesting. And God ordained, sort of, in a mischievous and round about way. I like it. And if one of the partners dresses up like a woman or a man, then gays can do it too?

Hi....

Well, I do care about all four questions, really.....
I can't answer your question..... one of the bahai members must do that!
But I would like answers to my honest questions....... let's see if I get some....

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Then let gays marry. Problem solved.
But of course, you won't let gays marry. You won't let them marry and you won't embrace them unless they marry.
That's discrimination against gays. Why not just admit it.
You're being disingenuous. Heteros can marry and eliminate the issue. Gay cannot marry and eliminate the issue.
.

I agree about the disingenuity, and I'm a Bahai, but the reason for this answer-that-is-no-answer is historical. For decades Bahais have dealt with the issue by saying chastity is required for both homosexuals and heterosexuals. It was a pat answer with some truth in it, recited so often that it's taking some time for Bahais to recognise that it's no answer, when the question is about same-sex marriage rather than extramarital relationships. There's heaps of guidance and policy statements for Bahais to read, going back to the 1950s, but so far as I know only one document that mentions the possibility of same-sex marriage. The rest all assumes that a homosexual relationship must be outside a marriage, and must be damaging the reputation of the Bahai community, so it can be dealt with under the heading of "immorality." It's taking a while to turn the ship around and find answers that relate to the current situation, where states are recognizing same-sex marriages and forbidding discrimination, and societies are coming to see same-sex couples in the same light as any other couple.

Back to that one exception, which is the first step that I know of towards formulating a Bahai response to the present situation. It's a letter from the Universal House of Justice (elected body that heads the Bahai community), which says in my paraphrase that Bahais should come to the defence of those who suffer discrimination, should not seek to impose Bahai standards on others, and should not support or oppose civil marriage for same-sex couples. (I take the latter as meaning, Bahai institutions should not get involved in campaigns for or against, which are likely to be partisan, and as a rebuke for certain National Bahai bodies that did get involved in anti-marriage campaigns). The letter also says "The Baha’i Writings state that marriage is a union between a man and a woman," which so far as I know is not strictly true (not source is given), but it reflects the understanding of the Bahai Writings that will be embodied in the UHJ's policies, at least for now.

This is only a first step, in that the current situation in many countries and states has at least been recognized, but it leaves most of the questions unanswered. What is a Bahai community to do if someone in a same-sex marriage wants to join the community? What if someone who is homosexual and who is already a member of the Bahai community wants a civil union, a civil marriage, or a Bahai marriage?

The 2010 letter is online here

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Back to that one exception, which is the first step that I know of towards formulating a Bahai response to the present situation. It's a letter from the Universal House of Justice ...

A well-written response. Thanks. If I were advising Baha'is, I would advise the UHoJ to (re)interpret their scriptures to discern the message within them that homosexuality is just fine -- as latter-day Mormon prophets had it revealed to them that monogamy was the best state of marriage.

Otherwise it'll be more and more difficult to see the Baha'i Faith as modern and right.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

A well-written response. Thanks. If I were advising Baha'is, I would advise the UHoJ to (re)interpret their scriptures to discern the message within them that homosexuality is just fine -- as latter-day Mormon prophets had it revealed to them that monogamy was the best state of marriage.

Otherwise it'll be more and more difficult to see the Baha'i Faith as modern and right.

"O thou who hast fixed thy gaze upon the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God! Know thou for a certainty that the Will of God is not limited by the standards of the people, and God doth not tread in their ways. Rather is it incumbent upon everyone to firmly adhere to God’s straight Path. " - Baha'u'llah

"Whatsoever the Creator commandeth His creatures to observe, the same must they diligently, and with the utmost joy and eagerness, arise and fulfil. They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal." - Baha'u'llah

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

"O thou who hast fixed thy gaze upon the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God! Know thou for a certainty that the Will of God is not limited by the standards of the people, and God doth not tread in their ways. Rather is it incumbent upon everyone to firmly adhere to God’s straight Path. " - Baha'u'llah

"Whatsoever the Creator commandeth His creatures to observe, the same must they diligently, and with the utmost joy and eagerness, arise and fulfil. They should in no wise allow their fancy to obscure their judgment, neither should they regard their own imaginings as the voice of the Eternal." - Baha'u'llah

If a Prophet tells me that God wants us to slaughter widows and orphans and barbecue them for the rich... I'll accuse the Prophet of getting God's message wrong.

Same with Baha'u'llah and gays. He just got confused about that part of God's message.

People who follow a prophet blindly, without questioning him, are not Godly people in my estimation.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If a Prophet tells me that God wants us to slaughter widows and orphans and barbecue them for the rich... I'll accuse the Prophet of getting God's message wrong.

Same with Baha'u'llah and gays. He just got confused about that part of God's message.

People who follow a prophet blindly, without questioning him, are not Godly people in my estimation.

It cannot be the case. God would not choose a prophet that could possibly confuse His message. He makes sure His message is delivered correctly.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

God would not choose a prophet that could possibly confuse His message. He makes sure His message is delivered correctly.

I'm sure it's comforting for you to think so.

But I know you're mistaken. Even I -- the latest and truest prophet of God -- sometimes get His message a bit wrong.

So the earlier prophets surely made many mistakes.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I'm sure it's comforting for you to think so.

But I know you're mistaken. Even I -- the latest and truest prophet of God -- sometimes get His message a bit wrong.

So the earlier prophets surely made many mistakes.

It is not comforting for me. Be sure about that! I already replied to your previous question, you made no replies. So my point still holds.

You use your common sense according to the standards that are common among people to weigh the Book of God. The standards of the Book of God is above human's standards. You think just because it doesn't make sense to you that homosexual relations be forbidden, then this message cannot be from God. It doesn't work that way.....and No Baha'u'llah couldn't get the message confused, because God made Him like a perfectly polished Mirror, then He Manifested Himself in this Mirror. So, we got exactly what God said.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I already replied to your previous question, you made no replies. So my point still holds.

What are you talking about? What point?

You use your common sense according to the standards that are common among people to weigh the Book of God. The standards of the Book of God is above human's standards.

No. I am a prophet of God. I just ask God whether any particular scripture is right or wrong. That's how I know that Baha'u'llah was wrong about homosexuals.

.....and No Baha'u'llah couldn't get the message confused, because God made Him like a perfectly polished Mirror, then He Manifested Himself in this Mirror. So, we got exactly what God said.

It must be comforting for you to think so. Sometimes I envy you. How wonderful to think that all we have to do is open a Book and read the answers to life's many questions.

No wonder so many prophets gather followers.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

...What point?....

Whatever points I made in post #70

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Whatever points I made in post #70

You didn't make a point that I can see. You just suggested that maybe God wants gays to abstain from sex in order to test them and help them become 'angelic.'

But why would God test the homosexual men but not the heterosexual men? Why not command heterosexual men to abstain?

Isn't it more likely that Baha'u'llah was a product of his time and culture? Homosexuality was disliked in his culture and so he wrote that into his scriptures.

 

[arthra]

oldbadger wrote:
Hi........ I do not often bother Bahai's on RF, and you are witness to the truth of this.

But I do have four questions.

1. It is very easy to be married within the Bahai faith if all living parents sign the marriage document to show their complete agreement to the wedding. All that is then required is for the couple to both declare, in front of witnesses, 'Verily, we are content with the will of God'. Easy.
But........ what if a difficult parent, maybe an alienated non-Bahai parent, chooses to withold consent, and these two lovers cannot be joined in joyous togetherness? What then?

My comment:

If one parent does not give their free consent the marriage does not occur. The only exception to that is if they are incompetent. For us unity in the family is important... When it occurs the marriage is most likely supported by family members.

2. 2 Bahais want to marry, so they obtain parental signatures, make the marriage declaration in front of witnesses, and then live as married couple, but do not marry through the County, State, Country registry system. Is that OK?

Baha'is must follow all civil requirements for marriage as well as what's required by the Faith.

3. So a Bahai can divorced after one year of attempted reunion. (?)
What if one spouse declares that the other did not attempt any reunion?
What do the Bahai's do about it?
Can they stop the careless partner from simply remarrying, or what?

When Baha'is enter a divorce process they go to a Local Spiritual Assembly that works with them to see that all measures are taken to save the marriage...such as counseling..If after a year what we call a "year of patience" the couple have not resolved their difficulties the divorce proceeds. If the other partner decides not to follow the Baha'i laws in this regard and flouts them...their administrative rights can be suspended.

4. This is slightly different to q2. Since marriage is a lawful requirement before Bahais can live 'as one', can Bahai's marry, divorce after a year, marry, divorce after a year, marry...... enjoying partner after partner after partner? ......... and only taking part in the bahai marriage, not in the country's registry system?

Well as above Baha'is follow the civil laws of the area in which they live as well as Baha'i laws... The purpose of marriage is two-fold..to have a spiritual union between the spouses and to raise their children in that framework.

So the above in caps is my understanding.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You didn't make a point that I can see. You just suggested that maybe God wants gays to abstain from sex in order to test them and help them become 'angelic.'

But why would God test the homosexual men but not the heterosexual men? Why not command heterosexual men to abstain?

Isn't it more likely that Baha'u'llah was a product of his time and culture? Homosexuality was disliked in his culture and so he wrote that into his scriptures.

We all have our tests to overcome. It is just different tests. Heterosexual must avoid sex outside of marriage, and overcome any temptation. That is a test. Yes, maybe it seems homosexuality is more difficult situation, since it basically means they must not experience sex in life, but after all, Baha'i Scriptures states the worlds of God are infinite, and this short worldly place is mainly the place of tests and delivering souls.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But I do have four questions.
1. It is very easy to be married within the Bahai faith if all living parents sign the marriage document to show their complete agreement to the wedding. All that is then required is for the couple to both declare, in front of witnesses, 'Verily, we are content with the will of God'. Easy.
But........ what if a difficult parent, maybe an alienated non-Bahai parent, chooses to withold consent, and these two lovers cannot be joined in joyous togetherness? What then?

I know a case that, a Baha'i boy and a Muslim girl wanted to get married. The girl's parents did not allow their daughter to marry the Baha'i guy, due to his religion no matter how much the girl tried. The spiritual assembly of Baha'is therefore did not accept their marriage, as the consent of parents were required. At last, they wrote to the Universal House of Justice, and in their particular case, UHJ allowed them to get married without the consent of the girl's parents.

 

[CG Didymus]

It cannot be the case. God would not choose a prophet that could possibly confuse His message. He makes sure His message is delivered correctly.

What? Then what Jesus said is true? He is the one and only Son of God and came to give his life to pay the sin debt of all of humanity? And he will return and cast all unbelievers and Satan the devil into hell for eternity? So all that is true? No, you say it's not true. Oh and Krishna and Buddha delivered their messages correctly? No, you say there is no such thing as reincarnation.

I don't get it. One minute you say all the previous religions are not following the true message of God. Now you say that the prophets delivered the true message. So somehow you're saying all religions are true but now they are all wrong? The prophet delivered the message God wanted him to bring but now all those messages have been corrupted?

That's the problem. Who's teaching who? People are playing too big a role in the making of a religion. It's not pure knowledge coming direct from God. That's why I don't see this falling in line with your grade school analogy. There is no progression like defined by the Baha'i Faith. Societies and cultures change and change their religions, sure. Judaism has changed. Christianity has changed. All of them have changed. They are progressing within themselves and compromising some of their beliefs to fit into modern times. But that's a lot different than what Baha'is are saying.

 

[oldbadger]

If one parent does not give their free consent the marriage does not occur. The only exception to that is if they are incompetent. For us unity in the family is important... When it occurs the marriage is most likely supported by family members.

Baha'is must follow all civil requirements for marriage as well as what's required by the Faith.

When Baha'is enter a divorce process they go to a Local Spiritual Assembly that works with them to see that all measures are taken to save the marriage...such as counseling..If after a year what we call a "year of patience" the couple have not resolved their difficulties the divorce proceeds. If the other partner decides not to follow the Baha'i laws in this regard and flouts them...their administrative rights can be suspended.

Well as above Baha'is follow the civil laws of the area in which they live as well as Baha'i laws... The purpose of marriage is two-fold..to have a spiritual union between the spouses and to raise their children in that framework.

Arthra, thankyou for your answers.

 

[arthra]

...

I don't get it. One minute you say all the previous religions are not following the true message of God. Now you say that the prophets delivered the true message. So somehow you're saying all religions are true but now they are all wrong? The prophet delivered the message God wanted him to bring but now all those messages have been corrupted?

That's the problem. Who's teaching who? People are playing too big a role in the making of a religion. It's not pure knowledge coming direct from God. That's why I don't see this falling in line with your grade school analogy. There is no progression like defined by the Baha'i Faith. Societies and cultures change and change their religions, sure. Judaism has changed. Christianity has changed. All of them have changed. They are progressing within themselves and compromising some of their beliefs to fit into modern times. But that's a lot different than what Baha'is are saying.

One of my favorite explanations on the Baha'i perspective was penned by Shoghi Effendi and I will quote it here because of it's relevance to some of the issues you raise... Shoghi Effendi had a perspective on the future of our Faith and it's mission so here it is well said:

Nor does the Bahá'í Revelation, claiming as it does to be the culmination of a prophetic cycle and the fulfillment of the promise of all ages, attempt, under any circumstances, to invalidate those first and everlasting principles that animate and underlie the religions that have preceded it. The God-given authority, vested in each one of them, it admits and establishes as its firmest and ultimate basis. It regards them in no other light except as different stages in the eternal history and constant evolution of one religion, Divine and indivisible, of which it itself forms but an integral part. It neither seeks to obscure their Divine origin, nor to dwarf the admitted magnitude of their colossal achievements. It can countenance no attempt that seeks to distort their features or to stultify the truths which they instill. Its teachings do not deviate a hairbreadth from the verities they enshrine, nor does the weight of its message detract one jot or one tittle from the influence they exert or the loyalty they inspire.

Far from aiming at the overthrow of the spiritual foundation of the world's religious systems, its avowed, its unalterable purpose is to widen their basis, to restate their fundamentals, to reconcile their aims, to reinvigorate their life, to demonstrate their oneness, to restore the pristine purity of their teachings, to coordinate their functions and to assist in the realization of their highest aspirations. These divinely-revealed religions, as a close observer has graphically expressed it, "are doomed not to die, but to be reborn... 'Does not the child succumb in the youth and the youth in the man; yet neither child nor youth perishes?'"

~ Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 114

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Same with Baha'u'llah and gays. He just got confused about that part of God's message.

It's not clear that he even registered the question of homosexual relations. He deals very clearly with paederasty, in the form of older men keeping a boy, but as there's no corresponding verse about women, it must be assumed that the issue is paederasty, not homosexuality, and this is the generally accepted interpretation in the Bahai community. There's another verse that refers to sodomy, and some Bahais think this is a euphemism (!) for homosexual relations, overlooking the fact that sodomy is not exclusively homosexual.

In any case, it is absolutely clear that there cannot be anything in the Bahai scriptures about same-sex marriage, as the possibility didn't exist back then. This means there's no need to change the Bahai scripture or reinterpret them drastically. New issues that arise are in the hands of the "House of Justice" (not necessarily the international HoJ, a national Spiritual Assembly can also be faced with a new issue):

Inasmuch as for each day there is a new
problem and for every problem an expedient solution,
such affairs should be referred to the House of Justice
that the members thereof may act according to the
needs and requirements of the time.
(Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 91)

One of those questions that is explicitly left to the HoJ to decide is the forbidden degrees of marriage. The one and only law about who can marry whom in the Bahai scripture says that one cannot marry one's father's wife (i.e., a stepmother), which gives us the general rule that relations by marriage are to be treated the same as relations by blood. Apart from that, Abdu'l-Baha writes:

...those unions between relatives that are not explicitly treated, are referred to the House of Justice, which will give a ruling based on the culture, medical requirements, wisdom, and the capacity of human nature. Culture, medical science, and human nature leave no doubt that in marriage, “distance is nearer than nearness.”

 

[Sen McGlinn]

I know a case that, a Baha'i boy and a Muslim girl wanted to get married. .... At last, they wrote to the Universal House of Justice, and in their particular case, UHJ allowed them to get married without the consent of the girl's parents.

Until 2010, only the Universal House of Justice was giving exemptions to the parental consent requirement: now National Spiritual Assemblies may do this, under guidelines set out by the UHJ in a letter dated January 19, 2010.